Bernie Sanders Defends Democratic Socialism

[thomas00]

Managers are not dictators.

They aren't known for giving orders you can refuse if you want.

Do you have a computer? A phone? Shampoo? Coke? How many products do you use in a day? They were all made by companies with managers. If you are against capitalism stop purchasing the products it makes.

Thirty six.

And until there is a viable alternative I have to keep washing my hair with capitalist shampoo. Not so many choices for a system that prides itself on.....choice.



You can't even opt-out and go live in the woods anymore

Tent City USA

 

[InChristAlone]

They aren't known for giving orders you can refuse if you want.




Thirty six.

And until there is a viable alternative I have to keep washing my hair with capitalist shampoo. Not so many choices for a system that prides itself on.....choice.



You can't even opt-out and go live in the woods anymore

Tent City USA

Well when you sign up for a job, you have to do the job or you get fired! That's what you are getting paid to do. If the workers got to choose which tasks they'd like to do and which they didn't no company would be successful would it? If you have a contract to do someone's roof you can't just decide not to do part of it, you have a contract to do the work! Managers don't dictate a worker do something outside of the job duties they signed up to get paid for. They just make sure work gets done safely and efficiently while they themselves are also working.

Ah but you see there are many choices still in the US. You may not be able to go completely off grid, but you can grow all your own food, make your own products if you want to all the while teaching the future generations to be more sustainable. Just lookup homesteaders of America. Lots of opportunity to be had in the US if you don't want to be a cog in the system.

 

[Cirion]

People living above their means is not a caricature, and inflicts virtually all Americans in this country and probably most people in most civilized countries. Basic economics/finance is not a skill anyone owns anymore. That's fact. BTW, even many rich people have no money skills and have next to zero net worth! Yes, it's very possible to make millions a year and yet have zero or even negative net worth. Let that sink in for a moment. These types of people are more common than you might think. I've heard second hand of many rich people with huge incomes (at least 500k a yr) living paycheck to paycheck, no safety net, no savings. The only people who are truly wealthy (large net worth) are the people who actually SAVE money. It's very possible to be middle class and be wealthier than someone who makes a much bigger income than you. Like I said, I indirectly know someone who has $10M+ net worth on less than 200k a yr salary. Yet there are many rich people with huge incomes (> $1M a yr) who have less than 500k net worth. What's wrong here? No financial sense. It's even possible for someone relatively poor to become wealthy. It just takes a frugal lifestyle and a willingness to invest. It'll take a few more yrs than the middle class or rich person, sure, but anyone can do it.

I actually consider myself a centric to a degree because I do acknowledge some people are poor due to reasons outside their control and need help. I'm not an evil person, I want them to get help. But they also need to be taught how to handle money, so they don't become bankrupt a second time. I don't consider all poor people to be lazy. But some are, and many or even most of them have no financial education, so we need to teach them. So I acknowledge that yes, some people are in unfortunate situations (especially sick and old, orphans etc) that we absolutely should help, or those just having poor luck in life (losing a house to an earthquake with no earthquake insurance)) etc. That's fine. I got no issues there at all. I don't even have issues helping out people who got there due to their own dumb fault, but they better darn sure learn their lesson, because I don't want my tax dollars to help someone making the same dumb mistakes more than once. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me... ya'know...

 

[managing]

There are also millions of workers in the UK on tax credits (government supplemented pay for low income workers), partly because unions were crushed via legislation so pay bargaining is non existent but also because the minimum wage leaves you below the poverty line.

Exploitation is certainly not limited to the third world. It's patently clear a business should have to pay its workers enough to live comfortably to be allowed to grow.

Exploitation is a given without regulation. As thomas00 said, a purely capitalist free market allows sociopaths to thrive - everyone has to follow the lowest common denominator in order to compete. A true race to the bottom.

It's not that everyone that looks to start a business is a bastard, it's just rigged to help the bastards thrive :)

See here - .

Exploitation in plain numbers!

I don't understand. When I started working (other than farm work) in 1985, the minimum wage was $3.35/hr. How can it have been 11 something in 1968?

Never mind, I see that it was backwards adjusted now. Misread first time.

 

[managing]

The liberal philosophy is - woe is me, there is nothing I can do, give me free money because I can't make money, let's smash the system, complain about rich people, and riot in ferguson etc meanwhile being forever poor because complaining is easy. By definitions liberals are negative, defeatist, depressed people.

The conservative philosophy is - look at all the opportunities - sure the environment may not be ideal, but I can work with what I have to improve my station in life, smashing the system is not realistic, so let me game the system that already exists. Conservatives are positive, opportunistic, pick-yourself-up after defeat kind of people.

Wow. Do you have any idea how trite and self-serving this comes across?

 

[Beefcake]

inheritance, financial scams, rent seeking, cosy relationships with politicians who helped them exploit labour. Psychopaths climb to the top in capitalist societies.

Thats you being stereotypical. Just because someone has done well for themselves does not mean they are psychopaths, exploit labour, financial or tax scams.

 

[Cirion]

Wow. Do you have any idea how trite and self-serving this comes across?

Self-serving or not, it's the truth. Look, life is pain, we can either complain about life being pain, or learn how to take the pain and get stronger/better. My life has mostly been pain, I have 3 decades of experience with depression, but I haven't let it defeat me. I've learned to take it and learn to overcome in spite of it. Take life by the horns, don't let life take you by the balls.

 

[managing]

IMO what this country needs are centrists... it seems like people are increasingly picking one of two sides and then rigidly attacking the other.

One side thinks every rich person is an uncaring psychopath, the other thinks every poor/fat/oppressed person is that way due to personal character flaws and doesn't realize that just because the system worked for them, it doesn't mean that it's not broken.

Back when Trump ran for president, I predicted he would break the Republican party. I believe thats what has happened. Pushed so far to the right, and completely morally corrupted in pursuit of power.

Next is the Democratic party. Led at the moment by a centrist. But a centrist for what reason? For the pursuit of power.

Yet the fundamental problem is not liberal-centrist-conservative. Its polemic, either/or, winner takes all. My hope is that 2020 also fractures the Democratic party. Let it become the party of moderate democrats AND republicans. In the hands of Biden it will indeed be the "moderate" party. Let the "liberal" faction of the Democrats secede and form a legitimate "liberal" party.

What good comes of this? Forced compromise. Forced moderation. I don't actually much like "centrism" as a logic or philosophy. But tying the hands of would-be rulers and making them govern in cooperation with other interests is . . . an improvement.

 

[managing]

Self-serving or not, it's the truth. Look, life is pain, we can either complain about life being pain, or learn how to take the pain and get stronger/better. My life has mostly been pain, I have 3 decades of experience with depression, but I haven't let it defeat me. I've learned to take it and learn to overcome in spite of it. Take life by the horns, don't let life take you by the balls.

No. It isn't. Try to get out of your own skin and complexify your outlook.

 

[LuMonty]

@sugarbabe speaking of big pharma and Amazon, I was amazed when I was able to order CPAP equipment at the same price as I was paying with insurance. The same price, or cheaper for off-brand. The masks are the same price and brand that I got through insurance at the same price. I think it's great what you and your family were able to do.

@thomas00 I have to agree with sugarbabe here. My last job was at a Walmart, which is typically paired with Amazon in these discussions. Know what I did once my health was at risk and HR/management wanted to act like children and say "I don't have to work there"? I saved up 3 months pay, slashed my budget (have since reduced it twice more) and quit. I live comfortably. I don't see how gov't is the answer anyhow: because I don't have a specific health problem, I'm technically able to work more hours and don't qualify for food stamps, etc. My wife and I live in subsidized housing, because thanks to the gov't, about half of the apartments are assisted in some way. A new building was made specifically for those well off, $1000/month rent (about $400 more than average here). Had a waiting list and everything. With that niche filled, there's no reason to blow a ton of money to build new housing.

@Cirion You're spot on! My wife and I will be debt free in 4 years, probably less despite a crappy "first-time-loan". We live far within our means and, if we had to, could move. We have more money saved than anyone else we know. Contrast that with my brother: He pays less than $100 a month on student loans and still can't balance a budget. He had a job with near-guaranteed overtime, but he quit. By now he could have paid off everything, even his massive student loan. Instead, I had to haul him across a couple states to beg our grandparents for money. Only thing I want to do is get into some sort of investment, but I'm not sure stuff like crypto work and how it compares to traditional options.

 

[Cirion]

No. It isn't. Try to get out of your own skin and complexify your outlook.

Answer me this - Do you think 100% of people are poor because of bad luck and evil CEOs and corporations? Can you even acknowledge that at least some people are poor due to bad/stupid choices? I never said 100% people are poor because of stupid choices, but it seems liberals think 100% of people are poor due to bad luck.

Make good choices, reduce chances of being poor. THIS is literally my message in one sentence. It doesn't make probability of being poor 0%, but it surely reduces it dramatically.

I think herein lies the caricatures that are repeatedly spouted. Somehow, even though I have said probably 5 times already in this thread, that I don't believe 100% of people are poor due to bad choices, that this is being falsely portrayed. But I've yet to see any liberal in this thread deny that at least SOME people are poor due to bad choices.

Are we trying to absolve people of responsibility? A safety net shouldn't be abused by people making poor choices. A safety net should be used by people with BAD LUCK. see the difference? I have 1000x more sympathy for the single parent who lost everything in a freak earthquake or tornado, than someone who decided to buy a $2M house with a 400k income and go broke this way.

 

[lampofred]

But no one purposefully tries to be stupid. They have all been dumbed down into having no critical thinking skills via school, poisonous diet, advertising, subtle messages in TV, etc. The only people who can break out of a system like that with brain power intact are unique geniuses like RP, not the typical person. And even RP said that his mother took a lot of corpus callosum when she was pregnant with him, so his intelligence was not conscious choice -- again it was due to environment.

 

[sunraiser]

Nobody is saying poor people are never poor via hedonism - of course rich people get poor too.

We're just saying a system shouldn't condemn people to their born-into poverty just to spite those few that made bad choices. It's fundamentally impossible with current wealth hoarding and absence of regulation for even large numbers of people to "make it" - the video patently states (I bet half the discussion haven't watched it) that 3 families in the US horde more wealth than 160million put together.

The non-hoarded money simply isn't there to allow everyone to "work hard and act frugally". It's why unions need to be strengthened and encouraged and legislation against them curbed, alongside making sure social infrastructure is there.

Self aggrandising doesn't serve society or even yourself in the long run - none of us here are asking for handouts, I bet most here don't need them. It doesn't mean you can't see the chasm of opportunity in society and understand the purpose of taxation and public investment.

It's difficult to have a conversation when no one is actually saying "give lazy poor people handouts" when every other response is somehow addressing that imaginary point.

 

[Cirion]

But no one purposefully tries to be stupid. They have all been dumbed down into having no critical thinking skills via school, poisonous diet, advertising, subtle messages in TV, etc. The only people who can break out of a system like that with brain power intact are unique geniuses like RP, not the typical person. And even RP said that his mother took a lot of corpus callosum when she was pregnant with him, so his intelligence was not conscious choice -- again it was due to environment.

Sorry, but it's a cop out. I had suicidal level depression as a young adult at times and still got a 4.0 GPA in engineering school and even though I wasn't taught financial things, managed to teach myself during all this hypothyroid.

Nobody is saying poor people are never poor via hedonism - of course rich people get poor too.

We're just saying a system shouldn't condemn people to their born-into poverty just to spite those few that made bad choices. It's fundamentally impossible with current wealth hording and absence of regulation for even large numbers of people to "make it" - the video patently states (I bet half the discussion haven't watched it) that 3 families in the US horde more wealth than 160million put together.

The non-horded money simply isn't there to allow everyone to "work hard and act frugally". It's why unions need to be strengthened and encouraged and legislation against them curbed, alongside making sure social infrastructure is there.

Self aggrandising doesn't serve society or even yourself in the long run - none of us here are asking for handouts, I bet most here don't need them. It doesn't mean you can't see the chasm of opportunity in society and understand the purpose of taxation and public investment.

It's difficult to have a conversation when no one is actually saying "give lazy poor people handouts" when every other response is somehow addressing that imaginary point.

OK, I'm gonna ask you a simple question that I think, is fair and productive. Should we educate people, especially those on government assistance programs, financial programs like Dave ramsey, rich dad poor dad (and others), and make it mandatory for people to attend these classes in order to get assistance, in the hopes that people will learn, absorb, and improve their lives and then get off government assistance? Isn't the goal eventually to get people off government assistance yes or no? (Excluding people like very sick or elderly or orphans of course)

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. The people who got poor due to bad choices, are very likely to get poor again due to bad choices, unless we teach them differently.

So if your answer is no, how can we reasonably expect people to ever break out of being poor? If your answer is yes, then let's make it happen. I think it would be a great thing.

 

[Beefcake]

Nobody is saying poor people are never poor via hedonism - of course rich people get poor too.

We're just saying a system shouldn't condemn people to their born-into poverty just to spite those few that made bad choices. It's fundamentally impossible with current wealth hording and absence of regulation for even large numbers of people to "make it" - the video patently states (I bet half the discussion haven't watched it) that 3 families in the US horde more wealth than 160million put together.

The non-horded money simply isn't there to allow everyone to "work hard and act frugally". It's why unions need to be strengthened and encouraged and legislation against them curbed, alongside making sure social infrastructure is there.

Self aggrandising doesn't serve society or even yourself in the long run - none of us here are asking for handouts, I bet most here don't need them. It doesn't mean you can't see the chasm of opportunity in society and understand the purpose of taxation and public investment.

It's difficult to have a conversation when no one is actually saying "give lazy poor people handouts" when every other response is somehow addressing that imaginary point.

Yes you shouldnt be condemned becuase your african american, latin or a woman. You should get extra help both in school and at home if you are one of the unfortunate. You should have a chance to be rehabilitated and reinstalled into society after you done something bad and ended up in prison. This is all sounds great. Im all for it but thats not how it works and likely never will be. People judge to much, always has and always will. When you come to a company with a crime record of burglary and say Im looking for a job and then shows up a similair guy without a crime record they will hire the one with a non criminal past. Its basically natural selection doing its job. Should we try to even out the field of course we should as much as possible but you will never be able to do it completely. And thats a shame. Politicians anyway always follow their own agenda and not the peoples agenda. Specially america is wasting all its money on war and invading other countries.

 

[sunraiser]

OK, I'm gonna ask you a simple question that I think, is fair and productive. Should we educate people, especially those on government assistance programs, financial programs like Dave ramsey, rich dad poor dad (and others), and make it mandatory for people to attend these classes in order to get assistance, in the hopes that people will learn, absorb, and improve their lives and then get off government assistance?

I mean - I have no issue with that if a person is poor because of accrued debt or something along those lines. Why not.

The idea that the situation is going to be resolved in any meaningful way by teaching people money management is what's misguided, for me. You talk about your experiences earning 24k but remember the minimum wage is 10k less than that per year, and many do not have access to full time hours.

There are two great programs in the UK - one called "rich kids go skint" and the other called "rich kids go homeless". If you ever have any interest it's worth trying to watch - you see the stark change within just a day or so. Every single kid is saying "homeless people are just lazy and I'll work my way off the streets within a few days" and when the reality sets in they turn into much more understanding humans so so quickly.

 

[lampofred]

Sorry, but it's a cop out. I had suicidal level depression as a young adult at times and still got a 4.0 GPA in engineering school and even though I wasn't taught financial things, managed to teach myself during all this hypothyroid.

Yeah cause you probably have way higher serotonin than the typical person. Serotonin causes mental development under a particular kind of stress as Nathan Hatch mentions. Anyway this is just going to go in circles so I'm done lol.

 

[Cirion]

I mean - I have no issue with that if a person is poor because of accrued debt or something along those lines. Why not.

The idea that the situation is going to be resolved in any meaningful way by teaching people money management is what's misguided, for me. You talk about your experiences earning 24k but remember the minimum wage is 10k less than that per year, and many do not have access to full time hours.

There are two great programs in the UK - one called "rich kids go skint" and the other called "rich kids go homeless". If you ever have any interest it's worth trying to watch - you see the stark change within just a day or so. Every single kid is saying "homeless people are just lazy and I'll work my way off the streets within a few days" and when the reality sets in they turn into much more understanding humans so so quickly.

I would be genuinely curious, as to how many people go broke / homeless due to bad choices VS. bad luck VS. how many people are born poor. It would be an interesting statistic.

Yeah even on 14k a yr there are things you can do though. Would it be pleasant? Heck no. You pretty much do need to be homeless at that point probably, or manage to get $150 rent like I mentioned before. You can always reduce expenditures, always! I don't care if you make $5000 a yr or $5M EVERYONE can reduce expenditures. By all means, making a $14k income would SUCK. I'm not at all denying it. But you could be like my friend who lived in his car for a while, and then slowly built up his finances. Yes, you absolutely can build wealth while being homeless. Yes, even on 14k a yr. My friend did it. And now he's doing pretty good, has his own place, his own business etc. & Again, you don't even need to be homeless. A $150/month rent is only $1,800 a year, actually less than 15% of even a paltry 14k income! If you then live without internet, use a tracphone, don't have cable etc... I could absolutely survive on 14k on income with money to spare. Yes sacrificies would be made. No iphone no internet, no Netflix, no TV no cable, no furniture except maybe cheap $10 table and chairs, no washer or dryer (use complex washer/dryer), never buy luxuries only what you NEED, I guarantee I could make a budget that would be under $10,000 letting me save $4,000 a yr even on a 14k income. An interesting challenge. Within a few yrs of investing $4,000, you can start to improve your life situation. Meanwhile be looking for better paying jobs. Since you wouldn't have internet you could spend your time reading books, learning skills, teaching yourself, and then use self taught skills to seek better paying jobs.

I even will admit, I'm sure I have no idea what its like to live on 14k a yr, but that simply doesn't change the fact that wealth can be built on virtually any income.

 

[InChristAlone]

@sugarbabe speaking of big pharma and Amazon, I was amazed when I was able to order CPAP equipment at the same price as I was paying with insurance. The same price, or cheaper for off-brand. The masks are the same price and brand that I got through insurance at the same price. I think it's great what you and your family were able to do.

@thomas00 I have to agree with sugarbabe here. My last job was at a Walmart, which is typically paired with Amazon in these discussions. Know what I did once my health was at risk and HR/management wanted to act like children and say "I don't have to work there"? I saved up 3 months pay, slashed my budget (have since reduced it twice more) and quit. I live comfortably. I don't see how gov't is the answer anyhow: because I don't have a specific health problem, I'm technically able to work more hours and don't qualify for food stamps, etc. My wife and I live in subsidized housing, because thanks to the gov't, about half of the apartments are assisted in some way. A new building was made specifically for those well off, $1000/month rent (about $400 more than average here). Had a waiting list and everything. With that niche filled, there's no reason to blow a ton of money to build new housing.

@Cirion You're spot on! My wife and I will be debt free in 4 years, probably less despite a crappy "first-time-loan". We live far within our means and, if we had to, could move. We have more money saved than anyone else we know. Contrast that with my brother: He pays less than $100 a month on student loans and still can't balance a budget. He had a job with near-guaranteed overtime, but he quit. By now he could have paid off everything, even his massive student loan. Instead, I had to haul him across a couple states to beg our grandparents for money. Only thing I want to do is get into some sort of investment, but I'm not sure stuff like crypto work and how it compares to traditional options.

Yes I love it that in the US you can find products that doctors claim you have to get through them. And we can still buy drugs from overseas. Apparently in Turkey everything medical is cheaper, does anyone know why? What kind of government do they have? Problem is people move away from Turkey to seek opportunity in the US so I assume you just don't make as much in Turkey.

Glad you got out of that kind of job! And yeah my family has always had at least 5k in the bank in case of emergency even when we qualified for assistance. My own Mother has probably never had that much to her name, yet they still buy buy buy. Pay check to pay check (on good RN income). It will be a huge wake up call when she was retires and can't just buy on credit.

 

[Cirion]

Just for fun I made a budget for someone making $14k and still save 3.5k a yr. Very rough but some good guesses of some expected expenses.

I was even generous and increased housing allocation from 150 a month to 250. 3500$ available for investing a yr.

You could probably get many of these expenses even lower.