Ray's Thoughts On Walt Kempner's Findings. Mead Acid Production

[TeaRex14]

I have little doubt in my mind that Peat hasn't at least reviewed Kempner's protocol of white rice, fruits, fruits juice, and cane sugar. Though I haven't read anything from Peat about it so far. Obviously, the diet couldn't be sustained in the long term due to nutritional deficiencies. But I wonder if Kempner stumbled upon a convenient way to induce EFA deficiency and stimulate mead acid production, perhaps. He was allegedly reversing several degenerative illnesses with his protocol. I think Kempner's work was about 10 years before Broda Barnes's discovery of how important thyroid metabolism was to preventing all sorts of illnesses. But I can't help but think Kempner likely discovered, accidentally perhaps, a way to encourage glucose oxidation to it's fullest extent thus allowing complete usage of thyroid hormone. Interesting dots to connect nevertheless.

 

[managing]

What makes you connect Kempner to Mead acid?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Because this is a close to zero pufa diet. And it keeps free fatty acids very low, solving the bane of other diets which are high FFA levels.

I am sure Dr. Peat has reviewed Kempner’s diet though. I recall his discussing it. I listen to a lot of Ray Peat’s interviews all the time. Highly recommend you do that too :)

 

[foodandtheworld]

I only know of one reference where he mentions it and it's very brief and not particularly positive:

In the 1950s, when the pharmaceutical industry was beginning to promote some new chemicals as diuretics to replace the traditional mercury compounds, Walter Kempner’s low-salt “rice diet” began to be discussed in the medical journals and other media.
Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity
​

But he did speak positively of the William Brown fat-free experiment in this interview: Ray Peat
And in these articles: Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.
Phosphate, activation, and aging.
Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

So both diets were basically fat-free, but the Brown one was closer to Peat's ideas (sugar/fructose vs starch, adequate protein vs low protein, calcium important).

I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on Kempner's diet specifically though, since I was quite astounded by the speed of weight loss and the pictures in the article Denise Minger wrote about it:
In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

 

[TeaRex14]

Thanks, yeah I just thought they were interesting dots to connect. Kempner, who really didn't know much about metabolism, got some of the same results out of his patients with his dietary modifications as Broda Barnes got from his patients using desiccated thyroid. They both approached the situation from different angles but achieved the same results. I figured this not only proved Barnes's theory about thyroid and disease relation, but also proved Peat's theories that glucose oxidation can support thyroid. I also thought the mead acid concept was interesting, considering if any diet can induce EFA deficiency, it would be Kempner's diet. I can't imagine getting much fat from white rice, fruit juice, and sugar cane.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Definitely. This summary from Kempner himself is interesting in that it mentions sugar ad libitum:

A patient takes an average of 250 to 350 gm. of rice (dry weight) daily; any kind of rice may be used provided no sodium, chloride, milk, etc. has been added during its processing. … All fruit juices and fruits are allowed, with the exception of nuts, dates, avocados and any dried or canned fruit or fruit derivatives to which substances other than white sugar have been added. Not more than one banana a day should be taken. White sugar and dextrose may be used ad libitum; on an average a patient takes about 100 grams daily, but, if necessary, as much as 500 grams daily should be used. Tomato and vegetable juices are not allowed.
​

My local university library has one of his books. It will be interesting to see if he measured things like body temperature/pulse/TSH of the dieters, as it would help draw more connections to Broda Barnes.

EDIT: it looks like the article Denise Minger references (Treatment of massive obesity with rice/reduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI) is available to download in PDF here: Treatment of massive obesity with ricereduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss.pdf

Interesting thing to note from that study is the cholesterol levels didn't really change much before and after the weight loss. One group went from 236~ to 228~, the other group from 221~ to 233~ (an increase). So I wonder how that might throw a spanner in things.

 

[TeaRex14]

Definitely. This summary from Kempner himself is interesting in that it mentions sugar ad libitum:

A patient takes an average of 250 to 350 gm. of rice (dry weight) daily; any kind of rice may be used provided no sodium, chloride, milk, etc. has been added during its processing. … All fruit juices and fruits are allowed, with the exception of nuts, dates, avocados and any dried or canned fruit or fruit derivatives to which substances other than white sugar have been added. Not more than one banana a day should be taken. White sugar and dextrose may be used ad libitum; on an average a patient takes about 100 grams daily, but, if necessary, as much as 500 grams daily should be used. Tomato and vegetable juices are not allowed.
​

My local university library has one of his books. It will be interesting to see if he measured things like body temperature/pulse/TSH of the dieters, as it would help draw more connections to Broda Barnes.

EDIT: it looks like the article Denise Minger references (Treatment of massive obesity with rice/reduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI) is available to download in PDF here: Treatment of massive obesity with ricereduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss.pdf

I would love to know more, much more. I don't have any of his books and I haven't found a lot of his work online. He's mentioned some in a few vegan circles, but that's it, and they don't seem to be aware of the scientific significance of his work. They just attribute his success rate to the removal of animal foods.

 

[TeaRex14]

Definitely. This summary from Kempner himself is interesting in that it mentions sugar ad libitum:

A patient takes an average of 250 to 350 gm. of rice (dry weight) daily; any kind of rice may be used provided no sodium, chloride, milk, etc. has been added during its processing. … All fruit juices and fruits are allowed, with the exception of nuts, dates, avocados and any dried or canned fruit or fruit derivatives to which substances other than white sugar have been added. Not more than one banana a day should be taken. White sugar and dextrose may be used ad libitum; on an average a patient takes about 100 grams daily, but, if necessary, as much as 500 grams daily should be used. Tomato and vegetable juices are not allowed.
​

My local university library has one of his books. It will be interesting to see if he measured things like body temperature/pulse/TSH of the dieters, as it would help draw more connections to Broda Barnes.

EDIT: it looks like the article Denise Minger references (Treatment of massive obesity with rice/reduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI) is available to download in PDF here: Treatment of massive obesity with ricereduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss.pdf

Interesting thing to note from that study is the cholesterol levels didn't really change much before and after the weight loss. One group went from 236~ to 228~, the other group from 221~ to 233~ (an increase). So I wonder how that might throw a spanner in things.

Well, due to the very high sugar intake that could explain why cholesterol didn't drop much. If we assume his patients' thyroid function was good, then the high cholesterol couldn't be from low thyroid. The one "kink in the chain" with Kempner's diet is it's devoid of many key nutrients, my bet is a vitamin A deficiency is causing the elevated cholesterol. Vitamin A, along with thyroid, are both needed to convert the cholesterol into pregnenolone. Since his patients were lacking the vitamin A it might explain why extra serum cholesterol is present.

 

[ecstatichamster]

He supplemented vitamin A.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/sdfe/pdf/download/eid/1-s2.0-0002934348904410/first-page-pdf

Supplementary vitamins are added in the following amounts: vitamin A 5,000 units, vitamin D 1,000 units, thiamine chloride 5 mg., riboflavin 5 mg., niacina- mide 25 mg., calcium pantothenate 2 mg. No other medication is given unless it is specifically indicated.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Pretty good paper
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.114.03946

 

[TeaRex14]

He supplemented vitamin A.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/sdfe/pdf/download/eid/1-s2.0-0002934348904410/first-page-pdf

Supplementary vitamins are added in the following amounts: vitamin A 5,000 units, vitamin D 1,000 units, thiamine chloride 5 mg., riboflavin 5 mg., niacina- mide 25 mg., calcium pantothenate 2 mg. No other medication is given unless it is specifically indicated.

Pretty good paper
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.114.03946

Thank you, helps sort out some of my confusion. Interesting, I guess it was the high sugar intake then. Or perhaps the low salt and low protein restricted thyroid function from it's full potential.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thank you, helps sort out some of my confusion. Interesting, I guess it was the high sugar intake then. Or perhaps the low salt and low protein restricted thyroid function from it's full potential.

what strikes me is

1. water and fluid intake limitations
2. no salt allowed

They restricted people to small amounts of fluids. I think this is to prevent electrolyte problems which I think happened anyway with some of the (very sick) subjects. There were some deaths too.

Probably high aldosterone.

This reminds me of the potato diet...no real difference although potatoes have better quality protein than rice does.

Apropos to nothing, one book review on a book on Kempner's life, a book written by his medical associate, says he whipped female patients who deviated from the diet. With the women's consent. He sounds like a very strange man.

 

[TeaRex14]

what strikes me is

1. water and fluid intake limitations
2. no salt allowed

They restricted people to small amounts of fluids. I think this is to prevent electrolyte problems which I think happened anyway with some of the (very sick) subjects. There were some deaths too.

Probably high aldosterone.

This reminds me of the potato diet...no real difference although potatoes have better quality protein than rice does.

Apropos to nothing, one book review on a book on Kempner's life, a book written by his medical associate, says he whipped female patients who deviated from the diet. With the women's consent. He sounds like a very strange man.

Maybe the name should be changed to Kempner's rice and BDSM protocol, haha. Yeah, seems like he took a wrong turn on several different occasions. However I thought he was dead on with temporarily removing all fats from the diet. I wonder if the potato diet, plus added salt, plus supplementing missing nutrients, would provide a EFA deficiency. I've seen people give their personal stories about how they lose a lot of weight on potatoes.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Dr. Kempner was treating extremely obese people with extremely high blood pressure, people in a very dangerous place.

I think potato diet has some advantages. Maybe it should be the potato, fruit and fruit juice diet. Maybe more sustainable.

 

[YourUniverse]

Definitely. This summary from Kempner himself is interesting in that it mentions sugar ad libitum:

A patient takes an average of 250 to 350 gm. of rice (dry weight) daily; any kind of rice may be used provided no sodium, chloride, milk, etc. has been added during its processing. … All fruit juices and fruits are allowed, with the exception of nuts, dates, avocados and any dried or canned fruit or fruit derivatives to which substances other than white sugar have been added. Not more than one banana a day should be taken. White sugar and dextrose may be used ad libitum; on an average a patient takes about 100 grams daily, but, if necessary, as much as 500 grams daily should be used. Tomato and vegetable juices are not allowed.​

​

My local university library has one of his books. It will be interesting to see if he measured things like body temperature/pulse/TSH of the dieters, as it would help draw more connections to Broda Barnes.

EDIT: it looks like the article Denise Minger references (Treatment of massive obesity with rice/reduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI) is available to download in PDF here: Treatment of massive obesity with ricereduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss.pdf

Interesting thing to note from that study is the cholesterol levels didn't really change much before and after the weight loss. One group went from 236~ to 228~, the other group from 221~ to 233~ (an increase). So I wonder how that might throw a spanner in things.

I wonder why only 1 banana but so much cane sugar

 

[Nebula]

Dr. Kempner was treating extremely obese people with extremely high blood pressure, people in a very dangerous place.

I think potato diet has some advantages. Maybe it should be the potato, fruit and fruit juice diet. Maybe more sustainable.

That sounds like the diet @Amarsh213 claims he achieves high metabolism on. Fruit, tubers and no salt. Occasional meat. I did try something like that for a while. Strangely I did notice bright red heat production down to my toes sometime after eating baked potato (no salt) and pineapple. This defies my usual results of plenty of salt in my diet. It did make me think there is a potential advantage with a high potassium to sodium ratio and not overdoing animal protein according metabolic rate and need. I just found it unpalatable long term without salt and I was losing too much muscle.