MCTs and Coconut Milk increase bile excretion and activate FXR

[Mauritio]

(*Coconut milk in the headline)

These two study show that MCTs and Coconut milk increase bile acid excretion and inhibit re-absorption. It might very well be that the MCTs in coconut milk are responsbile for that effect, since it is about 50% lauric acid. I think that is an important point since many people focus on binding bile, but it also has to be excreted fastly and not get reabsorbed too much. Normally 95% of bile gets reabsorbed. So if you bind bile acids thinking you're doung a good thing for yourself, but you are constipated then the toxic bile will get reabsorbed and cause issues.
So Coconut milk and MCTs like caprylic acid can help with that.

The coconut milk study also claims that coconut milk's fatty acids activate the FXR ,which is a very interesting and pro-metabolic receptor. Interestingly PUFA antagonize that receptor. And activating FXR decreases PUFA in the liver (Activating FXR decreases PUFA in the liver )



"As expected, the fecal bile concentration of the coconut milk group had increased significantly by1.68-fold,..."
- https://www.ocl-journal.org/articles/ocl/pdf/2020/01/ocl200053.pdf

" MCT lowered serum cholesterol levels at least partially via reduction of bile acid absorption in the small intestine by inhibition of I-BABP expression."
- Medium-chain fatty acids decrease serum cholesterol via reduction of intestinal bile acid reabsorption in C57BL/6J mice - Nutrition & Metabolism

 

[Peater]

Interesting. I thought coconut oil was a no go for the toxic bile theory. I've got jars of it so it would be good if it's ok.

 

[Jamsey]

Is this why mct has a tendency to cause diarrhea? I also wonder if free bile acids in the colon is a preferred outcome, as it seems like this tends to be carcinogenic. Perhaps this approach would be best combined with bile binders, and transit time promoters.

The role of bile acids in carcinogenesis - Cellular and Molecular Life Sciences

Bile acids are soluble derivatives of cholesterol produced in the liver that subsequently undergo bacterial transformation yielding a diverse array of metabolites. The bulk of bile acid synthesis takes place in the liver yielding primary bile acids; however, other tissues have also the capacity...

link.springer.com

 

[EvanHinkle]

This is really interesting to me. So from a “toxic bile” perspective, the fiber of say beans, psyllium, or even carrot may bind, but, many of the insoluble fibers will tend to slow transit or exacerbate endotoxin. So perhaps by removing the bile from circulation symptoms abate, but with slowed transit or increased endotoxin the “issue” is not resolved, (as the bile is potentially reabsorbed).

So as has been said a number of times, one needs to absorb toxic bile or bind endotoxin, but then also move it out quickly. Both must occur or the toxic bile is reabsorbed in slow transit, or endotoxin is exacerbated.

Would perhaps charcoal mixed with MCT oil be an ultimate solution potentially? You absorb, and ensure fast transit in one solution so to speak?

 

[Mauritio]

This is really interesting to me. So from a “toxic bile” perspective, the fiber of say beans, psyllium, or even carrot may bind, but, many of the insoluble fibers will tend to slow transit or exacerbate endotoxin. So perhaps by removing the bile from circulation symptoms abate, but with slowed transit or increased endotoxin the “issue” is not resolved, (as the bile is potentially reabsorbed).

So as has been said a number of times, one needs to absorb toxic bile or bind endotoxin, but then also move it out quickly. Both must occur or the toxic bile is reabsorbed in slow transit, or endotoxin is exacerbated.

Would perhaps charcoal mixed with MCT oil be an ultimate solution potentially? You absorb, and ensure fast transit in one solution so to speak?

Yes this makes sense to me as well.

Not sure because charcoal usually causes constipation and for me MCT is not strong enough to counter that.

 

[Mauritio]

Interesting. I thought coconut oil was a no go for the toxic bile theory. I've got jars of it so it would be good if it's ok.

*Coconut milk, couldnt edit the headline anymore. Im not familiar with that theory, so I dont care, but It is good that people think about bile.

 

[Mauritio]

Is this why mct has a tendency to cause diarrhea? I also wonder if free bile acids in the colon is a preferred outcome, as it seems like this tends to be carcinogenic. Perhaps this approach would be best combined with bile binders, and transit time promoters.

The role of bile acids in carcinogenesis - Cellular and Molecular Life Sciences

Bile acids are soluble derivatives of cholesterol produced in the liver that subsequently undergo bacterial transformation yielding a diverse array of metabolites. The bulk of bile acid synthesis takes place in the liver yielding primary bile acids; however, other tissues have also the capacity...

link.springer.com

Yes I think that would be a good approach. I notice that MCT seems to speed up BMs anyway, so maybe the body has a way of knowing that this must leave as fast as possible.

I think it also depends on the kind of bile acid. Some (like UDCA or TUDCA) are beneficial, some are harmful. Generally the more hydrophobic a bile acid, the more toxic it is.

"Also, the BA toxicity is directly related to its hydrophobicity and detergency, because those interact with the cellular membranes in different ways, including the union, the insertion in the lipidic bilayer and its solubilization increasing its fluidity [10]."

"In the cholestasis, the increase of hydrophobic BA produces the cytolysis of plasmatic membrane. In normal individuals, the UDCA represents not more than 4% of the complete endogenous BA reserve. Under a treatment with UDCA, this percentage increases to 40–60% under a conventional dosage of 13–15 mg/kg/day, becoming the UDCA the predominant BA, which shifts the more hydrophobic endogenous BA. Therefore, the substitution of the potentially toxic hydrophobic endogenous BA in the total BA group to a hydrophilic turns the bile more hydrophilic and less cytotoxic, reducing the hepatic lesion."

- Cholestasis: The Close Relationship between Bile Acids and Coenzyme Q10

 

[Mauritio]

(*Coconut milk in the headline)

These two study show that MCTs and Coconut milk increase bile acid excretion and inhibit re-absorption. It might very well be that the MCTs in coconut milk are responsbile for that effect, since it is about 50% lauric acid. I think that is an important point since many people focus on binding bile, but it also has to be excreted fastly and not get reabsorbed too much. Normally 95% of bile gets reabsorbed. So if you bind bile acids thinking you're doung a good thing for yourself, but you are constipated then the toxic bile will get reabsorbed and cause issues.
So Coconut milk and MCTs like caprylic acid can help with that.

The coconut milk study also claims that coconut milk's fatty acids activate the FXR ,which is a very interesting and pro-metabolic receptor. Interestingly PUFA antagonize that receptor. And activating FXR decreases PUFA in the liver (Activating FXR decreases PUFA in the liver )



"As expected, the fecal bile concentration of the coconut milk group had increased significantly by1.68-fold,..."
- https://www.ocl-journal.org/articles/ocl/pdf/2020/01/ocl200053.pdf

" MCT lowered serum cholesterol levels at least partially via reduction of bile acid absorption in the small intestine by inhibition of I-BABP expression."
- Medium-chain fatty acids decrease serum cholesterol via reduction of intestinal bile acid reabsorption in C57BL/6J mice - Nutrition & Metabolism

Pectin is exactly as effective at increasing bile acid excretion as Coconut milk. Maybe thats why eating an apple seems to help with gallbladder issues.

"Fecal bile acid excretion (+168%) and the hepatic activity of cholesterol 7alpha-hydroxylase (+70%) were significantly higher in pectin-fed animals. "
- Pectin feeding influences fecal bile acid excretion, hepatic bile acid and cholesterol synthesis and serum cholesterol in rats - PubMed

 

[Mufasa]

Pectin is exactly as effective at increasing bile acid excretion as Coconut milk. Maybe thats why eating an apple seems to help with gallbladder issues.

"Fecal bile acid excretion (+168%) and the hepatic activity of cholesterol 7alpha-hydroxylase (+70%) were significantly higher in pectin-fed animals. "
- Pectin feeding influences fecal bile acid excretion, hepatic bile acid and cholesterol synthesis and serum cholesterol in rats - PubMed

96.2% of the soluble fibers of carrots are pectin as well

Sci-Hub | | 10.4081/ijas.2005.49

I think pectin is quite amazing. And not as dangerous as other soluble fibers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10319740/

"Therapeutic approaches for noninfectious uveitis have expanded greatly over the past 10 years, but are limited by potential side effects and limited efficacy. Thus, therapeutic approaches that include less toxic, potentially preventative strategies to manage noninfectious uveitis are essential areas of study. Diets rich in fermentable fiber are potentially preventative in various conditions such as metabolic syndrome and type 1 diabetes. We studied the effects of various fermentable dietary fibers in an inducible model of experimental autoimmune uveitis (EAU) and found that they differentially modulated uveitis severity. A high pectin diet was the most protective, reducing clinical disease severity through the induction of regulatory T lymphocytes and the suppression of Th1 and Th17 lymphocytes at peak ocular inflammation in either intestinal or extra-intestinal lymphoid tissues. The high pectin diet also promoted intestinal homeostasis as shown by changes in intestinal morphology and gene expression, as well as intestinal permeability. Pectin-induced modulation of intestinal bacteria appeared to be associated with protective changes in immunophenotype in the intestinal tract, and correlated with reduced uveitis severity. In summary, our current findings support the potential for dietary intervention as a strategy to mitigate noninfectious uveitis severity."

No other soluble fiber they tested was able to do this.

 

[Mufasa]

I was thinking that there may be something to raw-foodism in that sense.

Protopectin is fully insoluble, and it slowly converts too high DE pectin to low DE pectin. And with food procssing you can get the fully soluble pectic acid.

But high PE pectin is more in a half soluble like state, and once it starts to become lower DE, it gets gelling-like features, like gelatin, and even lower DE it looses those features again and becomes fully soluble.

I think in this half-soluble state, it is still very hard for bacteria to reach, but certain good bacteria are able to take advantage of it.
And next to that, its molecular structure, seems to have some charcoal-like features, without inhibiting nutrient absorption.

 

[Highserotonin90]

@Mufasa Do gelatinous fibers such as agar agar or xanthan have any benefits with a chelating action?

 

[Mufasa]

@Mufasa Do gelatinous fibers such as agar agar or xanthan have any benefits with a chelating action?

I don't know.

I saw this study:

Effects of four food hydrocolloids on colitis and their regulatory effect on gut microbiota - PubMed

Hydrocolloids are important food additives and have potential regulatory effects on gut microbiota. The development of colitis is closely related to changes in gut microbiota. The effect of food hydrocolloids on the structure of the gut microbiota and their impact on colitis has not been well...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Hydrocolloids are important food additives and have potential regulatory effects on gut microbiota. The development of colitis is closely related to changes in gut microbiota. The effect of food hydrocolloids on the structure of the gut microbiota and their impact on colitis has not been well investigated. Therefore, this study investigated the effects of four hydrocolloids (carrageenan, guar gum, xanthan gum, and pectin) on colitis, and explored their regulatory effects on gut microbiota. The results indicated that pectin and guar effectively alleviated body weight loss and disease activity index, reduced inflammatory cytokine levels, and promoted short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) production. They increased the abundance of Akkermansia muciniphila, Oscillospira, and Lactobacillus, and Akkermansia abundance had a negative correlation with the severity of colitis. In contrast, carrageenan and xanthan gum did not significantly improve colitis, and carrageenan reduced the production of SCFAs. Both carrageenan and xanthan gum increased the abundance of Ruminococcus gnavus, and Ruminococcus abundance was positively correlated with the severity of colitis. These findings suggest that food additives have an impact on host health and provide guidance for the diet of patients with colitis."

 

[Mufasa]

Another study showing that pectin and guar gum can decrease proteobacteria (bad bacteria):

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fft2.270

 

[Mauritio]

96.2% of the soluble fibers of carrots are pectin as well

Sci-Hub | | 10.4081/ijas.2005.49

I think pectin is quite amazing. And not as dangerous as other soluble fibers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10319740/

"Therapeutic approaches for noninfectious uveitis have expanded greatly over the past 10 years, but are limited by potential side effects and limited efficacy. Thus, therapeutic approaches that include less toxic, potentially preventative strategies to manage noninfectious uveitis are essential areas of study. Diets rich in fermentable fiber are potentially preventative in various conditions such as metabolic syndrome and type 1 diabetes. We studied the effects of various fermentable dietary fibers in an inducible model of experimental autoimmune uveitis (EAU) and found that they differentially modulated uveitis severity. A high pectin diet was the most protective, reducing clinical disease severity through the induction of regulatory T lymphocytes and the suppression of Th1 and Th17 lymphocytes at peak ocular inflammation in either intestinal or extra-intestinal lymphoid tissues. The high pectin diet also promoted intestinal homeostasis as shown by changes in intestinal morphology and gene expression, as well as intestinal permeability. Pectin-induced modulation of intestinal bacteria appeared to be associated with protective changes in immunophenotype in the intestinal tract, and correlated with reduced uveitis severity. In summary, our current findings support the potential for dietary intervention as a strategy to mitigate noninfectious uveitis severity."

No other soluble fiber they tested was able to do this.

Interesting I didnt know that about carrots.

Pectin might be the thing we talked about earlier on this thread. A substance that bind and helps excrete bile while simultaneously increasing transit speed.

 

[EvanHinkle]

Today I tried 2 tablespoons of activated charcoal in 8oz of water with a tablespoon of MCT oil. I should note that unlike many forum users charcoal doesn’t seem to have a constipating effect on me that it does for many.

My plan is to use this combination for three days and see how I feel. Typically I can judge liver function by increased glycogen storage, (I’ve lifted weights for many years and have a good sense of what it takes to reasonably run through stores). In addition a 600mg test of caffeine, or a black double espresso on an empty stomach is a decent test for glycogen storage. If I’m able to handle a double espresso black on an empty stomach without cold extremities then I know my liver is storing glycogen well.

I’ll report back anything I sense.

One thing to note, MCT, water and charcoal did not mix. I’ll be using charcoal in water and chasing it with a tablespoon of MCT.

 

[David PS]

@EvanHinkle Just a friendly reminder, do not use it too often. From the Ray Peat email exchanges:

Activated Charcoal​

It does destroy some vitamins by oxidation, that's why he [V.V. Frolkis] used it only intermittently. Usually fibers, such as carrots or bamboo shoots, are preferable for reducing toxin absorption.

 

[EvanHinkle]

I’ll be using it before bedtime on a mostly empty stomach for no more than three days, then my idea would be once a week or once every two weeks.

I’m open to trying carrots again, but they’ve always been problematic for me, (my skin reacts to them, and I get low blood sugar symptoms).

 

[David PS]

I’ll be using it before bedtime on a mostly empty stomach for no more than three days, then my idea would be once a week or once every two weeks.

I’m open to trying carrots again, but they’ve always been problematic for me, (my skin reacts to them, and I get low blood sugar symptoms).

I sounds like a good plan. I use charcoal one or two times a week on an empty stomach as part of my regular routine.

 

[Mauritio]

"The bile acids, a major end product of cholesterol, have a detergent action in the intestine that usually keeps endotoxin in solution, away from the absorptive surfaces of the intestine. If the flow of bile is obstructed, endotoxin is allowed to enter the system (Bertok, 2004). Estrogen can inhibit the flow of bile (Stieger, et aI., 2000). "
- RP

"If the bile (bile acid) content of the intestinal canal decreases the endotoxin can translocate to the body and elicits toxic symptoms. So most important parts of defense against endotoxins in natural conditions are the CCK and bile acids. The consequence of damage of liver (place of bile acid synthesis) or small intestine (place of CCK synthesis) is the absorption of endotoxins."
- Role of endotoxins and bile acids in the pathogenesis of septic circulatory shock - PubMed

"The absorption of tritium-labeled Escherichia coli O89 Westphal-type endotoxin from the peritoneal cavity of rats was diminished by bile by 23% and by sodium deoxycholate by 47%, respectively."
- Effect of bile acids on the intestinal absorption of endotoxin in rats - PubMed

 

[lvysaur]

@Mufasa Do gelatinous fibers such as agar agar or xanthan have any benefits with a chelating action?

Just use your instincts

Carrots "feel" like they give your intestines a deep clean
Apples also feel a tiny bit like this (but lack antibacterial chemicals)

Mangoes don't, and feel gummy

too much gummy is bad
the fiber breakdown doesn't matter your body already knows it