From Carnivore to Ray Peat - A repository to escape low carb hell

[Sertorius]

Hello all,

I have been building this website notjustmeat.co parodying the repository built for carnivore Just meat..

Low Carb and Carnivore gave me so many problems (especially gut wise) that I think it is a moral duty to share the dangers of this approach. I have gathered the work of Mike Fave, Hans Amato, Danny Roddy, Jay Feldman and others to build a single repository for people who are desperate (like I was) and are looking for a solution to reintroduce carbs without too much suffering.

I would greatly appreciate your help in additional resources (I have been thinking to add also papers on another sections), videos, podcast that I can help to make even a stronger case against low carbs.

Thanks a lot for the help

@Hans Amato @CLASH @JFwellness

 

[skuabird]

Kyle Mamounis' criticisms are top notch, imo.

I'm curious to know your particulars if you don't mind sharing. How long were you carnivore? What made you eat that way? What specific health problems?

I was two years carni. But decade dairy-free low carb before. Mine were back and hip pain that did not get better, only worse. Hypothyroidism and worse and worse sleep-maintenence insomnia.

 

[Sertorius]

I transitioned in three years from Paleo (dairy, eggs, meat, lots of veggies, little fruit) to Carnivore (no dairy) since I developed serious food sensitivities. Main reason I went towards low carb was to improve my health for Crohn's disease. At that time I was asymptomatic and in remission and I wanted to quit immunosuppressant. I figured that if I eat the same way I did when I got the diagnosis, I would have developed a flare.

So I quite gluten and wheat first proceeding towards Paleo.

On low carb at first I felt great, but later on I have developed:

- dysbiosis (SIBO + overgrowth also in the large intestine)
- chronic diarrhea/poor hunger
- dandruff
- low energy
- sadness/anxiety

Now I am trying to solve my health problems through Ray Peat principle: meat + starches that I tolerate (potatoes) + juice + raw carrots salad

 

[Xisca]

Hello all,

I have been building this website notjustmeat.co parodying the repository built for carnivore Just meat..

Low Carb and Carnivore gave me so many problems (especially gut wise) that I think it is a moral duty to share the dangers of this approach. I have gathered the work of Mike Fave, Hans Amato, Danny Roddy, Jay Feldman and others to build a single repository for people who are desperate (like I was) and are looking for a solution to reintroduce carbs without too much suffering.

I would greatly appreciate your help in additional resources (I have been thinking to add also papers on another sections), videos, podcast that I can help to make even a stronger case against low carbs.

Thanks a lot for the help

@Hans Amato @CLASH @JFwellness

Be careful, your approach is as wrong as low carb... I went from Peating to carnivore and it helped me immensely. I stopped the increase of glycemia and solved fatigue due to molds very quickly. I now consider myself "animal-based", after 3 years and a half.
I know very well the carnivore community and the only problem is the same as for any diet: if it is hard to follow, you need help to be motivated, and they do it by persuading themselves plant foods are BAD, instead of admitting "MY BODY has a problem with carbs".

Some people do good and just cannot eat in any other way than carnivore...

So if it did not bring you any advantage, you just did it too long without listening to your body, maybe because a community convinced you to listen to them more than to your body. If you want to fight this, I will be on your side, but don't trash a diet that is very useful, just warn that we are all different. I had even created a facebook group meant as a testimonial place in order to show our similitudes and differences, BOTH. It was called "We are omnivore, so why can't I?"

The real question is to know how we can check which diet if fine for us (and Peaters who try to convince it is good for everybody do the same mistake in order to motivate themselves to stick to it!), if there are tests and signs etc.

Most people are not ready for this approach, due to a lack of faith in our instinct (Gosh, how do animals and our ancesters knew how to eat and what? Just have a look at how goats choose each leaf they eat and refuse what they don't need! This sense is not smell or taste, it is the part called PALATABILITY, and it varies).

Carnivore for me? I discovered what I did not get in this forum:

- Casein intolerance is shaded by lactose, and I just cannot have dairies, even goat or sheep and even raw and even organic...
On carnivore I finally noticed the constipation issue, sign of casein issue.
Then I also saw my issue with fibers, as cheese used to compensate and avoid diarrhea, in the same way that fibers compensated and avoided the constipation... So, both were unsuitable for ME.

- Orange juice gives me hot flushes. Actually, everything with fructose does, and starch if excessive.

- I think I have a problem with caroten and not with the red or violet pigments, and not problem with real vitamin A.

- I had a strong issue wth oxalate, and for sure it became visible with the carnivore diet, as it helps dumping.

- Though I have learned here about the importance of B vitamins and in particular THIAMIN for glycemia, the knowledge was too reduced and it took me a few more years to learn that B1 needs to be added in enormous amount in order to make start again a normal aerobic metabolism. Unfortunately while peating I only took energin, much too low in B1. And even when I increased last year on carnivore, it was not enough.

So it is clear for me, carnivore helped me because being in mild ketosis spared my metabolism that do bad on carbs. I just do not have enough energy for this, because of a past lack of B1 (as we can still need high doses while having now the right amount of B1). I also knew that I was only buying time with the diet and that I had to keep searching... So I discovered all the above and hope to be one day able to stand carbs the way a normal person can.

But I hope Peaters will discover why they have an issue with certain fats, as we are also not supposed to (unless very high and not sat fats), and that they will also admit THEY have an issue instead of saying that PUFAs are globally and always bad!

We all have an issue with certain foods and have to acknowledge it, or else how can you find out what is your problem?

Last, we can thank Elliot Overton for having warned that people not having good results on carnivore / keto should try high thiamin, using the knowledge and book from Derrick Lonsdale (he is 97 now) and Chandler Marrs (website hormonesmatter). Elliot has a youtube channel and a website called EOnutrition.

 

[Xisca]

I transitioned in three years from Paleo (dairy, eggs, meat, lots of veggies, little fruit) to Carnivore (no dairy) since I developed serious food sensitivities. Main reason I went towards low carb was to improve my health for Crohn's disease. At that time I was asymptomatic and in remission and I wanted to quit immunosuppressant. I figured that if I eat the same way I did when I got the diagnosis, I would have developed a flare.

So I quite gluten and wheat first proceeding towards Paleo.

On low carb at first I felt great, but later on I have developed:

- dysbiosis (SIBO + overgrowth also in the large intestine)
- chronic diarrhea/poor hunger
- dandruff
- low energy
- sadness/anxiety

Now I am trying to solve my health problems through Ray Peat principle: meat + starches that I tolerate (potatoes) + juice + raw carrots salad

Be careful, your symptoms totally fall into the thiamin defficiency issues, including the gut issues, the mood issues and the low energy. If you increase carbs without using the high thiamin, you are at risk of crashing as I did by going from Paleo to Peat. I went carnivore after Peat and got better. It was not enough of course and I kept searching.

But i have warned endlessly (and with some bans in groups in FB) that low carb + high protein could not be sustained long term by everybody without a loss of hunger and the start of thyroid issues... At least Paul Saladino has introduced honey and then some fruits! So the length one can go carnivore depends on their ability to digest a lot of fat in order to get enough energy by ketones.
I have left the group "world carnivore tribe" the day I got fed up to give much more than what I recieved, because 3 persons the same day, showing signs of hypothyroid and asking for help and you are not listened ot means the diet does not suit them... well they can go to hell if they want, I left!

I also suggest that you get some juices (low oxalate veggies and not fructose) first, and then eat meat when you are hungry, with little starch, as you stand them. If you persist with fruits, be careful to not need them every 2 hours as I ended up (even though I was eating fresh local fruits and not juices). Any need to increase how many times you eat will be from glycemia roller coaster, due to thiamin deficiency. I presently take 300mg a day and crash in energy if I take only 200mg... I also recover in 1 day with the right amount of thiamin! You might very well need much more than this but you have to ramp up carefully, or else you deplete the cofactors (Mg and often K, and the other Bs). That's a good idea to do an HTMA (hair test) and an organic acid test (OAT checking carb and fat meatbolism and aminoacids and Bs.

Also for your gut and liver, try to see if you can handle a tsp at a time of very well cooked + cooled red lentils or some pasta of pure flour of these. A question: can you have eggs and can you have sulfur veggies such as allium and brassica?

 

[Jon2547]

Be careful, your approach is as wrong as low carb... I went from Peating to carnivore and it helped me immensely. I stopped the increase of glycemia and solved fatigue due to molds very quickly. I now consider myself "animal-based", after 3 years and a half.
I know very well the carnivore community and the only problem is the same as for any diet: if it is hard to follow, you need help to be motivated, and they do it by persuading themselves plant foods are BAD, instead of admitting "MY BODY has a problem with carbs".

Some people do good and just cannot eat in any other way than carnivore...

So if it did not bring you any advantage, you just did it too long without listening to your body, maybe because a community convinced you to listen to them more than to your body. If you want to fight this, I will be on your side, but don't trash a diet that is very useful, just warn that we are all different. I had even created a facebook group meant as a testimonial place in order to show our similitudes and differences, BOTH. It was called "We are omnivore, so why can't I?"

The real question is to know how we can check which diet if fine for us (and Peaters who try to convince it is good for everybody do the same mistake in order to motivate themselves to stick to it!), if there are tests and signs etc.

Most people are not ready for this approach, due to a lack of faith in our instinct (Gosh, how do animals and our ancesters knew how to eat and what? Just have a look at how goats choose each leaf they eat and refuse what they don't need! This sense is not smell or taste, it is the part called PALATABILITY, and it varies).

Carnivore for me? I discovered what I did not get in this forum:

- Casein intolerance is shaded by lactose, and I just cannot have dairies, even goat or sheep and even raw and even organic...
On carnivore I finally noticed the constipation issue, sign of casein issue.
Then I also saw my issue with fibers, as cheese used to compensate and avoid diarrhea, in the same way that fibers compensated and avoided the constipation... So, both were unsuitable for ME.

- Orange juice gives me hot flushes. Actually, everything with fructose does, and starch if excessive.

- I think I have a problem with caroten and not with the red or violet pigments, and not problem with real vitamin A.

- I had a strong issue wth oxalate, and for sure it became visible with the carnivore diet, as it helps dumping.

- Though I have learned here about the importance of B vitamins and in particular THIAMIN for glycemia, the knowledge was too reduced and it took me a few more years to learn that B1 needs to be added in enormous amount in order to make start again a normal aerobic metabolism. Unfortunately while peating I only took energin, much too low in B1. And even when I increased last year on carnivore, it was not enough.

So it is clear for me, carnivore helped me because being in mild ketosis spared my metabolism that do bad on carbs. I just do not have enough energy for this, because of a past lack of B1 (as we can still need high doses while having now the right amount of B1). I also knew that I was only buying time with the diet and that I had to keep searching... So I discovered all the above and hope to be one day able to stand carbs the way a normal person can.

But I hope Peaters will discover why they have an issue with certain fats, as we are also not supposed to (unless very high and not sat fats), and that they will also admit THEY have an issue instead of saying that PUFAs are globally and always bad!

We all have an issue with certain foods and have to acknowledge it, or else how can you find out what is your problem?

Last, we can thank Elliot Overton for having warned that people not having good results on carnivore / keto should try high thiamin, using the knowledge and book from Derrick Lonsdale (he is 97 now) and Chandler Marrs (website hormonesmatter). Elliot has a youtube channel and a website called EOnutrition.

Your experience and mine are quite similar. There is great benefit in the carnivore diet when practiced with deliberation. For me it was something that I did for a while and may try again. For me I don't think it was necessary to be carnivore for the rest of my life.

 

[skuabird]

So if it did not bring you any advantage, you just did it too long without listening to your body, maybe because a community convinced you to listen to them more than to your body.

Great point. As I ran into issues (mostly worsening back pain) I'd ask the zero carb and carnivore groups on reddit for help and answers were always be more strict, lower-histamine, eliminate everything but beef. I did that off and on for a year and every time I got worse, not better. It was an exercise of doubling down and not listening to my own body. Just a side-note, the reddit groups seemed much more ideological than the facebook carnivore groups, at least at the time. I see the fb groups purity spiraling now though...not being able to talk about problems or suggests solutions that don't fall into line is not healthy.

I've been thinking about going more meat-based as the seasons change and I'm having a craving for fatty meats...it just seems instinctual. (I've been eating low fat, lots of skimmed milk & fruit). I know for my body it is mostly one or the other- sugar or fat. Eating saturated fat with moderate carbs hinders my glucose metabolism (and makes me feel like crap with high blood pressure). However, eating low carb overtime and my body gets pretty low energy, low blood pressure, low HR, eventually low temp. I can look at it as "I have a problem with saturated fats (on a 100g carb + diet)" or "I have a problem with carbs (when on moderate fat diet)". The answer for me may be to cycle.

If/when I go to try it again, I'd never go zero carb (eat some fruit or a carrot at least everyday) and I'd include a calcium source or dairy. Oh, and watch body temp for signs of metabolism slowing down too much.

 

[Xisca]

Your experience and mine are quite similar. There is great benefit in the carnivore diet when practiced with deliberation. For me it was something that I did for a while and may try again. For me I don't think it was necessary to be carnivore for the rest of my life.

Super elimination diet to know what is going on!
And often very useful for auto-immune issues (not everybody even in this case).

If it is said why and how etc. to do the carnivore diet, it is perfectly fine to warn that no we are not a carnivore species but omnivore and more than anything we are "locavore", like "eat what there is".
For example not all the Masai people used to eat carnivore, but the soldiers, and only during a few years, I think 15, and they were not excluding fruits absolutely, and they were taking certain herbs in infusions to avoid certain drawbacks (probably an excess iron, through the use of tannins).

The most important point for us in this forum is to not do the same MISTAKE with the RP diet, by pretending this is ZE diet for humans and PUFAs are not the devil for everybody (though the oil can bring an excess, compared to the use of seeds). I woud search for WHICH REASONS some people react more than others to PUFAs!

And I will never insist enough that feeling better on low carbs means probably having had a lack of B1 at some moment, and that it needs a huge amount during a few months to correct it, exactly as in beriberi. Coming back to normal as for vit.C in scorbut is not enough.

BTW notjustmeat looks good...

 

[Xisca]

Great point. As I ran into issues (mostly worsening back pain) I'd ask the zero carb and carnivore groups on reddit for help and answers were always be more strict, lower-histamine, eliminate everything but beef. I did that off and on for a year and every time I got worse, not better. It was an exercise of doubling down and not listening to my own body. Just a side-note, the reddit groups seemed much more ideological than the facebook carnivore groups, at least at the time. I see the fb groups purity spiraling now though...not being able to talk about problems or suggests solutions that don't fall into line is not healthy.

I've been thinking about going more meat-based as the seasons change and I'm having a craving for fatty meats...it just seems instinctual. (I've been eating low fat, lots of skimmed milk & fruit). I know for my body it is mostly one or the other- sugar or fat. Eating saturated fat with moderate carbs hinders my glucose metabolism (and makes me feel like crap with high blood pressure). However, eating low carb overtime and my body gets pretty low energy, low blood pressure, low HR, eventually low temp. I can look at it as "I have a problem with saturated fats (on a 100g carb + diet)" or "I have a problem with carbs (when on moderate fat diet)". The answer for me may be to cycle.

If/when I go to try it again, I'd never go zero carb (eat some fruit or a carrot at least everyday) and I'd include a calcium source or dairy. Oh, and watch body temp for signs of metabolism slowing down too much.

lol I have been ejected from the most pure FB groups and when not, i have been silenced on world carnivore tribe for having shown a whole lamb carcass because some people thought it was a cat.... Quite funny when you see the cover picture with cavemen hunting a mamoth... and more funny when you know that I live in a cave with Internet and eat my own eggs and roosters, and if ever I get a piece of papaya, this is from the garden!
I have been bullied for asking like "what do you think about a piece of papaya for the papaine, to digest meat?"
In the end, the best group was Principia Carnivora.

So really it is like a vegetarian group where you would be forbidden to talk about "the other side". And my conclusion from nervous point of view is that it helps people to stick to the diet! Many people post to say "I fell off the wagon". When I was ok with carnivore, I did not crave anything else actually.

So as you say, why become more strict when things do not work? Then you might go the same way as the plant side... you become raw-foodist!
I also left a group with the leader making some monodiets with raw chicken, and another raw group where they also eat honey and some plants, but ferment eggs with ***t on them (saying they were so happy to have found some dirty eggs!) in order to get more bacteria...
I actually eat a lot of raw meat because I like it and it is tender, and cook the rest as broth. But I wash my eggs. I eat the raw white separate and alone to avoid the antinutrients and because I love them like this. I can ferment the raw meat and I eat it as long as the smell is attractive. I can also ferment it in vinegar. I just play and experiment!

 

[Mastemah]

Its amazing how many people don’t understand Ray’s ideas. He mentions things like milk and oj as simple possible solutions not the solutions. Ray wants everyone to find their way not his way. Ive spoken to him many times about clients that didn’t eat milk but ate meat and fruit and were great or a vegan that felt awesome just adding B’s, creatine and glycine. Ray’s simple ideas are just that: simple. An elevator speech full of things that are not expensive and work for the majority. He talk about how you feel, what you crave and what improves your metabolism. Period. When I asked him about clients that were doing well on ratios of macros that this forum would often describe as ‘not Peaty’ he mentioned how environment, social life etc can allow a person to thrive on many diets.

Its not a church…

 

[animalcule]

Thank you for making that website. Carnivore caused me many health issues, and when I finally quit, a few years ago, it was incredibly frustrating to be told by the carnivore “community” that I was either a liar or I wasn’t doing it properly, and that’s why it wasn’t working for me. The less info out there about the harms of this diet, the longer people struggling on it will keep trying to make it work, thinking it’s some holy grail bc all they’re told is that it’s the ideal diet with no risks whatsoever or some bs. And yes: the Reddit carnivore/zerocarb subs are full of zealots and moderated by morons. One of them even told me to f*ck off bc he would not be stopped on his mission to save people through the carnivore diet (I was pointing out, in vain, that the diet was causing digestive and other issues in many people, and the subreddit was providing no meaningful solutions to these problems, that is if they even acknowledged these problems to begin with. Apparently my concerns were a threat to his carnivore crusade…)

I could go on forever about my issues with the carnivore “community” and diet. There are other threads on this forum with anecdotes from former carnivores. In some ways, in order to get yourself to do such an extreme elimination diet, you kind of have to self brainwash yourself and drink the koolaid— I remember when I was having issues even starting the carnivore diet (extreme nausea), I would look the the forums for reassurance that this was temporary and that the benefits were there, if only I stuck to it. I’d read some of literature, listen to Amber O’Hearn and Barry Groves lectures… At the very least, I tried to reassure myself, this diet cannot be harmful, and the upsides could be huge… Nope! It was a video by Danny Roddy about quitting the carnivore diet that finally helped me close the book on the diet. Finally — someone else had tried the diet, to a T, and STILL felt like crap on it. It wasn’t my fault, and I wasn’t alone. Websites like yours are an important resource for people struggling on the diet, but reluctant to quit bc all they hear are success stories.

Someone above mentioned Overton and thiamin— taking high doses have thiamin have helped my digestion, though it’s still probably weaker than it was pre-dieting. So I second that.

Also: There used to be a woman, I think her name was Esme, who used to be one of the long term carnivores that people could refer to when citing the diet’s safety. She had her story of healing up on some of the carnivore websites. Anyway, I remember finding her on Facebook and being shocked to learn she WASNT doing the carnivore diet anymore. She said she was only eating quinoa and “just trying to survive.” Really sounded like the once all-healing carnivore diet had really messed her up. If you could find her, maybe she’d be willing to give you an interview for the website? I’m not sure what her opinion is of the diet now, but the “healing” clearly didn’t last. I’ll try to remember her name.

 

[Sertorius]

Be careful, your symptoms totally fall into the thiamin defficiency issues, including the gut issues, the mood issues and the low energy. If you increase carbs without using the high thiamin, you are at risk of crashing as I did by going from Paleo to Peat. I went carnivore after Peat and got better. It was not enough of course and I kept searching.

But i have warned endlessly (and with some bans in groups in FB) that low carb + high protein could not be sustained long term by everybody without a loss of hunger and the start of thyroid issues... At least Paul Saladino has introduced honey and then some fruits! So the length one can go carnivore depends on their ability to digest a lot of fat in order to get enough energy by ketones.
I have left the group "world carnivore tribe" the day I got fed up to give much more than what I recieved, because 3 persons the same day, showing signs of hypothyroid and asking for help and you are not listened ot means the diet does not suit them... well they can go to hell if they want, I left!

I also suggest that you get some juices (low oxalate veggies and not fructose) first, and then eat meat when you are hungry, with little starch, as you stand them. If you persist with fruits, be careful to not need them every 2 hours as I ended up (even though I was eating fresh local fruits and not juices). Any need to increase how many times you eat will be from glycemia roller coaster, due to thiamin deficiency. I presently take 300mg a day and crash in energy if I take only 200mg... I also recover in 1 day with the right amount of thiamin! You might very well need much more than this but you have to ramp up carefully, or else you deplete the cofactors (Mg and often K, and the other Bs). That's a good idea to do an HTMA (hair test) and an organic acid test (OAT checking carb and fat meatbolism and aminoacids and Bs.

Also for your gut and liver, try to see if you can handle a tsp at a time of very well cooked + cooled red lentils or some pasta of pure flour of these. A question: can you have eggs and can you have sulfur veggies such as allium and brassica?

I worked with Elliot Overton and he NEVER advised supplementing Thiamine to my particular case (I think he knows better).

Do you think I haven't tried to make carnivore work? I tried EVERYTHING:

- raw and cooked
- organs and without organs
- Intermittent Fasting
- higher fat and lower fat
- higher protein
- you name it.

I am not trashing any diet, in fact as I say "While potent elimination diet, these approach have significant effects on physiology to consider while evaluating your nutrition strategy."

It was Elliot who introduced me to carbs but I have really started improving thanks to Mike Fave and his FODMAP-free approach to carbs (orange, pineapple juice, potatoes, white rice).

 

[Sertorius]

Thank you for making that website. Carnivore caused me many health issues, and when I finally quit, a few years ago, it was incredibly frustrating to be told by the carnivore “community” that I was either a liar or I wasn’t doing it properly, and that’s why it wasn’t working for me. The less info out there about the harms of this diet, the longer people struggling on it will keep trying to make it work, thinking it’s some holy grail bc all they’re told is that it’s the ideal diet with no risks whatsoever or some bs. And yes: the Reddit carnivore/zerocarb subs are full of zealots and moderated by morons. One of them even told me to f*ck off bc he would not be stopped on his mission to save people through the carnivore diet (I was pointing out, in vain, that the diet was causing digestive and other issues in many people, and the subreddit was providing no meaningful solutions to these problems, that is if they even acknowledged these problems to begin with. Apparently my concerns were a threat to his carnivore crusade…)

I could go on forever about my issues with the carnivore “community” and diet. There are other threads on this forum with anecdotes from former carnivores. In some ways, in order to get yourself to do such an extreme elimination diet, you kind of have to self brainwash yourself and drink the koolaid— I remember when I was having issues even starting the carnivore diet (extreme nausea), I would look the the forums for reassurance that this was temporary and that the benefits were there, if only I stuck to it. I’d read some of literature, listen to Amber O’Hearn and Barry Groves lectures… At the very least, I tried to reassure myself, this diet cannot be harmful, and the upsides could be huge… Nope! It was a video by Danny Roddy about quitting the carnivore diet that finally helped me close the book on the diet. Finally — someone else had tried the diet, to a T, and STILL felt like crap on it. It wasn’t my fault, and I wasn’t alone. Websites like yours are an important resource for people struggling on the diet, but reluctant to quit bc all they hear are success stories.

Someone above mentioned Overton and thiamin— taking high doses have thiamin have helped my digestion, though it’s still probably weaker than it was pre-dieting. So I second that.

Also: There used to be a woman, I think her name was Esme, who used to be one of the long term carnivores that people could refer to when citing the diet’s safety. She had her story of healing up on some of the carnivore websites. Anyway, I remember finding her on Facebook and being shocked to learn she WASNT doing the carnivore diet anymore. She said she was only eating quinoa and “just trying to survive.” Really sounded like the once all-healing carnivore diet had really messed her up. If you could find her, maybe she’d be willing to give you an interview for the website? I’m not sure what her opinion is of the diet now, but the “healing” clearly didn’t last. I’ll try to remember her name.

The same for me. Zero Carb subreddit is full of morons, dogmatic people who believe that carnivore is THE way.

Thanks for sharing the info, do you mean this lady About Me? It is a great idea

edit: this is her FB profile, WTF... Facebook

 

[animalcule]

The same for me. Zero Carb subreddit is full of morons, dogmatic people who believe that carnivore is THE way.

Thanks for sharing the info, do you mean this lady About Me? It is a great idea

Yes! That's the woman!! I don't use Facebook anymore, but she was still on one of the FB carnivore groups a few years ago despite no longer doing the diet (at the time, who knows what she is doing now). It would be so interesting to read an interview w/her now. I wonder if she's ok.

 

[emarie]

I did carnivore, muscle meats, liver, kidney and egg yolks for the most part, for two years. Had the best energy and strength I have ever had in my life. That is what kept me going, not being dogmatic. Even as my strength started slipping away and had SIBO like symptoms, I figured it was still better than precarnivore. Until it wasn't. From what I have read, it sounds like I have worsened my thyroid, I have low TSH, Free T3 and Free T4. I hope to get supplementation for it soon, takes forever to see a health professional these days. What brand B1 and how much are people finding helpful? Any other suggestions? Ingesting mostly muscle meat, oysters, shrimp, liver, heart, coffee, oj, fresh fruits.

 

[animalcule]

I did carnivore, muscle meats, liver, kidney and egg yolks for the most part, for two years. Had the best energy and strength I have ever had in my life. That is what kept me going, not being dogmatic. Even as my strength started slipping away and had SIBO like symptoms, I figured it was still better than precarnivore. Until it wasn't. From what I have read, it sounds like I have worsened my thyroid, I have low TSH, Free T3 and Free T4. I hope to get supplementation for it soon, takes forever to see a health professional these days. What brand B1 and how much are people finding helpful? Any other suggestions? Ingesting mostly muscle meat, oysters, shrimp, liver, heart, coffee, oj, fresh fruits.

I have been taking 500 mg daily of allithiamine from Ecological Formulas. Some people who recommend megadosing advise more. I believe it has helped, though it did take some time, and I still don't think my digestion is 100%. There is another guy on here who takes a huge amount of thiamine HCL and he claims it has completely turned things around for him, digestion and energy-wise. I've considered experimenting with that once my stock of allithiamine runs out. I do notice a dip in energy if I forget to take it, so I keep on taking it.

I don't have any advice that I'm certain of post-carnivore -- I still just keep experimenting, trying to get back to not having reactions from so many foods, trying to improve my energy, trying to improve digestion. Carnivore definitely increased food sensitivities, but thankfully some have diminished. Unfortunately, I've gained a lot of weight after going off carnivore and it is proving very difficult to lose.

One thing I would be careful of is dental health. From your new diet description, I don't think you're in too much danger bc you're not eating any grain or a lot of sugary foods BUT be aware: many people, myself included, experience rapid and noticeable decline in dental health post-carnivore (or very low carb) when they try to go back to eating lots of carbs. I haven't had a cavity since I was a young child, even when eating moderate/high carb (ie "normally" to my knowledge then), but a year after going off carnivore and trying to eat "normally" again? My gums receded *drastically* and I got four small cavities. I hadn't changed my brushing or flossing habits at all and yet I experienced gum recession and tooth decay. It was shocking. My dentist recommended gum grafts and said I was way too young to be experiencing gum recession like this. Just ... be aware. I don't know why this happens or how to mitigate it apart from maybe taking extra oral health steps like oil pulling or mouthwash or more frequent brushing maybe. And ... even though many people on this forum are pro-sugar ... I'm almost positive that it played a big role in my dental health declining.

 

[CLASH]

Thanks for creating the thread @Sertorius.

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For anyone coming from carnivore, thiamine, the fat soluble vitamins, the rest of the B-complex vitamins, thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone, Herbal supplements, etc. can all be helpful coming off carnivore. In my experience none of these individual supplements makes or breaks the situation overall. Some are quite helpful like thiamine in certain cases, but I haven't seen it be a cure all.

The steps of improvement from my experience would be:
1) gradual appropriate reverse dieting, carefully implemented with controlled experimentation
2) Building a Foundational Supplemental toolbox
3) Gut work if neccesary (usually neccesary)
4) Continued optimization depending on the individuals context

People come to carnivore for different nuanced reasons in my experience, with a common theme of "gut issues" and autoimmunity. Some peoples gut issues can be autoimmune, others can be post infective, others can be unknown intolerances, and others years of abuse from a SAD diet. This list goes on.

As an elimination diet, carnivore can be helpful, theres no doubt, however I dont think its a long term optimal strategy. It also does have some serious drawbacks, that cannot be ignored (nutrient gaps, carb restriction, microbiome disturbance, iron excess, caloric deficiency etc.).

The biggest thing I see is the difficulty in navigating the nuance in figuring out what works for you individually. Its hard to run controlled experiments on yourself, especially while trying to figure out what exactly to do in spheres clouded by dogma and ideology, while suffering from whatever symptoms your currently experiencing. (That includes portions of the bioenergetic sphere as well. I think its a natural response for groups of people to get together and develop some of these mentalities.)

 

[emarie]

Helpful insights, thank you!

 

[Blossom]

She said she was only eating quinoa and “just trying to survive.” Really sounded like the once all-healing carnivore diet had really messed her up. If you could find her, maybe she’d be willing to give you an interview for the website? I’m not sure what her opinion is of the diet now, but the “healing” clearly didn’t last. I’ll try to remember her name.

We are friends so I could ask her if she would be interested an interview. The last time we talked about diet she was only tolerating raw quail eggs.

 

[Sertorius]

We are friends so I could ask her if she would be interested an interview. The last time we talked about diet she was only tolerating raw quail eggs.

Hei Blossom, please let me know if I can assist. I am very interested in her experience. Carnivore has become a dogma