Molecular Iodine: Could This Be A Game Changer For Dentistry?

[Gustav3Y]

PVP-iodine gang reporting in.

Cheap, effective, time-tested and looks cool.

How do you use it, it is common in clinics and hospitals for anything that will require an injection or requires to be cut open.
Do you mouth rinse with it diluted in water?

 

[Sergey]

What brand of mk-7 are you using?

It's worth noting that Camphosal is acidic and could demineralize the enamel of teeth. The chlorine dioxide solution (CDS) I use to make my mouthwash is free from that risk, as the pH is neutral, however having "chlorine" in that name seems to conjure images of being "bleached," thanks to the rascals in media lately.

Liposomal Biocidin is interesting, though I'm wary of anything liposomal given that I have to ingest a lot of PUFA that comes with the the phosphatidylcholine needed to makes liposomal products.

Do you think I could use mk-7 applied by swab on my gums? Would it penetrate easily? As I would need it to penetrate through my gums to the crevices where perio bacteria hide and later re-emerge to cause more teeth to be extracted later? If not, would mixing it with either urea or DMSO make it penetrate deep?

Now I use BetterYou vitamin K2 spray. Nothing special, it just works. There were some brands from Iherb which I used in the past with the same effect, don't remember now. Most likely it was Solgar.
Biocidin LSF has 44 mg of PS per dose, how much of that would be PUFAs?
I am not an expert in all this, but my understanding is that MK-7 itself is not bactericidal etc. It works systemically, after ingestion it concentrates in salivary glands, and changes saliva so that it becomes bactericidal. It also activates some enzymes which are crucial for immune system functioning in and around the teeth, that's what Weston Price work (and later research) was all about. So I used to think that it has to be ingested, not applied topically.

 

[yerrag]

iocidin LSF has 44 mg of PS per dose, how much of that would be PUFAs?

PS is all PSerine. But the lecithin that contains the PS also comes with PUFA. But I don't think the manufacturer shares that information.

I once made my own liposomal vitamin C. It may be micellar instead of liposomal though. I took it one night, and the rest of the night I couldn't sleep one wink. I figure it was the soy PUFA that blocked my sugar metabolism, and screwed up my blood sugar as well. I threw away my liposomal C.

However, I haven't tried a commercial liposomal C product such that made by LivOn. It's possible that I would have a different response to it.

Now I use BetterYou vitamin K2 spray. Nothing special, it just works. There were some brands from Iherb which I used in the past with the same effect, don't remember now. Most likely it was Solgar.
Biocidin LSF has 44 mg of PS per dose, how much of that would be PUFAs?
I am not an expert in all this, but my understanding is that MK-7 itself is not bactericidal etc. It works systemically, after ingestion it concentrates in salivary glands, and changes saliva so that it becomes bactericidal. It also activates some enzymes which are crucial for immune system functioning in and around the teeth, that's what Weston Price work (and later research) was all about. So I used to think that it has to be ingested, not applied topically.

Do you have a link to Weston Price' research relating to mk7? I've wondered why we need to brush our teeth and floss and use waterpiks and then have our teeth cleaned twice a year, and yet animals in the wild and even our pets don't need to. And maybe even native peoples on their indigenous diets. Is mk7 a good part of the reason?

 

[yerrag]

Now I use BetterYou vitamin K2 spray. Nothing special, it just works. There were some brands from Iherb which I used in the past with the same effect, don't remember now. Most likely it was Solgar.

Thanks!

 

[Sergey]

PS is all PSerine. But the lecithin that contains the PS also comes with PUFA. But I don't think the manufacturer shares that information.

I once made my own liposomal vitamin C. It may be micellar instead of liposomal though. I took it one night, and the rest of the night I couldn't sleep one wink. I figure it was the soy PUFA that blocked my sugar metabolism, and screwed up my blood sugar as well. I threw away my liposomal C.

However, I haven't tried a commercial liposomal C product such that made by LivOn. It's possible that I would have a different response to it.


Do you have a link to Weston Price' research relating to mk7? I've wondered why we need to brush our teeth and floss and use waterpiks and then have our teeth cleaned twice a year, and yet animals in the wild and even our pets don't need to. And maybe even native peoples on their indigenous diets. Is mk7 a good part of the reason?

It was a typo, I meant PC. Label clearly says "purified Phosphatidylcholine". One way to access its quality is probably transparency of the liquid, all QS products are transparent and clear, all other liposomal stuff I have seen are not.
I have tried most liposomal supplements out there and came to a conclusion that, similar to MK-7, brand and quality are extremely important. Not +- 25% efficiency/side effects, orders of magnitudes difference. All is important there, PC source and purity, size of lipospheres and who knows what. And similar to MK-7 and plague there is nothing on the market at the moment which come close to QS liposomal formulations. I did compare liposomal vit C and liposomal glutathione from different manufactures, some don't have any effect at all (its easier to feel with glutathione because its poorly absorbed on its own and easily degraded). Some have mild effect, QS is in its own league. From what I hear from them they use purified PC, not lecithin.
I doubt it was soy PUFA which kept you awake, but of course I can be wrong:)
All Weston Price research was about how diet causes tooth decay and gum disease. He found a substance which he called Activator-X, which recently was declared to be the same as vitamin K2. He has published his book "Nutrition and physical degeneration", it is available online at Project Gutenberg of Australia.
At the time he didn't know about all the different forms of vitamin K2, he didn't know about vitamin K2 at all, no one did. He just discovered that butter from grass fed cows, especially those grazing in mid spring or late summer, contains significant amount of the substance which is the core of what he discovered. I don't know why MK-7, which is not very abundant in butter, is so superior to sterilizing the mouth, there is lots of research and discussions about difference between MK-4 and MK-7, with lots of anecdotal reports.
W.Price found that (tadadadaaaam) fermented cod liver oil is critical to his protocol as well. Maybe it was the easies way to obtain vitamins A/D at the time, I don't know.

I really want to find an explanation of why MK-7 has such a superior effect on teeth/mouth. And why does it cause anxiety type symptoms. So far, LPS surge from mouth flora is the most convincing hypothesis to me. Maybe consistent supplementation with MK-4 could achieve the same effect after other tissues are saturated with it.

By the way, QS vitamin D/K2 product worked fine for me too, it has somewhat 70 mcgs of MK-7 in it (but its liposomal).

 

[Sergey]

The answer to vitamin K2 and MK-7 in particular can be superior to all other ways of sterilizing the mouth might be that it can address infections in, for example, salivary glands, and, due to saliva flow, tonsils and oesophagus, even stomach.
I was always wondering, how is upper GI kept sterile in nature. Large intestine is not supposed to be sterile. Small intestine and duodenum are sterilized by the bile. Stomach (and also duodenum) are sterilized by stomach acid. But what was the natural antiseptic for everything above? Probably saliva when body has enough K2.

I had some weird experience with plague recently, which made me thinking that esophagus flora imbalance can be behind many mouth issues, will write about a bit later if its of any interest.

 

[yerrag]

The answer to vitamin K2 and MK-7 in particular can be superior to all other ways of sterilizing the mouth might be that it can address infections in, for example, salivary glands, and, due to saliva flow, tonsils and oesophagus, even stomach.
I was always wondering, how is upper GI kept sterile in nature. Large intestine is not supposed to be sterile. Small intestine and duodenum are sterilized by the bile. Stomach (and also duodenum) are sterilized by stomach acid. But what was the natural antiseptic for everything above? Probably saliva when body has enough K2.

I had some weird experience with plague recently, which made me thinking that esophagus flora imbalance can be behind many mouth issues, will write about a bit later if its of any interest.

Until a year or two ago, I was resigned to accepting that I'm a prolific dental plaque factory. If it were producing as much lithium as plaque, I could build my own EV.

I wasn't expecting it, but I stopped eating foods high in soluble fiber, as I signed on the idea that fiber is not needed for good bowel movement (6 months of 600-800 magnesium supplementation with magbicarb, followed by maintenance mag supp at 400mg elemental). I was on 3 months of antibiotics (doxy, augmentin, zithromax - in succession). All these markedly reduced by plaque, but still white tongue was still there. Then realized what I thought has been eradicated still remained - periodontal bacteria - from having a loose lower premolar - a sure sign of periodontitis, something which I thought is gone after 2 rounds of tooth extractions. This has led me to now using chlorine dioxide, and wanting to learn about using mk7 from you.

I would think often my two cats and how pink their tongues are. I wonder why. Could it be because I don't feed them carbs? I feed them cooked fish and coconut flesh, with some supplements - mostly minerals, b-vitamins, and taurine which is essential for cats, especially those eating cooked foods. They're only 4 years old, so not that old. But I've had a cat before that at about that age, had started to show missing teeth. So I'm wondering if the fish I feed them, which came from fresh fish that's cooked, has plenty of mk7.

Would appreciate more thoughts from you on mk7. The link to Activator X makes it especially intriguing. Had read on Weston Price before. Remember the superb oral health, the symmetry of their teeth and facial structure as well as their good posture. Gets me excited about mk7.

 

[yerrag]

It was a typo, I meant PC. Label clearly says "purified Phosphatidylcholine". One way to access its quality is probably transparency of the liquid, all QS products are transparent and clear, all other liposomal stuff I have seen are not.

I thought it should be PC but didn't bother to ask. And yes, seems like it's the PC and not the PS that is used in liposomal formulations.

I have tried most liposomal supplements out there and came to a conclusion that, similar to MK-7, brand and quality are extremely important. Not +- 25% efficiency/side effects, orders of magnitudes difference. All is important there, PC source and purity, size of lipospheres and who knows what. And similar to MK-7 and plague there is nothing on the market at the moment which come close to QS liposomal formulations. I did compare liposomal vit C and liposomal glutathione from different manufactures, some don't have any effect at all (its easier to feel with glutathione because its poorly absorbed on its own and easily degraded). Some have mild effect, QS is in its own league. From what I hear from them they use purified PC, not lecithin.

I checked Quicksilver's website. Seems the PC used doesn't come with PUFA. They even sell PC itself, which does not indicate it contains PUFAs.

They have a product called D3K2, which contains MK7 at 90mcg/serving. What are your thoughts on it?

This is what they say about their liposomes:
At their highest expression, liposomes bring the power of intravenous therapy into a convenient oral delivery. However, all liposomes are not created equally. Most liposomes on the market use low grades of phospholipids, e.g. raw lecithin, instead of the high-phosphatidylcholine phospholipid mixes necessary for a quality liposome. Other supplement manufacturers typically use cheap shear methods resulting in large (200–600nm), poorly absorbed particles.

Biocidin LSF is interesting. What do you use it for?

 

[Sergey]

Until a year or two ago, I was resigned to accepting that I'm a prolific dental plaque factory. If it were producing as much lithium as plaque, I could build my own EV.

I wasn't expecting it, but I stopped eating foods high in soluble fiber, as I signed on the idea that fiber is not needed for good bowel movement (6 months of 600-800 magnesium supplementation with magbicarb, followed by maintenance mag supp at 400mg elemental). I was on 3 months of antibiotics (doxy, augmentin, zithromax - in succession). All these markedly reduced by plaque, but still white tongue was still there. Then realized what I thought has been eradicated still remained - periodontal bacteria - from having a loose lower premolar - a sure sign of periodontitis, something which I thought is gone after 2 rounds of tooth extractions. This has led me to now using chlorine dioxide, and wanting to learn about using mk7 from you.

I would think often my two cats and how pink their tongues are. I wonder why. Could it be because I don't feed them carbs? I feed them cooked fish and coconut flesh, with some supplements - mostly minerals, b-vitamins, and taurine which is essential for cats, especially those eating cooked foods. They're only 4 years old, so not that old. But I've had a cat before that at about that age, had started to show missing teeth. So I'm wondering if the fish I feed them, which came from fresh fish that's cooked, has plenty of mk7.

Would appreciate more thoughts from you on mk7. The link to Activator X makes it especially intriguing. Had read on Weston Price before. Remember the superb oral health, the symmetry of their teeth and facial structure as well as their good posture. Gets me excited about mk7.

Yeah, I see. I don't have much to add about MK-7. The best thing, in my opinion, would be to try using it and see how plague changes. I see changes in a day (actually, in less than a day). MK-7 is produced by bacterial fermentation, and various bacteria produce different MKs. B.Subtilis produces MK-7 as part of soy fermentation to make natto, Lactococcus produces lots of MK-9 and a bit of MK-7/8 during dairy fermentation, some Staph. strains and other bacteria produces MK7 and other chain length MKs during meat fermentation - dry sausages etc.
So, at least theoretically, its possible that cats (and humans) with "healthy" microbiome can produce enough MK789 in their guts from protein fermentation.
I mentioned earlier that I had very weird experience with plague recently. Several weeks ago I decided to start eating mushrooms again. Boiled for 3-4 hours, all the right stuff. First days - great feeling, tongue cleared, etc. Then, suddenly, lots of plague growth. And man, I couldn't even brush this plague with a toothbrush. It was hard as stone. First I didn't understand whats going on, then realized that mushrooms was the only thing I changed. stopped eating them - it took 4-5 days to get plague under control ( I was not taking MK7 then). Started eating mushrooms again - and there it was again, stone-like plague, which would grow quickly especially in the evening. Strange thing is that it wasn't appearing immediately after eating mushrooms. I'd eat them in the morning, but plague growth peaked at night. Interestingly, during one of those mushroom eating attempts I have tried liquid bacillus subtilis supplement. Plague went away much faster, 1 day instead of 4-5, and I got anxiety like feeling similar to the one from MK-7, even though I didn't take it then. Probably this is an indicator that b.subtilis does indeed produce MK-7 in the gut. Will try to find articles on that.

 

[Sergey]

I thought it should be PC but didn't bother to ask. And yes, seems like it's the PC and not the PS that is used in liposomal formulations.


I checked Quicksilver's website. Seems the PC used doesn't come with PUFA. They even sell PC itself, which does not indicate it contains PUFAs.

They have a product called D3K2, which contains MK7 at 90mcg/serving. What are your thoughts on it?

This is what they say about their liposomes:
At their highest expression, liposomes bring the power of intravenous therapy into a convenient oral delivery. However, all liposomes are not created equally. Most liposomes on the market use low grades of phospholipids, e.g. raw lecithin, instead of the high-phosphatidylcholine phospholipid mixes necessary for a quality liposome. Other supplement manufacturers typically use cheap shear methods resulting in large (200–600nm), poorly absorbed particles.

Biocidin LSF is interesting. What do you use it for?

That's right. I have been using QS products for years and they are superior to everything else I've tried. Their PC is excellent, yes. I actually ordered another bottle yesterday:)
Yes, I mentioned their D/K2 product before, it does have that that "MK-7" effect.

I often use supplements just because it "feels right" to use one. Biocidin LSF is one of my favorites. It seems to be a great tool to control/prevent infections and, unlike most other stuff, I don't get any side effects from it.
QS also has Cat's claw elite, another liposomal anti-infection product. In some ways its superior to Biocidin LSF, together they make a great combo.
They have a third product called microbe manager with completely different set of ingredients. I have tried it once or twice, I wish it didn't have CBD in it.

 

[Sergey]

By the way, I found another food product which significantly increases plague buildup. Coffee. Not saying it lightly, because I can' start my day without it, but there is definitely a connection.

 

[Ras]

@Sergey @yerrag
It's plaque, not plague.

 

[Sergey]

@Sergey @yerrag
It's plaque, not plague.

Ahahahahahah, thank you.
Plague probably doesn't care about mushrooms.

 

[yerrag]

That's right. I have been using QS products for years and they are superior to everything else I've tried. Their PC is excellent, yes. I actually ordered another bottle yesterday:)
Yes, I mentioned their D/K2 product before, it does have that that "MK-7" effect.

I often use supplements just because it "feels right" to use one. Biocidin LSF is one of my favorites. It seems to be a great tool to control/prevent infections and, unlike most other stuff, I don't get any side effects from it.
QS also has Cat's claw elite, another liposomal anti-infection product. In some ways its superior to Biocidin LSF, together they make a great combo.
They have a third product called microbe manager with completely different set of ingredients. I have tried it once or twice, I wish it didn't have CBD in it.

Thanks. Biocidin LSF and Mk7 interests me a lot. I'm gonna hold off though on Biocidin for now, first because it's costly, and secondly because I wanted to explore molecular iodine first. I got to review the link in the original post Molecular Iodine: Could This Be a Game Changer for Dentistry? and found it to be something I should try first. This comparison says it all:

It is compared against PVP-I (@S-VV @Gustav3Y), Chlorine Dioxide 2-part activated (similar to the CDS I've been using), and to Sodium Chlorite 1-part stablised @JanP. @Jam Because it contains none of the other species of iodine that are toxic, I feel safer using this.

It is a "must try" for me. And it's available in Amazon. So I'll order one for myself.

I've used CDS (with DMSO) for 3 weeks already as a mouthwash. I can still signs of bacteria in the slight gum bleeding in a small pustule that doesn't want to go away. I'll continue to use CDS as a mouthwash but will switch to ioRinse (I2 or molecular iodine mouthwash) in about 3 weeks.

Thanks @LeeLemonoil for sharing this. I had to review this thread once again to realize I2 is a "must try," and not just another iodine product. It may really be a game changer!

I'm also going to order the mk7 product of HealthNatura: True K2 Mk7 500mcg 1 ounce and give it a whirl.

 

[yerrag]

p.s. I have very good gut health - in fact, I believe it is perfect. Yet, I have white tongue. I've been perplexed about this.

I'd like to have the pink tongue my cats have. They have good teeth. As does my sister, who also brags about her pink tongue. Grrr

I don't have plaque anymore, or at least it is at its bare minimum. I know, I used to be a plaque factory.

Yet, I have white tongue. So I don't think it is as much as plaque-related as much as periodontal bacteria-related.

So, I'll have to see if my white tongue goes away after using the molecular iodine of ioRinse.

 

[yerrag]

@Sergey here's what my short research on K2 yields, that it helps with bone health, stimulating osteoblastogenesis and suppresses osteoclastogenesis:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...clastogenesis_by_suppressing_NF-kB_activation

Several bone protective factors are reported to exhibit stimulatory activities on bone formation coupled with inhibitory effects on bone resorption; one such factor is vitamin K2. Vitamin K species [K1 (phylloquinone) and K2 (menaquinone)] have long been associated with bone protective activities and are receiving intense interest as nutritional supplements for the prevention or amelioration of bone disease in humans. However, the mechanisms of vitamin K action on the skeleton are poorly defined. Activation of the nuclear factor κB (NF-κB) signal transduction pathway is essential for osteoclast formation and resorption. By contrast, NF-κB signaling potently antagonizes osteoblast differentiation and function, prompting us to speculate that NF-κB antagonists may represent a novel class of dual anti-catabolic and pro-anabolic agents. We now show that vitamin K2 action on osteoblast and osteoclast formation and activity is accomplished by down-regulating basal and cytokine-induced NF-κB activation, by increasing IκB mRNA, in a γ-carboxylation-independent manner. Furthermore, vitamin K2 prevented repression by tumor necrosis factor α (TNFα) of SMAD signaling induced by either transforming growth factor ß (TGFß) or bone morphogenetic protein-2 (BMP-2). Vitamin K2 further antagonized receptor activator of NF-κB (RANK) ligand (RANKL)-induced NF-κB activation in osteoclast precursors. Our data provide a novel mechanism to explain the dual pro-anabolic and anti-catabolic activities of vitamin K2, and may further support the concept that pharmacological modulation of NF-κB signal transduction may constitute an effective mechanism for ameliorating pathological bone loss and for promoting bone health.

While reference is not made to oral bone health specifically, I think it will help on the oral bone structure, especially when the bone that holds the teeth- the maxilla and the mandible - suffers loss by periodontal infection eating into it in advanced cases of periodontitis. This may explain also why people report better facial structure in using vitamin k2, as some threads in this forum would attest to. Perhaps, better bone structure is also a result of the mk7 having an antibiotic effect?

 

[yerrag]

It's interesting that the I2 product is only sold as a mouthwash. Why isn't it being sold for internal use? What if I use it off-label, for internal use? Would it hurt?

Ingredients: Water, potassium iodate, citric acid, zinc gluconate, flavoring, sodium saccharin.

 

[Jam]

It's interesting that the I2 product is only sold as a mouthwash. Why isn't it being sold for internal use? What if I use it off-label, for internal use? Would it hurt?

Ingredients: Water, potassium iodate, citric acid, zinc gluconate, flavoring, sodium saccharin.

My 2 cents: I don't think that product is worth the price over regular Lugol's. Not only that, but I have even more doubts about it after looking at the "inactive ingredients". Not something I would ever use. The reason why it doesn't stain is because of the low-ish concentration of molecular iodine, listed at 100ppm, or 100mg per liter. The amount of Lugol's 5% required for that concentration of molecular iodine would be 4 drops in 100ml of water, and that doesn't normally stain teeth. I have used even higher concentrations without staining.

 

[yerrag]

My 2 cents: I don't think that product is worth the price over regular Lugol's. Not only that, but I have even more doubts about it after looking at the "inactive ingredients". Not something I would ever use. The reason why it doesn't stain is because of the low-ish concentration of molecular iodine, listed at 100ppm, or 100mg per liter. The amount of Lugol's 5% required for that concentration of molecular iodine would be 4 drops in 100ml of water, and that doesn't normally stain teeth. I have used even higher concentrations without staining.

I have some Lugol's 2% and I could dilute it to 1%, as you advised in your last post. And this can be used as a mouthwash? Or can I apply it with a q-tip over the gum of the loose tooth?

 

[Jam]

I have some Lugol's 2% and I could dilute it to 1%, as you advised in your last post. And this can be used as a mouthwash? Or can I apply it with a q-tip over the gum of the loose tooth?

For the 2% you would need 10 drops in 100ml of water to achieve the same concentration, so scale back according to the amount of water you want to swish around. Please do not use tap water, the iodine will create toxic byproducts reacting with the chlorine.