Insulin, Fat Gain

[Mr. God of Cars]

Since insulin is fattening, and polyunsaturated fats cause insulin resistance, and since potassium was the biggest factor in serum (conclusion from authors of that study) in stimulating the oxidation of glucose (sugar), and since fructose itself inhibits glucose's stimulation of insulin, should we actually consume a polyunsaturated fatty acid, high sugar (or fruits (potassium)) diet, in order to prevent obesity? I mean, should we be insulin-resistant? Ray Peat said insulin is anabolic for bone, then that's why he recommends proteins ingestion for preventing osteoporosis, because they stimulate insulin, but isn't starch also, then, anabolic for bone? Why protein, specifically?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Saturated fat can be fattening too.

Protein

"And that’s because cholesterol, next to glucose, is probably our single most important protective all-purpose molecule."-RP (HD sugar II)

Glucose FTW (starch)

 

[Tenacity]

Saturated fat can be fattening too.

Protein

"And that’s because cholesterol, next to glucose, is probably our single most important protective all-purpose molecule."-RP (HD sugar II)

Glucose FTW (starch)

Peat always says to eat sugar with protein to prevent the blood sugar drop from the insulinogenic effect of protein. Do you think one should do the same with starch - eat some sugar to prevent too much glucose being taken from the blood? Whenever I eat starch I feel weird and spaced out, possibly because I'm coming away with a net negative effect on my blood sugar level. The one and only time I've felt great when eating starch was in a meal containing some fat and a very sugary coffee.

 

[Wagner83]

If he said insulin can make us fat he did not say it was useless and insulin resistance would be great (I mean people with diabetes ain't doing particularly well). Afaik he simply favours smaller meals that do not lead to huge and long lasting insulin spikes as well as rollercoaster blood sugar , I don't see think his views are very clear not that our current understanding of insulin is. You can see haidut's posts in the best of forums.

 

[paymanz]

when you become insulin resistant your lean tissues also become unable to use the sugar.

of curse there is two(or three if you also include brain IR, or type three diabetes) types of IR , in lean tissue and in adipose tissue.

you want your lean tissues(muscles,liver and other types of cells) to be as insulin sensitive as possible so when you eat carbs it gets converted to glycogen/or oxidized faster so there is less sugar to convert to fat.

 

[Mito]

Since insulin is fattening

Take a look at the biochemistry of and physiological response to insulin.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

Take a look at the biochemistry of and physiological response to insulin.

If insulin stimulation by glucose is not the cause of fat gain, then what is?

 

[Mito]

If insulin stimulation by glucose is not the cause of fat gain, then what is?

It’s probably energy balance. More energy coming in faster than you can metabolize it. When citrate accumulates in the mitochondria it moves into the cytosol and promotes fatty acid synthesis. One way citrate accumulates is when you eat too much food. The food is broken down to provide fuel for energy metabolism (TCA cycle & electron transport chain (ETC)). If you provide fuel faster than the TCA cycle and ETC can safely metabolize it, then there are regulatory mechanisms that cause citrate to accumulate instead of just continuing in the TCA cycle and eventually ETC. Things that cause reactive oxygen species (ROS) like stress can also cause citrate to accumulate.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

It’s probably energy balance. More energy coming in faster than you can metabolize it. When citrate accumulates in the mitochondria it moves into the cytosol and promotes fatty acid synthesis. One way citrate accumulates is when you eat too much food. The food is broken down to provide fuel for energy metabolism (TCA cycle & electron transport chain (ETC)). If you provide fuel faster than the TCA cycle and ETC can safely metabolize it, then there are regulatory mechanisms that cause citrate to accumulate instead of just continuing in the TCA cycle and eventually ETC. Things that cause reactive oxygen species (ROS) like stress can also cause citrate to accumulate.
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But wait a minute. In order for too much food eaten to get to the cells in a massive spike, it requires some biological factors, such as insulin (for carbohydrates) and low-density lipoproteins (for fats or cholesterol). Starch excessively stimulates insulin by being easily and rapidly digested, and the more blood sugar there is, the more insulin is called. However, sugar is more slowly digested, preventing excessive hyperglycemia that causes high blood insulin levels. So it means that insulin is fattening (besides also being able to increase the oxidation of glucose), but that it depends on the amount of metabolites (glucose) for it to have an effect.

 

[TheDrumGuy]

You want cells to "think" they're in an energy abundant environment, so that they perform as much cellular maintenance as needed to function optimally. In Peat's view, that is pretty much what health is. The insulin resistant state is the opposite of this. Cells are hesitant to pull glucose out of the blood and use it for energy because they think the energy needs to be used for more important functions and organs (like the brain).

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

You want cells to "think" they're in an energy abundant environment, so that they perform as much cellular maintenance as needed to function optimally. In Peat's view, that is pretty much what health is. The insulin resistant state is the opposite of this. Cells are hesitant to pull glucose out of the blood and use it for energy because they think the energy needs to be used for more important functions and organs (like the brain).

I get it, but I would like to know whether increasing the consumption of polyunsaturated fats would cause insulin resistant (it does) and, therefore, prevent insulin's causation of fattening. (But I know polyunsaturated fats are fattening on their on.)

But, in respect to bone physiology, I also want to know the why for Ray Peat recommending protein for stimulation of insulin (since, according to the reference from Bone Density: First Do No Harm, it is anabolic for bone (meaning increased bone elongation, during growth phase, and width(?)) while not even mentioning the fact that starches are also as insulin stimulators as the proteins themselves are [if so, then starches are necessary for optimal growth or, at least, prevention of osteoporosis as proteins are].

 

[TheDrumGuy]

I get it, but I would like to know whether increasing the consumption of polyunsaturated fats would cause insulin resistant (it does) and, therefore, prevent insulin's causation of fattening. (But I know polyunsaturated fats are fattening on their on.)

When you're insulin resistant the energy you consume still goes somewhere. It stays in your blood raising your blood sugar and then gets slowly used up over hours, or if diabetic it goes out in your urine causing kidney damage. In the latter case yes this causes fat loss, as well as muscle loss and presumably generalized tissue loss.

PUFA also slows metabolism in Peat's view. So yes presumably fat cells are slow to take it up, but the other tissues are not using it for energy either so the energy gets stored as fat slowly over hours.

But, in respect to bone physiology, I also want to know the why for Ray Peat recommending protein for stimulation of insulin (since, according to the reference from Bone Density: First Do No Harm, it is anabolic for bone (meaning increased bone elongation, during growth phase, and width(?)) while not even mentioning the fact that starches are also as insulin stimulators as the proteins themselves are [if so, then starches are necessary for optimal growth or, at least, prevention of osteoporosis as proteins are].

Peat sees starch as bad for other reasons, like persorption and fermentation IIRC.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

When you're insulin resistant the energy you consume still goes somewhere. It stays in your blood raising your blood sugar and then gets slowly used up over hours, or if diabetic it goes out in your urine causing kidney damage. In the latter case yes this causes fat loss, as well as muscle loss and presumably generalized tissue loss.

PUFA also slows metabolism in Peat's view. So yes presumably fat cells are slow to take it up, but the other tissues are not using it for energy either so the energy gets stored as fat slowly over hours.

Yeah. So I think it means there is not way to test it out, that is, to test whether polyunsaturated fats are able to prevent insulin's stimulation of fattening without removing their own stimulating effect on fat gain.

Peat sees starch as bad for other reasons, like persorption and fermentation IIRC.

But Peat also sees some parts of proteins (aminoacids) such as tryptophan as bad either, as in causing an excess of serotonin, which increases estrogen, which increases prolactin, which, for example, causes osteoporosis.

 

[TheDrumGuy]

He doesn't say tryptophan is bad, it's about ratios. He argues that a muscle meat heavy diet has a larger proportion of tryptophan than a diet that makes use of the whole animal.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

He doesn't say tryptophan is bad, it's about ratios. He argues that a muscle meat heavy diet has a larger proportion of tryptophan than a diet that makes use of the whole animal.

These types of lines prove Ray Peat believes and demonstrates (if one reads / follows the references) that tryptophan is bad, not just about the ratios:


"When rats were fed a diet completely lacking tryptophan for a short period, or a diet containing only one fourth of the “normal” amount for a more prolonged period, the results were surprising: They kept the ability to reproduce up to the age of 36 months (versus 17 months for the rats on the usual diet), and both their average longevity and their maximum longevity increased significantly. They looked and acted like younger rats. (A methionine-poor diet also has dramatic longevity-increasing effects.)

On the tryptophan-poor diet, the amount of serotonin in the brain decreased. When brain serotonin decreases, the level of testosterone in male animals increases. More than 20 years ago, a chemical (p-chlorophenylalanine) that inhibits serotonin synthesis was found to tremendously increase libido."

The protein ratio may be of some relevance, but only because by doing it or eating this way, you get glycine, which helps to protect against the harmful effects of tryptophan.

 

[Mito]

But wait a minute. In order for too much food eaten to get to the cells in a massive spike, it requires some biological factors, such as insulin (for carbohydrates) and low-density lipoproteins (for fats or cholesterol). Starch excessively stimulates insulin by being easily and rapidly digested, and the more blood sugar there is, the more insulin is called. However, sugar is more slowly digested, preventing excessive hyperglycemia that causes high blood insulin levels. So it means that insulin is fattening (besides also being able to increase the oxidation of glucose), but that it depends on the amount of metabolites (glucose) for it to have an effect.

Hormones like insulin deliver messages to cells. The cells may choose to follow the message or ignore the message. The cell does this by deciding what is best for itself. When insulin tells a cell to store fat, the cell is going to ignore that message if it needs to burn that fat right now for energy. That’s what I meant by energy balance. If you’re a lean individual in a caloric deficit, you will likely burn fat rather than store it even in the presense of insulin. If you’re overweight in a caloric excess, then you will likely store the fat.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

Hormones like insulin deliver messages to cells. The cells may choose to follow the message or ignore the message. The cell does this by deciding what is best for itself. When insulin tells a cell to store fat, the cell is going to ignore that message if it needs to burn that fat right now for energy. That’s what I meant by energy balance. If you’re a lean individual in a caloric deficit, you will likely burn fat rather than store it even in the presense of insulin. If you’re overweight in a caloric excess, then you will likely store the fat.

I don't think one can get fat or obese by eating pounds of fruits as the only source of carbohydrate. Ray Peat said fructose inhibits glucose's stimulation of insulin, decreasing the tendency to gain fat and that eating starch is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Starch also promotes diabetes by increasing cortisol (which inhibits the oxidation of glucose) and other stress hormones after lowering blood sugar or causing hypoglycemia. If it was all about calorie in and out, then high-altitude people or culture would not have a tendency to stay leaner, as stated by RP in an article about fatigue and recuperation; what explains that tendency is probably carbon dioxide, which increases the Krebs cycle, promoting the oxidation or oxidative consumption of glucose, decreasing its conversion into fat.