How to treat despite normal thyriod results

[davidgraham]

I someone has low body temperature and slow pulse rate despite normal thyriod meds how does one go about treating?

Supplementing t3 as per rays suggestion via medication or natural methods?

Cynomel?

NDT?

Nutrion only?

 

[JanW55]

@davidgraham I suggest starting from Tom Brimeyer's website and also Ray Peat's own website which is Ray Peat.

I found that to get T3 to do anything, I had to "heal the thyroid pathway" first. That is where the Tom Brimeyer website came in very handy.

From this Forum, from a recent post of mine, here is the Tom Brimeyer website and some other items I personally credit with my health turnaround (in its early days of starting out from nothing except "Stop the Thyroid Madness" website and Mary Shomon's website/information/books. Those latter did not do enough to actually HELP me in practical ways.

As far as Brimeyer, he just redesigned and relaunched his site and I haven't been on the new version yet, and hopefully it is all stabilized properly in that mode.

Be aware that (at least in his former design of website) it can take some navigating to get down to the heart of the important information, so carefully find the "Blog" part (he also sells supplements which are of high quality).

What 5 things had the biggest effect on your health?

Top 5 things yo. I don't mean vitamins except if that's something you would say helped. Could be routines etc

raypeatforum.com

 

[Hans]

I someone has low body temperature and slow pulse rate despite normal thyriod meds how does one go about treating?

Supplementing t3 as per rays suggestion via medication or natural methods?

Cynomel?

NDT?

Nutrion only?

Are you using thyroid already or are you saying that your labs show that everything is normal?
I would create a good foundation with easily digestible nutrient-dense foods that support thyroid function. Then add NDT.

 

[gunther]

@JanW55 @Hans

I hate to hijack this thread, but my questions may help OP.

After exhausting many treatments for anxiety and depression I decided to experiment with thyroid treatment.

I tried T3 (Tyronene) and got an awesome reaction, feeling like Snoopy dancing to Lionel's piano! I felt surge of warmth with a burst of energy and my mood improved. The problem is that it quickly wears off after an hour or two before I'm Jonesing for my next dose. Also, I'm taking a rather large dose of 2 drops 3 or 4 times daily. From what I gather from Ray Peat, this is way too high.

I've read the STTM books, website and it points to adrenal problems in such a case.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed from here. Should I stay on high dose T3, as long as it works? Should I go down the cortisol/adrenal route? Will T3 eventually clear things up?

 

[RealNeat]

@JanW55 @Hans

I hate to hijack this thread, but my questions may help OP.

After exhausting many treatments for anxiety and depression I decided to experiment with thyroid treatment.

I tried T3 (Tyronene) and got an awesome reaction, feeling like Snoopy dancing to Lionel's piano! I felt surge of warmth with a burst of energy and my mood improved. The problem is that it quickly wears off after an hour or two before I'm Jonesing for my next dose. Also, I'm taking a rather large dose of 2 drops 3 or 4 times daily. From what I gather from Ray Peat, this is way too high.

I've read the STTM books, website and it points to adrenal problems in such a case.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed from here. Should I stay on high dose T3, as long as it works? Should I go down the cortisol/adrenal route? Will T3 eventually clear things up?

Internal or topical? Take it with food it'll last longer.

 

[gunther]

Internal or topical? Take it with food it'll last longer.

I lick it off my wrist.

 

[JanW55]

Hello @gunther I went down the adrenal-fatigue rabbit hole and that delayed my progress unfortunately.

Yes, I surmise I had cortisol raging away, true, but it was not an "adrenal-fix" that was needed. Since that is essentially a bogus approach I believe.

Mainstream physicians had diagnosed me with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis with antibodies in blood testing showing up over 1000, (surpassing reference upper range), TSH of 12 initially, which after taking levothyroxine that those doctors prescribed, soared (at times) up to 88, and a complete crash of energy following all that (i.e. chronic extreme fatigue).

So, I was desperate and thinking T.B. was probably a scam, went on and paid $97 for Brimeyer's book and "exercise DVD" and dietary recipes. The download version of all that came with it no extra charge.

(I think he's charging $127 now for the hard-copy book and $97 is the download only version.)

That was all I ever paid for the INFO; I do buy some of his very good supplements from time to time, which are liquid for the most part (vitamin ADK, vitamin B complex, progesterone in Vitamin E, etc.).

I think the $97 was worth it to get all the help I got out of the info, and it was just the one payment, not requiring any further subscriptions or monthly installments, or consultations, or whatever. The recipes alone were worth the $97 and the exercise video was unusual and featured T. B. himself doing the exercises. (He recommends yoga or qi gong or tai chi for the most part, pick your own instructor for that, and T. B. was demonstrating some medicine ball type things in his video as I recall.)

To try to go through this excellent raypeatforum website right here and get all this info is the "no-spend way" but it will take some time to get that same info, and time can be money, and time is of the essence in addressing one's health issues, I do believe.

Note that I do NOT get any kickbacks for recommending anything I recommend, it is just what has worked for me.

Good luck to you both, @gunther and @davidgraham, and much success in your health journeys!

 

[Hans]

@JanW55 @Hans

I hate to hijack this thread, but my questions may help OP.

After exhausting many treatments for anxiety and depression I decided to experiment with thyroid treatment.

I tried T3 (Tyronene) and got an awesome reaction, feeling like Snoopy dancing to Lionel's piano! I felt surge of warmth with a burst of energy and my mood improved. The problem is that it quickly wears off after an hour or two before I'm Jonesing for my next dose. Also, I'm taking a rather large dose of 2 drops 3 or 4 times daily. From what I gather from Ray Peat, this is way too high.

I've read the STTM books, website and it points to adrenal problems in such a case.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed from here. Should I stay on high dose T3, as long as it works? Should I go down the cortisol/adrenal route? Will T3 eventually clear things up?

T3 does have a short half-life so that's why the effects are so brief. Some people are just more resistant to thyroid hormones, due to excess free fatty acids, or micronutrient deficiencies for example.

I'd personally focus on easy to digest nutrient dense foods and a few pro-thyroid warming herbs, such as ginger and black cumin. Plus B-vits might be very helpful as well.

 

[gunther]

@JanW55

Not sure I fully understand. Are you saying that what ultimately helped was diet and exercise?

 

[JanW55]

@gunther it has been a combination of a lot of things, which has taken six, going on 7, years now (I started at age 60 doing all this).

Diet, yes, in the sense of what foods work for ME, and digest properly in my system (that alone has taken a lot of experimentation and trial and error), plus eliminating PUFAs as much as possible.

I gave up gluten in 2008 at age 53 and immediately lost 20 pounds, I kid you not.

NO dieting in the sense of "Such and Such type of Diet or Famous So-and-So's Diet" or calorie restriction or fasting or whatnot.

Exercise had become impossible after my "thyroid collapse" in 2016 (since age 22, I had long been a jogger, 6 miles per day, then turned to being an enthusiast of "aerobic weightlifting" i.e. The Firm, then tried kettlebells, all of which I had to give up -- even walking -- due to the fatigue and low blood sugar episodes and brain fog).

So, I've recently regained enough energy to do "Jane Adams yoga videos" and do some walking, plus the Somatics and am attempting to learn simple Tai Chi (for balance basically, since it is not what I am much good at, naturally at all).

I am around 5'4" (162.56 cm) tall at this time; I have "shrunk" it appears over the years, since I started out at 5'5.5" (166.37 cm) 130 pounds (58.97 kilograms) in my youth. (Per military ID card or whatever, as dependent.)

Currently I think I weigh around 143 lbs (64.86 kilograms), up from a pretty steady years-long 134-135 at the time at the "thyroid collapse" and am nowadays mainly focused on building muscle through yoga plank-type postures and on diminishing water retention, which is a lifelong problem I've had, due to my hypothyroidism.

My lowest weight (since probably age 12) was 119 (53.97 kilograms) during the year I was, I think 36 or 37, when I fanatically gave up all fat, went more or less into high gluten "pasta loading" which was then touted as great for runners, counted all calories rigorously to 1000 to 1500 per day, jogged 6 or 7 miles per day PLUS did the weights stuff.

My cholesterol went through the roof PLUS triglycerides, and the doctor said "just eat some FAT for heaven's sake" -- although he did not recognize I had previously constantly had cholesterol around 200 (not the high triglycerides though -- that was only after all this draconian exercise and no-fat eating) and obvious thyroid issues. No clue there at that juncture, or any medical help really on THAT.

I think doing all that aforementioned exercise and "dieting" tanked my thyroid and was done strictly on cortisol, but anyhow, I had been my highest weight back around 1987 (169 lbs 76.66 kilograms) during a stressful year of job change and not getting time to exercise due to tremendous work overtime.

These weight swings and dietary mistakes/missteps have taken their toll and I recommend everyone reading this, who has any similar situation going on, to take the middle ground of moderation in all things and take any potential change steps, very small and slowly.

 

[JanW55]

@gunther TLDR version of answer to your question, is Tom Brimeyer is not advocating or selling a "diet" or "exercise" but furnished a lot of valuable information regarding the optimization of one's "thyroid pathway" and metabolism.

The information is what is worth its weight in gold far above the $97 that I paid, and he mentioned Ray Peat's work in his writeups and that led me to this Forum, thank goodness! (I also subscribe to the Ray Peat Newsletter, bought and read several of his books, and listen to some radio podcasts from time to time [I think that is the term for those.])

Brimeyer has a charming little group of recipes to try, that enhance metabolism, and a DVD showing him doing some very simple thyroid-safe exercises, but I eat my own food choices and do the yoga type movements I want to do, from a DVD I bought from a different source, not him.

 

[mostlylurking]

@JanW55 @Hans

I hate to hijack this thread, but my questions may help OP.

After exhausting many treatments for anxiety and depression I decided to experiment with thyroid treatment.

I tried T3 (Tyronene) and got an awesome reaction, feeling like Snoopy dancing to Lionel's piano! I felt surge of warmth with a burst of energy and my mood improved. The problem is that it quickly wears off after an hour or two before I'm Jonesing for my next dose. Also, I'm taking a rather large dose of 2 drops 3 or 4 times daily. From what I gather from Ray Peat, this is way too high.

I've read the STTM books, website and it points to adrenal problems in such a case.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed from here. Should I stay on high dose T3, as long as it works? Should I go down the cortisol/adrenal route? Will T3 eventually clear things up?

You might find some answers if you consider the thiamine connection to oxidative metabolism, thyroid function, and adrenal fatigue.
suggested reading:

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Why Fatigue Matters in Thyroid Disease- Hormones Matter

Fatigue is an important clinical sign of mitochondrial dysfunction. Watch this video and learn what else to look for.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I've been dealing with hypothyroidism for 45 years. I learned about two years ago that I had a severe issue with thiamine functional blockage. For the past 20+ months I've been taking high dose thiamine hcl and have experienced great benefit. My thyroid medication had to be reduced from 180 mg of prescription desiccated thyroid to 135 mg of the same medication because my hypothyroidism improved and my sensitivity to the medication increased from the high dose thiamine hcl. I believe the thiamine issue is my original primary problem. It is interesting that polyunsaturated fats damage thyroid function and also block thiamine function. Your thyroid needs thiamine to do its job.

also this one: The importance of addressing thiamine status in adrenal fatigue
"Research on thiamine deficiency and adrenal function
Given the ethical challenges that inducing a thiamine deficiency in humans would raise, much of the data on the effect of thiamine deficiency on adrenal function comes from studies in rats. One study showed that inducing thiamine deficiency in rats led to hyperstimulation of the zona fasciculata of the adrenal glands in 2 weeks causing increased corticosterone output followed by complete exhaustion in 4 weeks(8). Corticosterone is the chief glucocorticoid in rats whereas cortisol fills that role in humans. While this is obviously an extreme example of thiamine deficiency and its effect on the adrenal gland, it does underscore the importance of thiamine in adrenal function.

Another study in rats found thiamine deficiency elevated corticosterone levels and depressed the aldosterone response to sodium deprivation(9). Aldosterone is released by the adrenal glands when sodium levels drop, causing the kidney to recycle sodium back in to the bloodstream. This is interesting because many of the symptoms associated with adrenal fatigue relate to an electrolyte imbalance, specifically a decrease in the sodium:potassium ratio. A decrease in aldosterone under low sodium intake would induce the same set of symptoms. Many people with adrenal fatigue notice an improvement in their symptoms with increased salt intake.

A study in humans found thiamine injections prevented functional adrenal gland exhaustion during and after surgical stress(10). Again, it's hard to extraploate this data to otherwise healthy individuals, but it does show a general effect of thiamine on adrenal gland function."

I think doing all that aforementioned exercise and "dieting" tanked my thyroid and was done strictly on cortisol, but anyhow, I had been my highest weight back around 1987 (169 lbs 76.66 kilograms) during a stressful year of job change and not getting time to exercise due to tremendous work overtime.

Lots of exercise plus dieting could have put you into a thiamine deficiency. A thiamine deficiency would tank your thyroid. Athletes are especially vulnerable to thiamine deficiency/functional blockage. This seems to be the reason why these people are more at risk from Gardasil vaccine damage (this vaccine blocks thiamine function). Another way athletes can get into trouble with thiamine deficiency is by drinking alcohol because alcohol uses up the available thiamine. I have a friend who was very athletic and also drank alcohol; he crashed and was misdiagnosed with Guillain Barre syndrome; Guillain Barre has the same symptoms as thiamine deficiency.

Vaccination as a Stressor - Hormones Matter

If there are other factors that decrease the overall health of the child, the vaccine may simply act as the last straw.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Rapidly developing weakness mimicking Guillain-Barré syndrome in beriberi neuropathy: two case reports - PubMed

Thiamine deficiency must be actively considered as a possible cause of polyneuropathy, and variability in its clinical features should be taken into consideration.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[gunther]

@mostlylurking

Do you find that b1 is something you feel soon after ingesting or is it something that takes a few days/weeks to build up?

Today I took some b1 and noticed that my T3 had me more stimulated than normal. I didn’t put it together until I read your post.

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking

Do you find that b1 is something you feel soon after ingesting or is it something that takes a few days/weeks to build up?

Today I took some b1 and noticed that my T3 had me more stimulated than normal. I didn’t put it together until I read your post.

When I first took a higher dose of thiamine hcl (Oct. 2020), all my inflammation (lactic acidosis) disappeared and my temperature went up a full degree (to 98.6) within 45 minutes of taking that dose (about 250-300mg, with water). So yes, big improvements can happen very quickly. But not always. The body develops workarounds (so you don't die) and these workarounds can take a while to change back to normal. I experienced increasing improvements for at least 6 months, probably longer. Two years have passed and I'm now 30 pounds lighter and have a lot more stamina and body strength. I'm 72, female. I spent about 4 months working up to my optimum dose of thiamine hcl, which is 2 grams/day. I didn't have a doctor to help me so I took my time with the dose increases and relied on my reaction to each increased dose.

 

[JanW55]

@mostlylurking thanks so much for posting this (I also agree with the thiamine hcl and am currently going down that very promising path!). I did mention that very thing in my list of other things I'm working into the mix, in the below, but was addressing @davidgraham and @gunther more specifically on "first steps" to thyroid-pathway-building/remediation information e.g. Tom Brimeyer website which had steered me in the right direction in the first place and also led me to this website and Peat.

What 5 things had the biggest effect on your health?

Top 5 things yo. I don't mean vitamins except if that's something you would say helped. Could be routines etc

raypeatforum.com

Anyhow, I read in THIS FORUM about thiamine (that's the good thing about having found this forum because it has people's real-life experiences detailed, etc.) so I first got some "Benfotiamine" based on what people here were saying about THAT and seeing this type typical description from a website selling such:
"Benfotiamine is a dietary supplement. It is used to treat diabetic neuropathy (nerve pain) and Alzheimer's disease . Benfotiamine is a lab-created version of thiamine (vitamin B1). Your body absorbs it better than natural B1.

Well, it was so dramatic of an effect I became convinced of Thiamine's being needed by my innards REAL MUCH; however, Benfotiamine was TOO MUCH TOO FAST (or something, plus being "lab-created" is not my cup of ginger tea haha) and due to taking the approach of slow and steady, as always, I retreated back to just the Thiamine Hcl. Result: That is working all to the good, in small steps, on that!

I admire your stamina and perseverance to pursue what worked for you, taking your proper pace; that's how all this is so rewarding in the long run (health building and rebuilding) -- sometimes I get discouraged but I know the inside me knows what to "fix" and in what order!

Best,
JW

 

[mostlylurking]

Well, it was so dramatic of an effect I became convinced of Thiamine's being needed by my innards REAL MUCH; however, Benfotiamine was TOO MUCH TOO FAST (or something, plus being "lab-created" is not my cup of ginger tea haha) and due to taking the approach of slow and steady, as always, I retreated back to just the Thiamine Hcl. Result: That is working all to the good, in small steps, on that!

For the last couple of years, I've spent a lot of time reading about thiamine on the internet. There are different knowlegable people who have their own favorite types of thiamine. Some favor TTFD because it gets into the cells more easily/or passes into the bloodstream more efficiently. These experts include: Dr. Derrick Lonsdale, Dr. Chandler Marrs, and Elliot Overton. These people have a tremendous amount of knowledge and I learned a lot from them. However, I could not tolerate TTFD because my glutathione was deficient and TTFD uses it to work so I got a bad headache from a single pill. Thiamine hcl actually normalized my glutathione status. I got used to the taste so I have continued to take thiamine hcl (in water, never juice).

Thiamine supplements are all "lab created"; but thiamine hcl has the longest track record and is considered a "safe" supplement.

The problem with the hcl type is that it is not particularly efficient getting through the small intestinal wall, especially if you have gut disbiosis/SIBO. This is the reason why the effective oral dose for the hcl type is so high. Dr. Costantini stated on his website that 2 grams of thiamine hcl taken orally for 7 days equals to one 100mg injection of thiamine hcl taken per week. He successfully treated thousands of Parkinson's Disease patients with thiamine hcl.

The experts who favor TTFD tend to recommend benfotiamine as being next best if you cannot tolerate TTFD. I really don't know a lot about benfotiamine other than some studies state that it does not cross the blood/brain barrier. Some experts have said that thiamine hcl does not cross the blood/brain barrier but Dr. Costantini has stated that it certainly does so long as the level in the blood is high enough. Dr. Costantini preferred thiamine hcl over benfotiamine.

The topic of thiamine dose amount and cancer is an interesting subject to research. Researchers doing studies for the cancer industry tend to warn against thiamine as being cancer promoting and also that it will obstruct "chemotherapy" results. Other studies state that high dose thiamine is anti-carcinogenic. There's a research study (that I cannot find now) that states that low dose thiamine can promote cancer but high dose thiamine is anti-carcinogenic. Because I understand the problem with the Warburg Effect and I had lactic acidosis for months (and thiamine hcl resolved the issue), I tend to believe that the high dose thiamine hcl is protecting me from cancer.

Here's a good article for your consideration about thiamine and cancer.
Here's another great article.

 

[xeliex]

For the last couple of years, I've spent a lot of time reading about thiamine on the internet. There are different knowlegable people who have their own favorite types of thiamine. Some favor TTFD because it gets into the cells more easily/or passes into the bloodstream more efficiently. These experts include: Dr. Derrick Lonsdale, Dr. Chandler Marrs, and Elliot Overton. These people have a tremendous amount of knowledge and I learned a lot from them. However, I could not tolerate TTFD because my glutathione was deficient and TTFD uses it to work so I got a bad headache from a single pill. Thiamine hcl actually normalized my glutathione status. I got used to the taste so I have continued to take thiamine hcl (in water, never juice).

Thiamine supplements are all "lab created"; but thiamine hcl has the longest track record and is considered a "safe" supplement.

The problem with the hcl type is that it is not particularly efficient getting through the small intestinal wall, especially if you have gut disbiosis/SIBO. This is the reason why the effective oral dose for the hcl type is so high. Dr. Costantini stated on his website that 2 grams of thiamine hcl taken orally for 7 days equals to one 100mg injection of thiamine hcl taken per week. He successfully treated thousands of Parkinson's Disease patients with thiamine hcl.

The experts who favor TTFD tend to recommend benfotiamine as being next best if you cannot tolerate TTFD. I really don't know a lot about benfotiamine other than some studies state that it does not cross the blood/brain barrier. Some experts have said that thiamine hcl does not cross the blood/brain barrier but Dr. Costantini has stated that it certainly does so long as the level in the blood is high enough. Dr. Costantini preferred thiamine hcl over benfotiamine.

The topic of thiamine dose amount and cancer is an interesting subject to research. Researchers doing studies for the cancer industry tend to warn against thiamine as being cancer promoting and also that it will obstruct "chemotherapy" results. Other studies state that high dose thiamine is anti-carcinogenic. There's a research study (that I cannot find now) that states that low dose thiamine can promote cancer but high dose thiamine is anti-carcinogenic. Because I understand the problem with the Warburg Effect and I had lactic acidosis for months (and thiamine hcl resolved the issue), I tend to believe that the high dose thiamine hcl is protecting me from cancer.

Here's a good article for your consideration about thiamine and cancer.
Here's another great article.

Hi Mostlythiamine!

Did you hear Georgi and Danny's latest interview? Georgi discussed thiamine quite a bit especially in relation to cancer and the plans to change Energin's thiamine type.

 

[mostlylurking]

Hi Mostlythiamine!

Did you hear Georgi and Danny's latest interview? Georgi discussed thiamine quite a bit especially in relation to cancer and the plans to change Energin's thiamine type.

Thanks for the heads up! I haven't heard it yet. I'll go look for it now.

 

[mostlylurking]

Hi Mostlythiamine!

Did you hear Georgi and Danny's latest interview? Georgi discussed thiamine quite a bit especially in relation to cancer and the plans to change Energin's thiamine type.

Do you have a link?

 

[xeliex]

Youtube deleted the stream, RIP haha

I listened over my podcast app but he also linked it in telegram.

[Generative Energy Podcast] #89: Cancer in The Young | Loneliness | Gray Hair | Fasting | Testosterone | Aristotle vs. Plato with Georgi Dinkov #generativeEnergyPodcast
#89: Cancer in The Young | Loneliness | Gray Hair | Fasting | Testosterone | Aristotle vs. Plato with Georgi Dinkov • Generative Energy Podcast - via Podcast Addict via @PodcastAddict