Bill Gates, Real-Life Supervillain, Says Meditation Is His New Favorite Habit (2018)

tankasnowgod

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Oh, wow. It must not exist if it’s not a double-blinded, placebo controlled, 1000 participant study.

Complete strawman. Where did I say "It must not exist?"

I simply stated (accurately) that a meta-analysis isn't proof.
 
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AlexR

AlexR

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Complete strawman. Where did I say "It must not exist?"

I simply stated (accurately) that a meta-analysis isn't proof.
We can’t say anything truly exists unless we have a thousand person, double-blinded, placebo-controlled study about it! People like you are so vulnerable to establishment brainwashing since they are the only ones who have the resources to carry out something like a thousand person study which is why they brainwash people like you to repeat it in the face of anything that conflicts with their “settled science”. There are too many credible reports, anecdotes, and studies that prove meditation can induce psychosis. Just because it’s not “proven” by your ridiculous standards, doesn’t mean it’s not proven to occur.
 

dhtsupreme

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We can’t say anything truly exists unless we have a thousand person, double-blinded, placebo-controlled study about it! People like you are so vulnerable to establishment brainwashing since they are the only ones who have the resources to carry out something like a thousand person study which is why they brainwash people like you to repeat it in the face of anything that conflicts with their “settled science”. There are too many credible reports, anecdotes, and studies that prove meditation can induce psychosis. Just because it’s not “proven” by your ridiculous standards, doesn’t mean it’s not proven to occur.
Correction: There are too many more credible reports, anecdotes, and studies that prove meditation works
 

tankasnowgod

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We can’t say anything truly exists unless we have a thousand person, double-blinded, placebo-controlled study about it! People like you are so vulnerable to establishment brainwashing since they are the only ones who have the resources to carry out something like a thousand person study which is why they brainwash people like you to repeat it in the face of anything that conflicts with their “settled science”. There are too many credible reports, anecdotes, and studies that prove meditation can induce psychosis. Just because it’s not “proven” by your ridiculous standards, doesn’t mean it’s not proven to occur.
Ridiculous.

Let's delve into the case report you posted, shall we?

A 24-year-old Caucasian male artist was referred because of an acute sensation of being mentally split during a Hindustantype meditation. It was an unguided and intense session. The patient had recently trained extensively for a marathon, which resulted in a weight loss of 7 kg. In addition he was experiencing relationship problems and work-related stress. There was no fasting or sleep deprivation. His history mentioned one hypomanic and a couple of mild depressive episodes for which he was never treated. There was no drug abuse or epilepsy. The family history revealed no neuropsychiatric disorders. Psychiatric examination showed short-lasting visual dysperceptions and hallucinations, ideas of reference and delusional convictions that he had caused the end of the world. The patient experienced various bright colours. These phenomena were accompanied by pananxiety and feelings of guilt. Physical examination and laboratory investigations showed no abnormalities. Neuropsychological testing disclosed no cognitive deficits. His personality profile, as assessed with the MMPI-2 and NEO five-factor inventory, showed a vulnerable personality structure with poor insight in emotional functioning and a depressive, anxious disposition. Treatment with haloperidol (5 mg daily; plasma concentration: 1.9 g/l) resulted in a disappearance of the psychotic symptoms within one week. Haloperidol was gradually tapered off over three months and subsequently stopped. One month later he developed a relapse of psychosis with paranoid and negativistic delusional thoughts, intense anxieties, mood swings and suicidal ideation. Risperidone 2 mg daily was started to which valproic acid (1,000 mg daily; plasma concentration: 65 mg/l) was added because of his mood instability. This treatment regimen led to a rapid and complete recovery from psychotic symptoms and a gradual normalization of mood that persisted at follow-up after six months.

So, it certainly seems like there was more to this story than simply "meditation causing psychosis." It certainly sounds like it might have been a trigger (especially since it's described as "particularly intense"), but not the only cause. Interesting, too, that a serotonin antagonist (in Haloperidol) was able to stop symptoms within a week. Sounds like other factors (like maybe the marathon) could have played a role, possibly bigger than the meditation itself. Even the authors of the study state as much-

This case deals with a young man who developed a relapsing acute psychosis with polymorphic symptomatology, precipitated by intense and unguided meditation. Additional stressful factors may have been physical exhaustion as well as work and relationship problems.

There are 19 other cases briefly mentioned in this paper. This is not the hardcore proof that you are making it out to be. Maybe something that demands further study.

There is certainly nothing to suggest that someone who meditates for 15-30 minutes a day will develop psychosis, or any other mental condition.
 
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AlexR

AlexR

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Ridiculous.

Let's delve into the case report you posted, shall we?



So, it certainly seems like there was more to this story than simply "meditation causing psychosis." It certainly sounds like it might have been a trigger (especially since it's described as "particularly intense"), but not the only cause. Interesting, too, that a serotonin antagonist (in Haloperidol) was able to stop symptoms within a week. Sounds like other factors (like maybe the marathon) could have played a role, possibly bigger than the meditation itself. Even the authors of the study state as much-



There are 19 other cases briefly mentioned in this paper. This is not the hardcore proof that you are making it out to be. Maybe something that demands further study.

There is certainly nothing to suggest that someone who meditates for 15-30 minutes a day will develop psychosis, or any other mental condition.
Wow! Of one of the nearly 30 cases, the guy exercised a little too much and argued with his wife beforehand. That totally justifies that it wasn’t the meditation and it wasn’t even that bad, he only had to be put into a psych ward for a week on psychoactive drugs to become normal again. Can you sense my sarcasm? It’s hilarious that you’re still so insistent on meditation being completely harmless after posting that. I’m not even sure if you aren’t trolling me now with that response. It’s even more laughable given that meditation is recommended to relieve stress from the very things that you allege caused the psychosis.
 

Drareg

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Meditating is the elite euphemism for a Jeffrey Epstein like service, they changed it from "massage" to meditating.
 

tankasnowgod

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Wow! Of one of the nearly 30 cases, the guy exercised a little too much and argued with his wife beforehand. That totally justifies that it wasn’t the meditation and it wasn’t even that bad, he only had to be put into a psych ward for a week on psychoactive drugs to become normal again.
30 cases over 4 decades. Clearly, meditation is the most dangerous practice in the history of ever. Like, I'm sure you totally can't find that many people that died in car accidents over a 4 decade timeframe.

And again, the authors of the study thought it was important enough to clearly note in their paper.
It’s hilarious that you’re still so insistent on meditation being completely harmless after posting that. I’m not even sure if you aren’t trolling me now with that response. It’s even more laughable given that meditation is recommended to relieve stress from the very things that you allege caused the psychosis.
Do you understand the English Language? You have accused me of stating all sorts of things I never once said.

Quote the post where I said "meditation is completely harmless." I never once said that.

What I will say (and completely stand by) is that you are making claims not supported by the evidence you posted, and blowing any potential dangers of meditation completely out of proportion.
 
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AlexR

AlexR

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30 cases over 4 decades. Clearly, meditation is the most dangerous practice in the history of ever. Like, I'm sure you totally can't find that many people that died in car accidents over a 4 decade timeframe.

And again, the authors of the study thought it was important enough to clearly note in their paper.

Do you understand the English Language? You have accused me of stating all sorts of things I never once said.

Quote the post where I said "meditation is completely harmless." I never once said that.

What I will say (and completely stand by) is that you are making claims not supported by the evidence you posted, and blowing any potential dangers of meditation completely out of proportion.
It’s not just a few cases. It runs rampant and you would know that if you did your due diligence of researching the topic you are trying to argue about like you know anything about it when you clearly don’t. Just do a quick google search and scroll through Reddit and other forums and see how many people develop severe psychosis after meditating. Meditation retreats make you sign waivers acknowledging the risks of meditation since so many people have complete mental breakdowns during these retreats. Even meditators know that meditation can cause some serious damage, but they are brainwashed into believing that they are actually experiencing some sort of cleansing reaction of the mind and ascending or whatever BS they attribute it to. It is extremely clear to me and anybody who does a few minutes of research that meditation can seriously damage the mind. It is also painfully obvious that those who meditate consistently develop weird and unsettling personality traits that they themselves do not recognize are harmful. High profile meditators include people like Jeffrey Epstein and Sam Harris who have clearly developed anti-social tendencies probably related to their meditation practice. The harmful effects of meditation is something that need to be investigated further and not brushed under the rug.
 

dhtsupreme

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Like this one?

This is what you call research? The person said it was overall a positive experience.

"In general I think this experience had a positive effect on my outlook about life, and although I still think that there is the danger of societal collapse triggered by resource depletion, the best one can do as an individual is to transform their awareness and help others transform theirs."

Someone replied and made a strong distinction between psychosis and kensho
"Some people in this thread seem to be thinking that psychosis is some kind of awakening experience. It isn't. Psychosis isn't a type of kensho. Psychosis is a break from reality. Kensho is insight into reality. They are pratically the polar opposites of each other.

It because of stories like the OPs that responsible meditation teachers recommend people start off meditating for small amounts and slowly work up to larger sessions, and before accepting someone on a retreat ask questions about things like their mental health history, whether they've experienced any trauma, and drugs they've taken in the past, etc.

Sometimes meditation can reveal things we've repressed, like the death of a loved one or childhood trauma, and its important for meditators to understand that these things can be brought to the surface through meditation. In theory, we would all just stick to our practice as such difficult things arise, find balance with them, and they'd be nothing but a small bump in the road. But in reality things aren't usually plain sailing.

It may have been possible for the OP to have come away with similar insights without having a psychotic episode. It's important to meditate with care, take a small step at a time, because there are many instances of people becoming overwhelmed, leading to situations like the OPs. In the OPs case, thankfully it seems that, putting the psychotic episode itself aside, they've come out of it relatively unscathed. That, unfortunately, isn't always the case"


Psychosis- Possible symptoms include delusions, hallucinations, talking incoherently, and agitation. The person with the condition usually isn't aware of his or her behavior.


Meditation increases awareness and has been used to help those with psychosis
 
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AlexR

AlexR

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Like this one?

This is what you call research? The person said it was overall a positive experience.

"In general I think this experience had a positive effect on my outlook about life, and although I still think that there is the danger of societal collapse triggered by resource depletion, the best one can do as an individual is to transform their awareness and help others transform theirs."

Someone replied and made a strong distinction between psychosis and kensho
"Some people in this thread seem to be thinking that psychosis is some kind of awakening experience. It isn't. Psychosis isn't a type of kensho. Psychosis is a break from reality. Kensho is insight into reality. They are pratically the polar opposites of each other.

It because of stories like the OPs that responsible meditation teachers recommend people start off meditating for small amounts and slowly work up to larger sessions, and before accepting someone on a retreat ask questions about things like their mental health history, whether they've experienced any trauma, and drugs they've taken in the past, etc.

Sometimes meditation can reveal things we've repressed, like the death of a loved one or childhood trauma, and its important for meditators to understand that these things can be brought to the surface through meditation. In theory, we would all just stick to our practice as such difficult things arise, find balance with them, and they'd be nothing but a small bump in the road. But in reality things aren't usually plain sailing.

It may have been possible for the OP to have come away with similar insights without having a psychotic episode. It's important to meditate with care, take a small step at a time, because there are many instances of people becoming overwhelmed, leading to situations like the OPs. In the OPs case, thankfully it seems that, putting the psychotic episode itself aside, they've come out of it relatively unscathed. That, unfortunately, isn't always the case"


Psychosis- Possible symptoms include delusions, hallucinations, talking incoherently, and agitation. The person with the condition usually isn't aware of his or her behavior.


Meditation increases awareness and has been used to help those with psychosis
It is still embarrassing to remember all the details of this, but it can be summarized with one word: delirium. I was totally out of myself, and what is worse, I was acting in inappropriate ways with other people. For instance I was being hosted by a girl, and I acted violently smashing a cup against a wall, and throwing a chair to the floor. I still remember how my mind was watching in horror how my body was acting. It was stuff for nightmares…

Eventually when I was running wild in the streets, whirling around and eating flowers, somebody called the police and they brought me to the hospital. I never had drugs in my life, but the trip with the ambulance was the most out of the world experience I had in this life. All kind of mind-experiences about manipulating atoms, light reflection fractal patterns, multi-dimensionality… Finally, after being in the psych ward on anti-psychotics for a week, I slowly regained control.

It still took me several months on a low dose of medication to be back to my older self, rational, grounded, and at peace.
I’m not sure if you’re serious. Who cares if he said this was overall a positive experience? He wouldn’t be saying that if he killed someone or harmed himself during his meditation-induced psychosis. Can you imagine being a normal guy who is an engineer and just bored with life, someone who has never taken drugs before, and then smashing cups and chairs and eating flowers off the street because you thought meditation would give you some purpose? Is this really how delusional and brainwashed you are about meditation that you see somebody potentially destroying their life, but he thought it was somehow a positive and a good experience so it’s a good thing overall somehow? What other harmless, low-risk activity can trigger this kind of behavior? It’s clear that meditation has made you crazy too if you think this is somehow in support of your argument.
 

dhtsupreme

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I feel bad for him.

It does prove the point that this was self induced not meditation induced.

"One year ago I had a break of psychosis after a long stretch of meditation"
Once again the long stretches of meditation were the only times the few people that got the "psychosis" actually got it. And those cases like his were temporary

"I quit my job, left my apartment, and went for a 3-months mindfulness retreat in France."

Who does that? Three months??? Does that sound normal to you when you only had several meditation experiences?
I understand quitting your job when it's boring and you feel no connection. But the rest of that is too much and way too soon

That's like saying I tried walking a few times and now I'm going to run a marathon. That's what he attempted to do. No balance. As I bolded before "It because of stories like the OPs that responsible meditation teachers recommend people start off meditating for small amounts and slowly work up to larger sessions"

"The schedule was quite intense , meditation, talks, mindful walking, eating in community, sharing experiences, a bit of light work, more meditation, and silence."

He didn't have a psychotic episode here so it wasn't the retreat or "experts". I personally would be against him going. 3 months is ridiculous when you've only had a few sessions and just made huge life changes on top of that.

"but now instead of just two short sessions a day, I was totally obsessed with it, spending 6-8h meditating per day after some light work in the morning."

That's not normal. Like seriously why?? It's the individual at this point not the practice. He went to another center and continued to practice a technique he learned from a different center for a significantly greater amount of time with no slow build up or breaks . The exact opposite of what most meditators would instruct. i don't even meditate consistently and this is clearly someone that took it way too far with plenty of risks. He could've been doing the technique wrong and nobody would know

This is not "being a normal guy who is an engineer and just bored with life, someone who has never taken drugs before, and then smashing cups and chairs and eating flowers off the street"

There's a strong difference between what he experienced and what others experience. Mainly because there's a big difference between what he did and what others do. His approach was wrong on so many levels. If there's other cases like this then I'm fully convinced it's based on the approach the individual takes and their past history. If you can't see how his choices can lead to temporary psychotic states or some sort of breakdown then idk man
 
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