Pyroluria, PLEASE Help

Luann

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Hi everyone, I found some int'russtin stuff here about how Pyroluria (having too much copper) is actually relieved by Omega-6. I was wondering what you guys thought about this, here are the sources: Re: pyroluria...symptom or disorder? » Simus | Psycho-Babble

and the other one:

"Pyroluric mental patients will usually get worse if given fish oils, DHA, EPA, etc. They thrive on Primrose Oil, a good source of AA and other omega 6s." (June 23, 2003) from Commentary on Nutritional Treatment of Mental Disorders | Alternative Mental Health

I have some kind of copper thing going on. Headaches, stress and stimulus seeking, insomnia, weird thinking, loner tendencies. Please don't ban me for being controversial, I really just want to know if Peat or current studies have found anything about unsaturated fat and copper toxicity.

And while you're untangling this knot for me, tell me about adrenal insufficiency and if it is causing Pyroluria, worsening pyro., or caused BY it. Thanks guys.
 

Pointless

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Well Matt Stone suggests getting a proper balance of Omega-3's and Omega-6's if you do not avoid PUFA. So we're not talking too, too controversial, here.

Can you post more about the connection between copper toxicity and pyroluria? Anything that helps this condition besides this anecdote about Omega-6's? I have never had a blood test, but I thrive on high dose zinc and B6. I get noticeable symptoms without 150 mg / day of both. I think I might be copper toxic based on symptoms, but I've never had any kind of test for pyroluria or copper toxicity. I always blamed it on my sluggish liver because I have gallstones and pale stools.
 

Luann

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I thought they were one and the same, but it appears they are not. That's extremely interesting that you have had good results based on the supplements: I'm thinking about buying some B6 and zinc. Also, I did hear something about how high copper might be caused, not by excess dietary copper, but by the body's inability to process / expell copper from food, sounds like what you're saying about your liver.
 

Pointless

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Yes, I thought that pyroluria and copper toxicity had a common cause: a sluggish liver. There have been threads about dealing with that.

When I take any supplemental copper, even a tiny amount, I get bipolar symptoms.
 

Brian

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I used to think I had pyroluria, but I'm not sure it's a real condition anymore. The common prescription of B6 and zinc seem to just be treating energy and protein insufficiency, as B6 is lost easily under those conditions and it is crucial for protein and mineral metabolism. There are so many ways to lower cellular energy in today's stressed environment that I don't think symptoms of pyroluria are anything special, just symptoms of low cellular energy. I'm not 100% sure though.

And like @Pointless said, a hypothyroid liver, or low ceruloplasmin (also common in low thyroid) copper is unbound.

But instead of supplementing thyroid, what worked for me was high amounts of taurine, some B6, and lots of magnesium chloride (orally and through a bath with baking soda). The taurine might help with unbound copper removal through bile, regulating electrolytes (so that magnesium, sodium and potassium are retained well), also with fat and protein digestion, and B6 also helps with mineral metabolism and retention. Once increased intracellular magnesium has raised ATP it may also stimulate thyroid production, then copper and zinc will automatically be regulated correctly and zinc intake should be utilized properly correcting any deficiency.

This approach is what worked best for me.
 

heartnhands

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Well Matt Stone suggests getting a proper balance of Omega-3's and Omega-6's if you do not avoid PUFA. So we're not talking too, too controversial, here.

Can you post more about the connection between copper toxicity and pyroluria? Anything that helps this condition besides this anecdote about Omega-6's? I have never had a blood test, but I thrive on high dose zinc and B6. I get noticeable symptoms without 150 mg / day of both. I think I might be copper toxic based on symptoms, but I've never had any kind of test for pyroluria or copper toxicity. I always blamed it on my sluggish liver because I have gallstones and pale stools.
Can you link to or reference, how you come to consider gall stones and light stool related to "copper overload"? I'm curious to chase that a bit because since increasing calcium with egg shells and raw carrots I find similar lightening. I do eat shrimp which has copper and it would be great to find a way to notice balance and out of balance points.
 

Dopamine

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-I studied pyroluria a lot because I thought I had it... it is not worth your time. Read Ray Peats work and begin applying it.

-Raised copper levels are from high estrogen and a dysfunctional metabolism. It is paradoxical because copper levels will be higher in the brain and serum (circulating in the blood) but lower in the liver and tissues where they are needed. So people will show signs of copper deficiency but also signs of excess copper. Again this is largely from elevated estrogen...

Effect of estrogen on serum and tissue levels of copper and zinc.
Effect of estrogen on serum and tissue levels of copper and zinc. - PubMed - NCBI
"We demonstrated in female Long-Evans-Hooded rats that 4 weeks after implantation with 17 beta-estradiol their serum copper and ceruloplasmin and brain copper levels increased while hepatic copper levels decreased significantly."

-People with "pyroluria" have what seems to be an omega 6 deficiency because they have elevated levels of serum free fatty acids- basically they are rapidly oxidizing fatty acids instead of sugar which is a sign of metabolic dysfunction. I don't think omega 6 actually helps alleviate symptoms... It is just added to supplement regimes because it is seen to be deficient when in reality it is just being burned through at a higher rate. Higher levels of omega 6 just contribute to the problem and are actually part of the cause of pyroluria itself.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
-Supplements that are the most recommended for pyroluria symptoms are b6, b3 and zinc:

-B6 is an antagonist of many stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. stress hormones increase the oxidation of fatty acids like omega 6 so lowering stress hormones will help restore healthy glucose metabolism and stop the rapid usage of omega 6.
Vitamin B6 (P5P) is a glucocorticoid (cortisol) antagonist
Vitamin B6 may be anti-andrenaline, and thus anti-stress

-B3 helps reduce the oxidation of PUFA for fuel and helps restore healthy metabolism as well. Read more about it here:
Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

-Zinc is anti-estrogenic, reduces prolactin, serotonin, Nitric oxide, lowers free fatty acids... so it could also be helpful.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I would start with lowering FFA, stress hormones, and estrogen while restoring metabolism:
-Aspirin
-P5P
-Niacinamide
-Lots of fruit/orange juice
-Lots of salt and high quality protein
-Avoid PUFA
-Ray Peat shredded carrot salad everyday
-Warm hands and feet are a good sign of low stress hormones

Remember to add supplements/drugs 1 at a time to see if they are actually doing anything...

Then you could try:
-Lysine
-Zinc
-You'd probaly also benefit from pregnenolone or progesterone

Just my :2cents:
 
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Luann

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Hey, dopaminogenic. Thanks for pointing out the common parent of high-copper signs, and estrogen and stress illness. That does make life easier. Stay with Peat, kick the PUFA to the curb, watch things get better. I hope. Thanks again.

And Brian I ought to start some Mag. to help my headaches. Please explain about taurine, and B6, and what they do for your body, if you don't mind.
 
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I think Ray Peat mentioned pyrroles were really an endotoxin problem.Also that high doses of zinc and B6 ( no more than 10mg a day) are toxic. I was told pyrroles were a problem too so I took note of what Ray wrote.So I take Idealabs vitamin B now (thanks Haidut) The vitamin B6 I had was way too high, and I was probably poisoning myself with the high doses of zinc. My hands don't tingle now.
 

Dopamine

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Could you please provide a reference to where Ray Peat said B6 was toxic.

Too much B6 in pyridoxine form can cause neuropathy.
B6 in P5p form is less likely to cause this I believe but it can.
 

Sucrates

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I tested for high pyrroles last year, I'm not convinced it's a real condition either. I think the idea about omega 6 comes from them being bound by pyrroles and excreted, combined with the idea that they are "essential". I've seen a small number of people in PD groups have miraculous recoveries from major psychological problems, that's not the norm though. I never did well on high zinc and P5P. The amounts used are very dangerous if the condition is not as it is believed. Many people in the PD groups end up in B6 toxicity groups, with low copper etc. Both P5P and B6 can cause problems, though it's more common with B6, granted doses are higher as it's considered less active. A lot of people have bad reactions to the high omega 6 seed oils too. The signs are very non-specific and are often very long lists. I cleared my headache/migraine with microdose 1P-LSD, though my pulse went up to 128bpm and I had to take propranolol to get it normalised.
 
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Could you please provide a reference to where Ray Peat said B6 was toxic.

Sorry I don't have the reference but noted that he said not to take more than 10mg . ( I took note as my supplement was a much higher dose)
 
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docall18

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I do very well on P5P B6 and zinc. However i have come to believe that pyroluria is just a severe hypothyroid condition.

I think the reason the P5P helps me is that it lowers very high adrenaline, that is compensating for low thyroid. Taking zinc with it seems to stop some P5P side effects (mainly insomnia, vivid dreams etc).

However i get stomach bloating, weight gain etc from P5P. I think this is from serotonin & cortisol increasing to replace the lowered adrenaline.
 

Luann

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I do very well on P5P B6 and zinc. However i have come to believe that pyroluria is just a severe hypothyroid condition.

I think the reason the P5P helps me is that it lowers very high adrenaline, that is compensating for low thyroid. Taking zinc with it seems to stop some P5P side effects (mainly insomnia, vivid dreams etc).

However i get stomach bloating, weight gain etc from P5P. I think this is from serotonin & cortisol increasing to replace the lowered adrenaline.


Seems to be on track with what I've heard on here. Hope your belly bloat goes away soon. It's no fun.
 
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I think you should get tested for pyroluria before you start treating it or even thinking you have it or putting time in to research it........ reminds me of people thinking they have lyme disease because they are sluggish.....
 

Luann

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I think you should get tested for pyroluria before you start treating it or even thinking you have it or putting time in to research it........ reminds me of people thinking they have lyme disease because they are sluggish.....


Yep. Or any one on web Md Lol.
 

Luann

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Hey now they don't all know of the Great peat
Lol
That was me a few months ago before i knew most diseases were one disease in all its forms
 
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