Bernie Sanders Defends Democratic Socialism

[ShotTrue]

Just for fun I made a budget for someone making $14k and still save 3.5k a yr. Very rough but some good guesses of some expected expenses.

View attachment 13664

I was even generous and increased housing allocation from 150 a month to 250. 3500$ available for investing a yr.

You could probably get many of these expenses even lower.

How do you get $250 rent? a lot of roomates? The minimum for a 1 person here is $600

 

[Cirion]

How do you get $250 rent? a lot of roomates? The minimum for a 1 person here is $600

When I was renting, I went to a pool party, and talked to some dudes from the complex. They said they shared a $300 rental (apparently their studio units were super cheap) so only paid $150 a month each. I am sure finding such a deal is difficult, but doable. Yes, you'd probably need at least one roommate to get to 250 or less.

I'd sooner share a roommate than go homeless. But homeless is an option to bring down the cost to basically 0$ if you are willing to live that way.

Look, being poor sucks, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, so I'm all for helping people in need. But I do wish on everyone that they'd learn how to manage finances, everyone wins - they improve their situation, and they also become less of a tax burden on other tax payers in the process. Everyone wins.

I just dislike the victim mentality. If the worst happened and I lost everything I own, would I complain? You bet I would, I would be whining left and right about how the world is unfair. But in the midst of complaining, I'd bring down my expenditures and quickly liquidate things like the equity in my house, and employ extreme cost cutting measures on housing, transportation and more, and then bring myself back up to speed via heavy savings/investment once again.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't think this has been mentioned but government programs aren't the only place to seek help if you are struggling... there are churches, community centers, non profit organizations, crowd funding, etc. I am just really against government being the only thing people rely on when they need help, it will always be inadequate and they will always abuse their power.

 

[managing]

Answer me this - Do you think 100% of people are poor because of bad luck and evil CEOs and corporations? Can you even acknowledge that at least some people are poor due to bad/stupid choices? I never said 100% people are poor because of stupid choices, but it seems liberals think 100% of people are poor due to bad luck.

Make good choices, reduce chances of being poor. THIS is literally my message in one sentence. It doesn't make probability of being poor 0%, but it surely reduces it dramatically.

I think herein lies the caricatures that are repeatedly spouted. Somehow, even though I have said probably 5 times already in this thread, that I don't believe 100% of people are poor due to bad choices, that this is being falsely portrayed. But I've yet to see any liberal in this thread deny that at least SOME people are poor due to bad choices.

Are we trying to absolve people of responsibility? A safety net shouldn't be abused by people making poor choices. A safety net should be used by people with BAD LUCK. see the difference? I have 1000x more sympathy for the single parent who lost everything in a freak earthquake or tornado, than someone who decided to buy a $2M house with a 400k income and go broke this way.

Speaking of caricatures, that is exactly what I am challenging:

The liberal philosophy is - woe is me, there is nothing I can do, give me free money because I can't make money, let's smash the system, complain about rich people, and riot in ferguson etc meanwhile being forever poor because complaining is easy. By definitions liberals are negative, defeatist, depressed people.

The conservative philosophy is - look at all the opportunities - sure the environment may not be ideal, but I can work with what I have to improve my station in life, smashing the system is not realistic, so let me game the system that already exists. Conservatives are positive, opportunistic, pick-yourself-up after defeat kind of people.

 

[Cirion]

I look at a 14k income and I see a challenge, an opportunity, as I showed its more than possible to not only survive on 14k income but save money on top of that.

A poor mindset person looks at a 14k income and just sees no hope and complains, meanwhile making no efforts to improve the situation (btw plenty of trucking companies for example will pay 50k+ right out of the gate, and even pay for your training. There are decent paying jobs out there, literally there's no reason to be stuck at a 14k income for more than a few months or so).

See the difference?

While some are moaning that it can't be done, other people are busy doing what "can't be done" and getting it done.

I talked to some dude on the plane one time flying from home at Christmas. He said he worked a job in Alaska that required only a few months of training and paid upwards of $250,000 a year. Almost anyone could do it, but no one wants to live in Alaska and do the job there because its so freaking cold there. There's always work to do, high paying work at that, just have to go outside your comfort zone sometimes. I actually half considered switching jobs, but I admit, I kinda don't wanna live there lol. But if I was broke and desperate? Absolutely in a heartbeat.

Now, if you're physically disabled, sick, or otherwise can't work for whatever reason, that's different and I have absolutely zero gripes with someone like this taking full advantage of safety nets. But there's ample work available. A lot of these jobs are RIPE for the picking and you could probably interview this Friday and begin work literally next Monday.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion @sugarbabe @Beefcake are you three subscribed to rays newsletter? Or do you just subsist on his hand outs?

 

[LuMonty]

Yes I love it that in the US you can find products that doctors claim you have to get through them. And we can still buy drugs from overseas. Apparently in Turkey everything medical is cheaper, does anyone know why? What kind of government do they have? Problem is people move away from Turkey to seek opportunity in the US so I assume you just don't make as much in Turkey.

Glad you got out of that kind of job! And yeah my family has always had at least 5k in the bank in case of emergency even when we qualified for assistance. My own Mother has probably never had that much to her name, yet they still buy buy buy. Pay check to pay check (on good RN income). It will be a huge wake up call when she was retires and can't just buy on credit.

Unfortunately my folks are largely the same. One of the reasons I had to get good with money so quickly is that every time they said they'd be able to help, suddenly they wouldn't be able to do so. I'm glad I stopped living as if I was entitled to that help and saw their mistakes.

Luckily we can get the stuff overseas. I'm finally seeing results with a skin problem, turns out it's an infection (seems to be systemic at this point too). Doctors said fungus and one said "it doesn't look like anything." By being able to order what I need, I'm closing in on curing sleep apnea. Without these options, I'd still be very sick. And a lot less knowledgeable actually. For example, I never knew Vit. A reacts with skin to make an anti-bacterial compound. I suppose I'm rambling a bit at this point.

As for Turkey, I'd assume it has to do with the leadership there. On the other hand, I can't be sure I can trust anything geopolitical that I read these days.

 

[ilikecats]

“The economic system is set up to consume people’s energy and time, exactly so that we won’t be able to work on the really useful things.” - Ray Peat

Interesting food for thought and relevant to this thread.

"The wars for empire are now the leading business of government, and if the economic nationalists can stop them that will be a big step in the right direction." - Ray Peat

bet you didn't see that coming lol more interesting food for thought

"The reason I talk more about biology than politics is that the various radical movements generally have inflexibilities that keep them apart." - Ray Peat

 

[thomas00]

If the workers got to choose which tasks they'd like to do and which they didn't no company would be successful would it?

the question is why should workers care about company success



It's a management/shareholder concern that revolves around profit that they don't share.

Managers don't dictate a worker do something outside of the job duties they signed up to get paid for.

that happens all the time too, actually

 

[thomas00]

@thomas00 I have to agree with sugarbabe here. My last job was at a Walmart, which is typically paired with Amazon in these discussions. Know what I did once my health was at risk and HR/management wanted to act like children and say "I don't have to work there"? I saved up 3 months pay, slashed my budget (have since reduced it twice more) and quit. I live comfortably. I don't see how gov't is the answer anyhow: because I don't have a specific health problem, I'm technically able to work more hours and don't qualify for food stamps, etc. My wife and I live in subsidized housing, because thanks to the gov't, about half of the apartments are assisted in some way. A new building was made specifically for those well off, $1000/month rent (about $400 more than average here). Had a waiting list and everything. With that niche filled, there's no reason to blow a ton of money to build new housing.

I still haven't seen a good argument advanced as to why a billionaire- in this particular case the second richest man in the world- should be permitted to pay his employees, in some cases, not even enough to live on. So little in fact that in many cases the state has to intervene and give them food stamps: a taxpayer subsidy for an obscenely wealthy individual.


The argument that it's low skilled work is an argument in favor of more money, not less. Drudgery should be compensated. It's also a total red herring. Labour keeps the whole thing ticking over. What does it matter if it's highly skilled or not?


How pathologically entitled have people become that they not only demand whatever plastic piece of ***t they are buying from crapazon "within the hour!" but they also expect their fellow citizens working there for the gazillionaire owner to do so for next to nothing.



There's a nice snapshot of the public!

 

[yerrag]

I still haven't seen a good argument advanced as to why a billionaire- in this particular case the second richest man in the world- should be permitted to pay his employees, in some cases, not even enough to live on. So little in fact that in many cases the state has to intervene and give them food stamps: a taxpayer subsidy for an obscenely wealthy individual.

You have to ask yourself why Amazon is a public corporation and why public corporations exist. It is to build wealth through the use of the capital markets. When Amazon's profits keep growing, its stock price keeps going up. Amazon won't do anything that does not maximize the value to the stockholders. Its responsibility foremost is to the stockholders. Bezos should have hired more people, but because of his use of robots, he doesn't need to. Is it out of charity that he doesn't use more robots? No. But if the cost of labor were to increase, by law or by choice, would it make it more feasible for Bezos to put more robots into his warehouses, to replace the much more costly workers? But why would Bezos want to disadvantage himself and his stockholders by paying more than the market? Does he control the wages that his competitors pay? Should he sit pretty and be a philanthropist while he has the edge over his competition, and then allow them to catch up with him? Will WalMart be as generous because Bezos has become more generous?

The argument that it's low skilled work is an argument in favor of more money, not less. Drudgery should be compensated. It's also a total red herring. Labour keeps the whole thing ticking over. What does it matter if it's highly skilled or not?

What are you talking about? With your reasoning, nobody needs to do anything to gain skills. MAGA!

How pathologically entitled have people become that they not only demand whatever plastic piece of ***t they are buying from crapazon "within the hour!" but they also expect their fellow citizens working there for the gazillionaire owner to do so for next to nothing.

Would it make a difference if it wasn't a gazillionaire owner the fellow citizens were working for but the government?

Yes, the government that pay huges salaries to cops and firemen and civil servants and gave them pensions to live like royalty in their retirement years, assuming that the pensions are funded, which they aren't?

Remember this: A good enterprise is one that will stay profitable for a long time. It not only has responsibility to stockholders, but to its employees as well. If it thinks like you, it will not last long. It will have wasted its stockholders' faith and resources, and let down its employees and their families. A company you run will not have any stability. It will leave its owners and employees stranded economically, with a very uncertain future.

You have never run a company. At best you teach out of a school run by useless administrators put in place by equally useless politicians.

 

[thomas00]

What are you talking about? With your reasoning, nobody needs to do anything to gain skills. MAGA!

I'm talking about something that is obviously alien to you: being motivated by something other than money.


You've never met any doctors who got into it for the cash? I wish I hadn't.

Remember this: A good enterprise is one that will stay profitable for a long time. It not only has responsibility to stockholders, but to its employees as well. If it thinks like you, it will not last long. It will have wasted its stockholders' faith and resources, and let down its employees and their families. A company you run will not have any stability. It will leave its owners and employees stranded economically, with a very uncertain future.

god you're so boring

 

[yerrag]

god you're so boring

boring makes so much sense when you are talking to someone who doesn't understand reality. keep watching your soap opera since you got all the time in the world

 

[yerrag]

Its interesting that there is one thing we seem to agree on: That, when it works properly, a moderate taxation that creates infrastructure, healthcare, education, safety, and opportunity is a good thing.

I also think we seem to agree that the US (and Phillipines, yes @yerrag ?) are failing at that in significant ways.

We might also agree that western Europe is succeeding at it more or less (not to say that its perfect). Perhaps Sweden is an exception. I am not going to tell @Beefcake that he is wrong when he lives there and I've never even visited. But I do think its safe to say that there are considerable differences of opinion among others in the know on that.

Agreed.

But I hope that lightning strikes and with it the landscape brings a ray of hope. I used to think the developing countries will progress to a point where government loses its corrupt stain by at the very least learning from the civic foundations set by developed nations. But those hopes were dashed as I see more of the case of developed nations emulating corrupt developing nations. Perhaps it's because of WikiLeaks and forced transparency that we're seeing that developed nations are perhaps just as stained.

Now if I were to ask myself which country I would go and live if I all were open to accepting me I find it difficult to find a country steeped in the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I find excessive taxation to be the norm, and I'm dismayed that the trend is towards bigger government, and along with this more corruption. It may be that we should resign ourselves to that fact, and just find a way to coexist with government in whatever the shape we happen to find ourselves in. As much as we want to make it better, the more we try the more we are frustrated as we are weighed down by mediocrity all around us. The rest of us is about enjoying what we can out of our existence, and what comes to pass after we're gone is not our problem. Just do what we can, but don't overdo it. Help your neighbor and think small. No grand illusions. Just be at peace. As with the Desiderata.

 

[LuMonty]

should be permitted

I think this explains most or all of your posts on this forum, even non-political ones. To speak in terms of allowance is a the viewpoint of a dictator. Price and wage fixing destroy competition. As the "fight for $15" continues, at least here in the States, more people end up with less benefits and/or hours. There are real-world examples of how this goes.

I hear Venezuela is lovely this time of year.

 

[sunraiser]

I think this explains most or all of your posts on this forum, even non-political ones. To speak in terms of allowance is a the viewpoint of a dictator. Price and wage fixing destroy competition. As the "fight for $15" continues, at least here in the States, more people end up with less benefits and/or hours. There are real-world examples of how this goes.

I hear Venezuela is lovely this time of year.

Probably best to use Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Netherlands as your "real-world" examples. That is, countries that have less wealth than the USA but far higher effective minimum wage than $15/h either via min wage laws or collective bargaining agreements.

I feel really compelled to write about the situation in Venezuela to you but I have no idea if it's worth the effort. Venezuela came from plutocracy before Chavez - it literally took the country away from corrupt and unregulated capitalism and massively elevated poor people and living standards. It has rather a specific and interesting social and political situation that has emerged. It's just ironic that you're using it as an argument for the free market when the corruption of the free market is the reason Chavez got into power to overthrow the oligarchy in the first place.

There are absolutely things going wrong in the country at current.

If you have any interest in learning about it as opposed to throwing out bland and empty media one liners that are designed to drum up support for US political and probably military intervention (largest natural oil reserves in the world, remember - rather ironic that the US started taking an interest when Venezuela nationalised their oil industry) then I'm happy to write it.

If it's going to fall of completely deaf and indoctrinated ears then I probably won't bother :)

As an aside, see We froze the salaries of 20 executives – and it improved the lives of 500 employees | John Driscoll

 

[Cirion]

I feel really compelled to write about the situation in Venezuela to you but I have no idea if it's worth the effort. Venezuela came from plutocracy before Chavez - it literally took the country away from corrupt and unregulated capitalism and massively elevated poor people and living standards.

Well, feel free to enlighten my ignorance then, why is Venezuela one of the worst countries to live in currently then if their standards were "massively elevated"?

Venezuela did do one thing right - and that's make everyone equal. Equally poor, that is. Liberals parade the idea of equality. Well, they're not wrong. Equally poor and miserable =P

Look I hate to break it to people but it is literally impossible to make a government that will be fair to everyone. It's just how it is. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. A government always becomes bloated and corrupt. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but it's just a matter of time. All it takes is one or two corrupt leaders and you start down this path. All system that have been tried or will ever be tried simply will not work long term. Knowing this fact, I prefer governments to encroach on my freedom and money the least amount possible. I trust myself more than any government, so get out my way and let me do what I want and don't take my money.

A star trek esque society is always the utopian dream that people want, and I'd actually be the first in line for something like that. A society where you only work if you want, and no one has to work because replicators can make food, structures, everything necessary for life. But, that's dreaming. It'll never happen. Sorry. There's utopian dreaming, and then there's reality. The reality is there has never been and never will be a free lunch. "Let him who does not work, not eat". Maybe in 500-1,000 more years when 3d printers have advanced to replicator level status, but even then, you still need people to maintain and make printers, operate them, etc. Maybe in 500 years there will only be one job - Printer operator. Lol. Well that and monitoring all the other robots, and automated machines. There will no longer be any manual labor, but plenty of robots to maintain.

 

[LUH 3417]

I wasn't even talking to you, so I don't get why you feel attacked. And yeah, schools and universities are for suckers. All those studies showing the long-term economic benefits of a university degree are fake news. And don't get me started on all those poor people with money problems. It's all their own fault because they can't manage their expenditures. Suckers! They could at least get an economically promising husband.

Did you miss the part where they said you had to go to school to have a high IQ. Marry up!

 

[InChristAlone]

Did you miss the part where they said you had to go to school to have a high IQ. Marry up!

My husband went to Westmont for religious studies. Despite the cost he would do it all over again, he grew a lot. He would not be in the position he is now if it were not for that experience. Plus most managerial positions require at least a bachelors degree. I don't support going to those crazy universities where all people do is get drunk at their frat parties and indoctrinated into the new world order.

 

[LuMonty]

Probably best to use Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Netherlands as your "real-world" examples. That is, countries that have less wealth than the USA but far higher effective minimum wage than $15/h either via min wage laws or collective bargaining agreements.

I feel really compelled to write about the situation in Venezuela to you but I have no idea if it's worth the effort. Venezuela came from plutocracy before Chavez - it literally took the country away from corrupt and unregulated capitalism and massively elevated poor people and living standards. It has rather a specific and interesting social and political situation that has emerged. It's just ironic that you're using it as an argument for the free market when the corruption of the free market is the reason Chavez got into power to overthrow the oligarchy in the first place.

There are absolutely things going wrong in the country at current.

If you have any interest in learning about it as opposed to throwing out bland and empty media one liners that are designed to drum up support for US political and probably military intervention (largest natural oil reserves in the world, remember - rather ironic that the US started taking an interest when Venezuela nationalised their oil industry) then I'm happy to write it.

If it's going to fall of completely deaf and indoctrinated ears then I probably won't bother :)

As an aside, see We froze the salaries of 20 executives – and it improved the lives of 500 employees | John Driscoll

Thomas00's comment here was French Revolution style of crap. I'd be interested to think what his response would be to gov't control if someone with opposing views was in control.

I can see it now: I've just become Emperor in a freakish turn of events and I tell Thomas00, "20% of your net* income is going to be taken by force and given to poor people. It's fun because arbitrary lines can always be used to define 'poor.' I'm glad you gave me this idea, seeing as you're rich compared to those living in cardboard boxes." That's flippant too, but illustrates my point better. Not so fun when you're not #The1% getting fleeced. Also not fun when others play Dictator either.

*I'm Emperor in this little story, so to push the point harder he has to pay net instead of being taxed on gross income. Just to further show that great amounts of power aren't suddenly good because the outcome is good. Or does he hate poor people? Now that was tongue in cheek and doesn't require a giant post.

It doesn't look like you know how to make an argument. You don't even know what my geopolitical stance is. Perhaps making the assumptions you did has helped your self-esteem?

Is Venezuela formerly a plutocracy or an oligarchy? Was it corruption in general, or specifically capitalism? Or the free market? Where did I say nothing was wrong in the USA? Also, look up irony and add the correct example in your reply. Please list the "media one liners" I used.

Also, post in this topic so everyone can see this enlightening write-up you can do about Venezuela. Dispense with the assumptions and attacks; you aren't good at them. If you have information of the magnitude that you're implying, it would simply be fantastic. It sounds like I would have to consider my views (the real ones, not your personal fantasy). Please respond promptly and cite your sources