Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[postman]

Its clear just from looking at the traditional diets of people around the world that the need for VA is probably way overblown by people like WAPFers, but its also clear that there's no culture on the planet that actively goes out of their way to completely avoid VA-containing foods. Maybe thats because we actually do need some? Or maybe its because some VA-containing foods have other advantages that more than outweigh their VA content?

Really then what is the logic behind doing a zero VA diet? Why can you not have almost as good results by just bringing your ordinary intake down by 80-90%? It takes very little effort to cut the majority of VA from your diet, in fact most people would probably do it gladly, but trying to cut everything does result in a very restrictive and unbalanced diet.

Grant Genereux has been doing this for 5+ years and still has extreme reactions to even trace amounts of substances that just resemble VA. I think its fair to guess that this hypersensitivity is not going to go away with time, and if you plan on ever eating any VA-containing foods again, its probably best to just work on reintroducing them as soon as you find yourself missing them.

It's very simple, very sick people are getting a lot of symptom relief from cutting out VA and basically your theory is useless.

 

[Collden]

It's very simple, very sick people are getting a lot of symptom relief from cutting out VA and basically your theory is useless.

Glad its working for you.

 

[Pet Peeve]

Gawd, I love this thread. I haven't been this enthusiastic about anything health related since discovering Peat (and becoming drastically sicker afterwards, thought there was something wrong with me).

Btw, is honey ok to consume in large amounts?

 

[Lynne]

How long has Dr Garrett Smith been on a low VA diet?

I'm not sure, almost a year maybe, but I know he says he's still detoxing and was apparently very toxic to start with having used a lot of VA prods, high dose supps, etc in the past.

Edit: I forgot to refresh this page and didn't see the later replies.

 

[Tarmander]

Gawd, I love this thread. I haven't been this enthusiastic about anything health related since discovering Peat (and becoming drastically sicker afterwards, thought there was something wrong with me).

Btw, is honey ok to consume in large amounts?

It has a lot of galactose...so if you are prone to a lot of mucus production it might not be a great idea. Although honeys all have different amounts of galactose.

 

[Dolomite]

What is amazing to me is that a lot of little health problems that people attribute to age and that have caused me grief have resolved after only 3 months. Dry skin, clogged pores, hemorrhoids are gone for now and I hope it is for good. My detox problems seem to be eye and sinus related. I have lost most of the weight I gained from milk and OJ. I would like to share this with people I know who would benefit but I doubt they would get it especially if they aren't old enough to feel some misery. And if they are old enough they pretty much buy the mainstream excuses for their misery.

 

[thomas200]

on Grant's forum, somebody mentions that fat is needed to make excretion a lot quicker.

He also recommends eating fat with soluble fiber for better excretion

can some1 confirm if this is true?

 

[dwide]

What is amazing to me is that a lot of little health problems that people attribute to age and that have caused me grief have resolved after only 3 months. Dry skin, clogged pores, hemorrhoids are gone for now and I hope it is for good. My detox problems seem to be eye and sinus related. I have lost most of the weight I gained from milk and OJ. I would like to share this with people I know who would benefit but I doubt they would get it especially if they aren't old enough to feel some misery. And if they are old enough they pretty much buy the mainstream excuses for their misery.

Would you mind sharing what you're eating these days? I found a post earlier in the thread but wondering if you've changed anything up.

 

[johann1988]

Regarding to the interview from 21 May with ray peat.
Don't know why ray peat always blaim meat and fish for their high phosphor. In the end you need a certain amount of protein and meat and fish have a much better protein/phosphor ratio than milk, cheese, eggs, nuts, legumes, potatoes, fruits, grains (btw refined grains also have a good p/ph ratio)

 

[postman]

Would you mind sharing what you're eating these days? I found a post earlier in the thread but wondering if you've changed anything up.

What does anyone eat in here btw

 

[Collden]

Interesting, there are numerous scientific reports that the "Sign of Hertoghe", thinning of eyebrows, especially the outer third, which is often taken as an indicator of hypothyroidism, is also reliably caused by VA toxicity. Maybe this is actually a more common cause of the "hypothyroid look" with pale and sparse hair? I know I still have thin eyebrows and pale sparse body hair in general and used to pound high VA foods like crazy during my more orthorexic years.

http://vorga.org/16-2-265.full.pdf
"Her hair was very sparse and coarse, with marked thinning in the temporal areas; axillary hair, pubic hair and eyebrows were nonexistent."

vitamin A spectrum: from deficiency to toxicity
"My interest in vitamin A toxicity was sparked after treating a patient when I was a gastroenterology fellow at the University of Chicago. This patient had liver disease of obscure origin, but also had some odd symptoms: thinning of eyebrows; sparse, coarse hair; cheilosis; and bulging eyes (Figure 4)."

Hypervitaminosis A altering the lipid profile in a hypercholesterolemic patient. - PubMed - NCBI
"A year after stopping the vitamin A supplements, his lipid profile had returned to the values recorded during atorvastatin therapy alone (Fig. 1). Over several months, his eyebrows returned to their normal state."

Alopecia and Associated Toxic Agents: A Systematic Review
"Vitamin A at toxic levels reportedly causes scalp alopecia as well as loss of eyelashes and eyebrows"

Eyebrow loss: clinical review. - PubMed - NCBI
"Eyebrow alopecia may also result from intoxication with retinol.[77] While individual sensitivity to retinol varies, intoxication may occur after taking five times more than the recommended daily allowance (4000IU for women, 5000IU for men).[78] Chronic intoxication produces insidious symptoms (fatigue, malaise, weight loss), which unfortunately complicate diagnosis. Patients may present to the dermatologist for evaluation of cutaneous symptoms including eyebrow thinning as well as pruritus, seborrhea, and dystrophic spooning nails."

Madarosis: A Marker of Many Maladies
"Hair loss can occur either in acute or chronic hypervitaminosis A. Loss of eyebrows and eyelashes can occur in chronic hypervitaminosis A which can occur in a number of conditions, either due to enthusiastic overdosing or due to intentional prescription of high doses for diseases such as acne, retinal disorders with night blindness, and others."

 

[Collden]

Maybe I should just read the books, but what is the rationale for how long VA detox should take?

If the average content of VA in beef liver is anything to go by, the average human liver will contain roughly 3 million IUs of VA, which if you assume the elimination rate of VA is close to the RDA (3000 IU/day) , means it would take almost 3 years of a zero VA diet to completely empty the liver. And during this time you would constantly experience symptoms of VA toxicity due to more liver VA being dumped into circulation.

 

[Orion]

Maybe I should just read the books, but what is the rationale for how long VA detox should take?

If the average content of VA in beef liver is anything to go by, the average human liver will contain roughly 3 million IUs of VA, which if you assume the elimination rate of VA is close to the RDA (3000 IU/day) , means it would take almost 3 years of a zero VA diet to completely empty the liver. And during this time you would constantly experience symptoms of VA toxicity due to more liver VA being dumped into circulation.

Some discussion here: Depletion Rate a ~2yr average could the consensus, depending on liver size, age, mineral status, daily carotenoid and preformed VA intake, etc.

My eyelashes and eyebrows have been filling back in nicely over the last 7 months doing low to zero VA.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I'm putting together a short questionnaire to help get some testimonials and information on peoples experiences. If you post on this thread regularly I'll probably be sending you a message sometime soon.

The questions are really just to give some ideas to help people write or record their experiences so far. with permission I'll go ahead and either upload the media to YouTube or read the account and upload that. I'm looking for some insight regarding questions to ask. This is a really great opportunity to identify some trends in peoples experiences on low VA and get a better understanding of what's going on here and strategies to improve the process.

I feel testimonials can really help build a feeling of solidarity and security in pursuing a low VA diet. I think half the problem at the moment is that it is such uncharted territory that it is easy to become disheartened or uncertain leading to questioning the whole thing and where it is leading. knowing others are going through the same thing, I believe will help a lot of us tremendously.

So far it goes something like this:



What is your background in exploring health and well being

How did you find Grant's theory of VA toxicity

How long have you been following a low VA diet

How close to 0 Va is your diet, do you slip up and do you feel it makes a big difference for you personally

What benefits do you feel you have experienced on a Low VA diet so far

Have you experienced detox symptoms and do you feel they are worse when you lower or raise your VA intake, eat certain foods, high fat meals etc.

What symptoms have you experienced, do you feel they are getting better and what were the first few weeks like for you

Of the supplements you take if any, which do you feel improves your symptoms the most relative to VA, or not

Do you intend to continue on a low VA diet indefinitely or is there some point you wish to reach before going back to a less restrictive diet

Which foods comprise the bulk of your diet and do you have any recipes you feel others might benefit from




This is really rough and off the cuff. I'm sure there are a few really interesting ones we can add in. again this is just a general framework for the response. Please if you are contacted or would like to contribute feel free to respond in ANY way you see fit irrelevant of structure, these questions, being supportive of the theory etc.

 

[Collden]

I eyelashes and eyebrows have been filling back in nicely over the last 7 months doing low to zero VA.

That is awesome. Ever since learning about the Sign of Hertoghe and starting to observe the close correlation between thinning eyebrows and poor thyroid function I've kind of viewed eyebrow regrowth as the litmus test of true health restoration, but its exceedingly rare to see anyone in the health community with thinning eyebrows managing to reverse that. Even in the Ray Peat community the only person I know who did it is this Nick Warcholack guy.

 

[postman]

I've experimented a bit with ultraskimmed <0.1% fat milk, seems fine to me in terms of VA. I get more VA symptoms from eating beef.

 

[Dolomite]

Would you mind sharing what you're eating these days? I found a post earlier in the thread but wondering if you've changed anything up.

Russet potatoes
Egg white
Beef
Chicken breast
Rice, mostly jasmine
Black or pinto beans
White corn tortillas
Brown rice cakes
Strawberry or blackberry fruit spread
White sugar
Collagen, gelatin
Cauliflower
Mushrooms
Gluten free pretzels
Raisins
Dates
Mission figs, dried
Apples
Kiwi
Strawberry
Pineapple
Small amounts of butter or olive oil
Hard candy
Instant coffee
Occasionally a tablespoon of vanilla ice cream
I eat almost all of these things every day just not huge quantities. I don't have any interest in high fat foods. And I lost my desire for chocolate. This mostly low a but it works with my schedule and I enjoy it more than the high beta carotene "healthy" vegetables I ate for decades. And it may have nutrient or mineral gaps but I don't really care. I use eggshell powder, magnesium, vitamin c, some b vitamins, and bromelain.

 

[Dolomite]

Russet potatoes
Egg white
Beef
Chicken breast
Rice, mostly jasmine
Black or pinto beans
White corn tortillas
Brown rice cakes
Strawberry or blackberry fruit spread
White sugar
Collagen, gelatin
Cauliflower
Mushrooms
Gluten free pretzels
Raisins
Dates
Mission figs, dried
Apples
Kiwi
Strawberry
Pineapple
Small amounts of butter or olive oil
Hard candy
Instant coffee
Occasionally a tablespoon of vanilla ice cream
I eat almost all of these things every day just not huge quantities. I don't have any interest in high fat foods. And I lost my desire for chocolate. This mostly low a but it works with my schedule and I enjoy it more than the high beta carotene "healthy" vegetables I ate for decades. And it may have nutrient or mineral gaps but I don't really care. I use eggshell powder, magnesium, vitamin c, some b vitamins, and bromelain.

I forgot the apple juice and applesauce.

 

[Blossom]

I forgot the apple juice and applesauce.

That’s great @Dolomite, I’m glad you’re doing well.

 

[Collden]

Book review.

Extinguishing the fires of hell: Like Grant admits, this is a disjointed, rambling, frequently redundant and above all sloppily argued mess of a book that is not likely to convince anyone that is not already curious about the theory, mostly useful to track his train of thought and for some great graphs that he must have taken a lot of effort to put together himself. Still better than most health/nutrition books.

Poisoning for Profits: By comparison this is a g**d****** literary masterpiece, it is alternately absolutely hilarious black comedy - like how in the JesusHolyAllMighty could a drug that is known to cause permanent brain damage, psychosis and suicidal tendencies and is also a (very dangerous) chemotherapy drug still to this day be approved as an acne treatment for teenagers? Alternately very lucid science writing, I'm a PhD in biomedicine and still find myself learning new things about basic cell biology reading this stuff. Its a very enjoyable read so far.

You can really tell the massive improvement in his mental capacity in the writing of the first to the second book.