Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Collden]

Speaking of VA and liver toxicity, not sure if this has been posted.

Liver damage caused by therapeutic vitamin A administration: estimate of dose-related toxicity in 41 cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"Clinical presentation, changes in liver function test results, and liver morphology were examined in 41 consecutive patients with vitamin A hepatoxicity. The cause of liver disease was suspected at initial interview in only 13 instances, whereas histological evidence of fat-storing cell hyperplasia with fluorescent vacuoles led to the diagnosis in the remaining cases. Cirrhosis was found in 17, mild chronic hepatitis in 10, noncirrhotic portal hypertension in 5, and "increased storage" alone in 9 cases. During a mean follow-up period of 4.6 years, 6 patients died of causes related to the liver disease. A precise appraisal of drug consumption was obtained in 29 cases. Among them the total cumulative intake was the highest in patients with cirrhosis (423 +/- 103 x 10(6) IU) and significantly lower in those with noncirrhotic liver disease (88.5 +/- 41; P less than 0.02). The smallest continuous daily consumption leading to cirrhosis was 25,000 IU during 6 years, whereas higher daily doses (greater than or equal to 100,000 IU) taken during 21/2 years resulted in similar histological lesions. It was concluded that at least in some western countries chronic vitamin A consumption might represent an appreciable cause of chronic liver disease, the recognition of which mainly relies on expert liver biopsy interpretation. The data also indicate that prolonged and continuous consumption of doses in the low "therapeutic" range can result in life-threatening liver damage."

Not exactly difficult to attain with diet if you're into coloured veggies, dairy, eggs and organ meats.

 

[sunraiser]

Speaking of VA and liver toxicity, not sure if this has been posted.

Liver damage caused by therapeutic vitamin A administration: estimate of dose-related toxicity in 41 cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"Clinical presentation, changes in liver function test results, and liver morphology were examined in 41 consecutive patients with vitamin A hepatoxicity. The cause of liver disease was suspected at initial interview in only 13 instances, whereas histological evidence of fat-storing cell hyperplasia with fluorescent vacuoles led to the diagnosis in the remaining cases. Cirrhosis was found in 17, mild chronic hepatitis in 10, noncirrhotic portal hypertension in 5, and "increased storage" alone in 9 cases. During a mean follow-up period of 4.6 years, 6 patients died of causes related to the liver disease. A precise appraisal of drug consumption was obtained in 29 cases. Among them the total cumulative intake was the highest in patients with cirrhosis (423 +/- 103 x 10(6) IU) and significantly lower in those with noncirrhotic liver disease (88.5 +/- 41; P less than 0.02). The smallest continuous daily consumption leading to cirrhosis was 25,000 IU during 6 years, whereas higher daily doses (greater than or equal to 100,000 IU) taken during 21/2 years resulted in similar histological lesions. It was concluded that at least in some western countries chronic vitamin A consumption might represent an appreciable cause of chronic liver disease, the recognition of which mainly relies on expert liver biopsy interpretation. The data also indicate that prolonged and continuous consumption of doses in the low "therapeutic" range can result in life-threatening liver damage."

Not exactly difficult to attain with diet if you're into coloured veggies, dairy, eggs and organ meats.

25k iu per day would mean eating 100g liver every single day. You'd need to differentiate veg intake which should only be converted as needed.

 

[Collden]

25k iu per day would mean eating 100g liver every single day. You'd need to differentiate veg intake which should only be converted as needed.

Add eggs, milk, cheese and butter to that. During my WAPF years I used to get 200-250g/day of fat from eggs and dairy, as well as 7-8 ounces of beef liver per week. Probably got close to 20 000 IU from animal products alone.

Anyway cirrhosis means your liver is seriously dang messed up and that kind of damage is often irreversible. If 25 000 IU/day for some years can make your liver cirrhotic then I'm sure much lower doses can still do substantial damage, particularly over more prolonged periods.

 

[Tarmander]

Speaking of VA and liver toxicity, not sure if this has been posted.

Liver damage caused by therapeutic vitamin A administration: estimate of dose-related toxicity in 41 cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"Clinical presentation, changes in liver function test results, and liver morphology were examined in 41 consecutive patients with vitamin A hepatoxicity. The cause of liver disease was suspected at initial interview in only 13 instances, whereas histological evidence of fat-storing cell hyperplasia with fluorescent vacuoles led to the diagnosis in the remaining cases. Cirrhosis was found in 17, mild chronic hepatitis in 10, noncirrhotic portal hypertension in 5, and "increased storage" alone in 9 cases. During a mean follow-up period of 4.6 years, 6 patients died of causes related to the liver disease. A precise appraisal of drug consumption was obtained in 29 cases. Among them the total cumulative intake was the highest in patients with cirrhosis (423 +/- 103 x 10(6) IU) and significantly lower in those with noncirrhotic liver disease (88.5 +/- 41; P less than 0.02). The smallest continuous daily consumption leading to cirrhosis was 25,000 IU during 6 years, whereas higher daily doses (greater than or equal to 100,000 IU) taken during 21/2 years resulted in similar histological lesions. It was concluded that at least in some western countries chronic vitamin A consumption might represent an appreciable cause of chronic liver disease, the recognition of which mainly relies on expert liver biopsy interpretation. The data also indicate that prolonged and continuous consumption of doses in the low "therapeutic" range can result in life-threatening liver damage."

Not exactly difficult to attain with diet if you're into coloured veggies, dairy, eggs and organ meats.

Wow...yeah pretty easy. Few ounces of liver a week, several eggs per day, diary, cheese, and then all the veggie beta carotene. Ugh

 

[Dolomite]

Speaking of VA and liver toxicity, not sure if this has been posted.

Liver damage caused by therapeutic vitamin A administration: estimate of dose-related toxicity in 41 cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"Clinical presentation, changes in liver function test results, and liver morphology were examined in 41 consecutive patients with vitamin A hepatoxicity. The cause of liver disease was suspected at initial interview in only 13 instances, whereas histological evidence of fat-storing cell hyperplasia with fluorescent vacuoles led to the diagnosis in the remaining cases. Cirrhosis was found in 17, mild chronic hepatitis in 10, noncirrhotic portal hypertension in 5, and "increased storage" alone in 9 cases. During a mean follow-up period of 4.6 years, 6 patients died of causes related to the liver disease. A precise appraisal of drug consumption was obtained in 29 cases. Among them the total cumulative intake was the highest in patients with cirrhosis (423 +/- 103 x 10(6) IU) and significantly lower in those with noncirrhotic liver disease (88.5 +/- 41; P less than 0.02). The smallest continuous daily consumption leading to cirrhosis was 25,000 IU during 6 years, whereas higher daily doses (greater than or equal to 100,000 IU) taken during 21/2 years resulted in similar histological lesions. It was concluded that at least in some western countries chronic vitamin A consumption might represent an appreciable cause of chronic liver disease, the recognition of which mainly relies on expert liver biopsy interpretation. The data also indicate that prolonged and continuous consumption of doses in the low "therapeutic" range can result in life-threatening liver damage."

Not exactly difficult to attain with diet if you're into coloured veggies, dairy, eggs and organ meats.

That's me. Decades of daily beta carotene, eggs, dairy and then three years of fortified milk, orange juice and occasional liver topped off my vitamin a storage capacity.

 

[Tarmander]

Pineapples have lutein, that's what makes them yellow. So you might be detoxing less because you're eating more VA. https://www.researchgate.net/public..._comosus_grown_in_different_counties_of_Kenya

What about Strawberries? Found one thing that said around 200 mcg per serving. You seeing more?

Other sources saying 26 MCG, which would be much much less

 

[Peater Piper]

Add eggs, milk, cheese and butter to that. During my WAPF years I used to get 200-250g/day of fat from eggs and dairy, as well as 7-8 ounces of beef liver per week. Probably got close to 20 000 IU from animal products alone.

25k IU per day of retinol is almost impossible to achieve without liver or cod liver oil. That's 50 cups of fortified milk per day, or 100 large eggs, or 70 tablespoons of butter......or 3 oz of beef liver. As for beta carotene, there's a few cultures who rely mostly on orange sweet potatoes, which may be the highest beta carotene food there is, and it doesn't seem like they're developing liver cirrhosis even after decades on the diet.

My takeaway, liver really should be used sparingly (and drinking rancid fish oil always seemed like a bad idea).

 

[Collden]

25k IU per day of retinol is almost impossible to achieve without liver or cod liver oil. That's 50 cups of fortified milk per day, or 100 large eggs, or 70 tablespoons of butter......or 3 oz of beef liver. As for beta carotene, there's a few cultures who rely mostly on orange sweet potatoes, which may be the highest beta carotene food there is, and it doesn't seem like they're developing liver cirrhosis even after decades on the diet.

My takeaway, liver really should be used sparingly (and drinking rancid fish oil always seemed like a bad idea).

Yeah I'd guess carotenes are less risky than retinol but perhaps they become an issue when combined with large amounts of retinol. Most cultures that rely on sweet potatoes are in tropical regions where they get heavy sunlight exposure so likely this would help protect them from VA toxicity as well.

Its true that a person is unlikely to get 25k IU with dairy/eggs alone, you need liver or supplements to get into the really toxic range. However there are studies showing that as little as 5000 IU per day is associated with increased risk of osteoporosis and this is easy to get on a regular dairy/egg-rich diet. If 5000 IU can increase the risk of osteoporosis it could be that already this amount is a burden for the liver that could add up to become significant given enough time.

I want to emphasise just how bad cirrhosis is, this is the end-stage disease where your liver is often messed up beyond repair. Its truly shocking that VA can apparently damage your liver that badly in just 6 years with amounts that are entirely plausible to get through diet, especially a diet that many circles lift up as healthy. By contrast heavy alcohol abuse usually takes decades to cause similar damage. VA toxicity is not even recognised by mainstream medicine as a cause of liver disease so who knows if there is a silent epidemic of VA-induced liver disease that is flying under the radar, considering how many people in the west are taking supplements or doing "healthy" diets for years and decades.

 

[Louise]

Yeah I'd guess carotenes are less risky than retinol but perhaps they become an issue when combined with large amounts of retinol. Most cultures that rely on sweet potatoes are in tropical regions where they get heavy sunlight exposure so likely this would help protect them from VA toxicity as well.

Its true that a person is unlikely to get 25k IU with dairy/eggs alone, you need liver or supplements to get into the really toxic range. However there are studies showing that as little as 5000 IU per day is associated with increased risk of osteoporosis and this is easy to get on a regular dairy/egg-rich diet. If 5000 IU can increase the risk of osteoporosis it could be that already this amount is a burden for the liver that could add up to become significant given enough time.

I want to emphasise just how bad cirrhosis is, this is the end-stage disease where your liver is often messed up beyond repair. Its truly shocking that VA can apparently damage your liver that badly in just 6 years with amounts that are entirely plausible to get through diet, especially a diet that many circles lift up as healthy. By contrast heavy alcohol abuse usually takes decades to cause similar damage. VA toxicity is not even recognised by mainstream medicine as a cause of liver disease so who knows if there is a silent epidemic of VA-induced liver disease that is flying under the radar, considering how many people in the west are taking supplements or doing "healthy" diets for years and decades.

What are best telltale signs of irreversible cirrhosis? Or do you need tests to know with any certainty?

For everyone - Does anyone know how Janelle is doing? I haven't seen her post in a long time.

 

[postman]

Has anyone tried cassava/yuca/manioc?

What about Strawberries? Found one thing that said around 200 mcg per serving. You seeing more?

Other sources saying 26 MCG, which would be much much less

No I haven't seen it listed that high anywhere, where did you read that

 

[Elderflower j58]

@Louise said
For everyone - Does anyone know how Janelle is doing? I haven't seen her post in a long time.

Jannelle is now @sugarbabe

 

[Louise]

@Louise said
For everyone - Does anyone know how Janelle is doing? I haven't seen her post in a long time.

Jannelle is now @sugarbabe

Thanks!

 

[Collden]

What are best telltale signs of irreversible cirrhosis? Or do you need tests to know with any certainty?

As far as I know there is no consensus on when cirrhosis becomes irreversible or if it ever is truly irreversible. It gets harder the more advanced it is, early symptoms of impaired liver function are fatigue, weakness, poor appetite, bloating, sexual problems, and other hormonal problems that get worse the more it progresses. Later on yellowing of skin, easy bruising/bleeding and mental problems like confusion, brain fog and depression.

Maybe one reason liver disease is considered so difficult to reverse is because we haven't identified all the factors that contribute to it, up to 30% of all cases of cirrhosis are so called "cryptic cirrhosis" where no known cause like alcoholism or hepatitis could be identified. Part of the usual treatment for cirrhosis is to recommend a "healthy" diet and this will likely include a bunch of high-VA whole foods like eggs, dairy, and colourful veggies and to take a multivitamin supplement that may just as well just exacerbate the problem.

There is a very nicely described case study of a 29-year old man who developed cirrhosis (confirmed by biopsy) due to consuming around 3 ounces of beef liver per day for 8 years. In this case it seems like he was able to largely reverse the problem after around 10 months on a low-VA diet.
Hepatic and dermatologic manifestations of chronic hypervitaminosis A in adults. Report of two cases. - PubMed - NCBI

Oh, and the second case study in that paper describes a woman whose eyebrows grew back after adopting a low VA diet, there's quite a few of those stories now.

 

[Louise]

As far as I know there is no consensus on when cirrhosis becomes irreversible or if it ever is truly irreversible. It gets harder the more advanced it is, early symptoms of impaired liver function are fatigue, weakness, poor appetite, bloating, sexual problems, and other hormonal problems that get worse the more it progresses. Later on yellowing of skin, easy bruising/bleeding and mental problems like confusion, brain fog and depression.

Maybe one reason liver disease is considered so difficult to reverse is because we haven't identified all the factors that contribute to it, up to 30% of all cases of cirrhosis are so called "cryptic cirrhosis" where no known cause like alcoholism or hepatitis could be identified. Part of the usual treatment for cirrhosis is to recommend a "healthy" diet and this will likely include a bunch of high-VA whole foods like eggs, dairy, and colourful veggies and to take a multivitamin supplement that may just as well just exacerbate the problem.

There is a very nicely described case study of a 29-year old man who developed cirrhosis (confirmed by biopsy) due to consuming around 3 ounces of beef liver per day for 8 years. In this case it seems like he was able to largely reverse the problem after around 10 months on a low-VA diet.
Hepatic and dermatologic manifestations of chronic hypervitaminosis A in adults. Report of two cases. - PubMed - NCBI

Oh, and the second case study in that paper describes a woman whose eyebrows grew back after adopting a low VA diet, there's quite a few of those stories now.

Thank you for the reply. I feel like I've had most of those symptoms at some degree or off and on most of my life and some started when very young like bruising very easily. Never had yellowing of the skin though.

 

[Tarmander]

Has anyone tried cassava/yuca/manioc?


No I haven't seen it listed that high anywhere, where did you read that

Actually just one source had them in the 200 range. Most seem to be in the 20mcg range

 

[InChristAlone]

Thanks!

Yep I'm still here. And going through a massive root canal infection, so have little energy to talk online.

 

[postman]

Actually just one source had them in the 200 range. Most seem to be in the 20mcg range

right but what source was that

 

[Louise]

Yep I'm still here. And going through a massive root canal infection, so have little energy to talk online.

Sorry to hear that, hope that resolves quickly. I wasn't planning on starting a convoy just wondered how you were. I'll go back and read your posts as sugarbabe.

 

[Tarmander]

right but what source was that

Fruits That Have Lutein and Zeaxanthin

Not sure on their sourcing

 

[postman]

Fruits That Have Lutein and Zeaxanthin

Not sure on their sourcing

Thank you. But the article says a cup of strawberries has 54 mcg of carotenoids, not 193. Still a lot though.