Bernie Sanders Defends Democratic Socialism

[yerrag]

Ahh, from rags to riches. If one guy made it, surely everyone can - Good, you are beginning to see the similarity between those two cases. Maybe you can identify common factors contributing to the problem as a next step. Also, why don't Western/Northern European countries have those same problems?

Let me repeat what you missed from what I posted earlier, as Cirion got the gist of it but somehow you didn't - the US system of government sucks because the people cannot make its government better. No matter how much taxes you take, it won't help because it's just going to be wasted. It's always going to be a case of never enough taxes. This is what it's come to in the US. The politicians baby and spoil, the poor get more babied and the more they rely on the safety net. The more people rely on the safety net, the more taxing it is on the system. It is a vicious cycle. But it starts with the politicians, who are elected by an electorate easily fooled by empty promises. Just not gonna work in the good ol' US of A. You have the idealism of a freshman in college.

With a good system in place, taxes don't have to be so high. And the people who really need the help, can get the help as the funds are not crowded out by people who don't really need the help.

 

[InChristAlone]

Oh good, but what happens to the people who don't have nice parents that have 100k+ on the side to pay of their childrens immense loans, or those moms that didn't manage to score a highly intelligent husband that will earn enought to support their families?

Poverty sucks I realize this. It can be extremely hard for minorities to rise above that. But they do get a lot of help from the government. In fact I think it's too much of a crutch for them, they don't rise above even with the help they are receiving. I have the most sympathy for single Moms.

Also about my family... my husband comes from a line of hard working people. His Grandpa worked two jobs even though he didn't have to to support his family. And they still live way below their means even though they have a boat load of money from investments and retirement from Kellogg's- one of the few union jobs left. My father-in-law also worked for Kellogg's without any college degree, he also invested and they have a very nice nest egg. He worked 7 days a week to get the overtime money. So no... no rich people in my family. Just hard working people who are wise with their money.

 

[InChristAlone]

Here I'll help you out man. Here's a definition of an ASSET:

ASSET - Something that puts money in your pocket every month.
Examples of assets: A business that is profitable, netting you money. A rental property that puts money in your pocket from the tenants every month. An investment account that is earning you interest. ETC.

Does a student loan do that? Nope. So it meets the definition of LIABILITY:

LIABILITY - Something that takes money out of your pocket every month.
Examples: Student loans, mortgages, car loans, credit card debt.

Sure, a student loan might help you get a high paying job, but it can take up to 10-20 years to break even, after which point you could have made a LOT more money from investments, rental properties, businesses etc.

I actually only went to grad school because I managed to get full scholarship (due to my merit in undergrad school). And I had already told myself, that I wouldn't even go to grad school if I had to pay money, an undergrad degree is more than enough to get a degree usually, even in most technical fields. And for undergrad, I admit my parents did help me out, but even if I had to pay, it wouldn't have been that bad as I went to local university which was no more than 3-5k a semester. And I didn't even do that until I had gotten 2 years out of the way at a community college which was even cheaper than that.

A house is ALSO not an asset, unless you use it as a rental property, because it doesn't put $ in your pocket, it takes it away on a monthly basis. This is another common mistake that people make. Houses are also a liability.

Houses are only truly useful once you've either paid it off in full, or you decide to rent out some or all of it to tenants. I made sure to buy a house I will have paid off in just 8 more years at which point I can live for free, even without tenants. True you are building up equity, but building up equity is not the same as an asset. And equity is something you can't really easily access anyway, not without selling the house, so it's money that doesn't help you achieve financial freedom.

Yeah houses can certainly be a liability, but the only reason we have so much money in the bank right now is because we sold a house and live a little below our means, plus the tax refund helped!

 

[Cirion]

Yeah houses can certainly be a liability, but the only reason we have so much money in the bank right now is because we sold a house and live a little below our means, plus the tax refund helped!

All houses are liabilities unless it is paid off or used for rental. That said, yes, if you get a sufficiently cheap house well within your mains, they can have their advantages.

I would say the main problem with houses is that people are notorious for buying houses well above their means. Just to give you an idea, on Zillow if I put my income in it says I can afford like a 350k house. I have a 132k house, almost a third of that. If I had bought the 350k house, virtually all of my income would be tied up in mortgage payments, making it impossible to invest anything, and maybe make it even hard to stay afloat on payments at that, risking going bankrupt, all problems I did not want when I bought my first house. Your typical american is very likely to get a house at or very close to the amount that Zillow says you can afford, so its no wonder so many people are foreclosing and going bankrupt.

I have a good friend who lives in another state and she recently bought a 300+k house. I told her not to do it for these reasons but sadly she didn't listen to me... Now she is gonna be stuck with a mortgage for the rest of her career, probably.

 

[nomoreketones]

Not an American, but very impressed with Tulsi Gobard. She seems truely principled, not affraid to stand up to globalist BS even on the denocratic side and has a growing popular support relying solely on private donors.

I am an American and I love Tulsi Gabbard. She is not afraid to do what she feels is right regardless of the political consequences. She is not afraid to appear on conservative platforms even though she is a democrat. Most politicians these days on both sides are driven by anger and hate but in every interview she does she does not become angry or hateful no matter what they ask her or how they treat her.

By the way, Andrew Yang is also not afraid to appear on conservative platforms and he also is not hateful at all so people who like Tulsi Gabbard will probably like Andrew Yang too.

Unfortunately she is too independent minded for the establishment to back her:
Howard Dean to CNN: All Dem candidates qualified to be president except Tulsi Gabbard

Personally I will only vote for Tulsi Gabbard or Andrew Yang. If any of the other democrats win I'm not going to vote at all or maybe I'll vote 3rd party. I refuse to contribute to the hate being thrown back and forth between the Democrats and Republicans.

 

[InChristAlone]

All houses are liabilities unless it is paid off or used for rental. That said, yes, if you get a sufficiently cheap house well within your mains, they can have their advantages.

I would say the main problem with houses is that people are notorious for buying houses well above their means. Just to give you an idea, on Zillow if I put my income in it says I can afford like a 350k house. I have a 132k house, almost a third of that. If I had bought the 350k house, virtually all of my income would be tied up in mortgage payments, making it impossible to invest anything, and maybe make it even hard to stay afloat on payments at that, risking going bankrupt, all problems I did not want when I bought my first house. Your typical american is very likely to get a house at or very close to the amount that Zillow says you can afford, so its no wonder so many people are foreclosing and going bankrupt.

I have a good friend who lives in another state and she recently bought a 300+k house. I told her not to do it for these reasons but sadly she didn't listen to me... Now she is gonna be stuck with a mortgage for the rest of her career, probably.

Yes people buying above their means is what will cause another housing crisis. We will never buy a house that puts us pay check to pay check.

 

[lampofred]

Ray Peat for President 2020...

 

[yerrag]

Ray Peat for President 2020...

He should not be pro-GMO.
He should drop the persecution of Assange.
He should withdraw our troops from Syria, and start closing the military bases all over the world.
He should dare risk to be assassinated by the deep state for curtailing its warmongering activities.
He should act as he promised in his campaign and not act like he's afraid to make peace and ratchet down tension with Russia.

He had excuses not to be bold pre-Mueller report. Now, he has no excuses.

Continue with the border wall efforts. Stem the flow of illegal border crossers. And stop creating wars that make illegal immigrants leave their country for a better life.
Continue to attack the news media cartel for being fake news. Everyone knows this isn't about wearing a tinfoil hat.U
Continue to push for US manufacturing resurgence by not backing down on trade demands, particularly on protection of intellectual property rights as well as tariff parity.
Be more active in ensuring free speech is not curtailed in social media platforms.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Keep the environmental regulations that do make sense.

Except for Tulsi Gabbard, all the other Democrats are subservient to the Deep State. Bernie Sanders may not be subservient, but his pushing of MMT to fund his grand societal change notions - puffery. Just adding ballast to a plane loaded with dead weight.

 

[Beefcake]

So 30%+ tax on 84k income is not high? Actually I understand taxes VERY well, and I'm very good with numbers overall (Grad student in engineering), I've made very detailed spreadsheets, I know precisely how taxes work, I've run my numbers, and yes I pay over 30% in taxes off the bat even though I make less than 100k a yr. When you add it all up like social security, income tax, other tax related removals from your income, yes it adds up quickly. You're right, the 30% number doesn't take effect until 84k and below that is the lower bracket. But you fail to take into account things like social security. And if you don't think 30% is a high amount of tax for middle class, well then I have nothing more to say because clearly your definition of high taxes and mine differ dramatically.

Clearly you missed the point I said that california living expenses are terrible. You can easily pay $500-1000k for the same house I own in st. louis that is only around 150k. Therefore, to make an equivalent amount in CA you'd need at least 4x the income. This is some very rough math I admit, but you get my point, hopefully. That same 63k in st. louis would have like 3-4x the buying power, so yes, 63k is poverty in CA (most areas at least).

On 84k USD in sweden you the payer would pay 30% and the person hiring you pay 30% aswell. This also makes it unattractive for companies to hire anyone and give a high sallary. 84k USD per year is a huge sallary like @Kartoffel said. And in Sweden you would be considered rich/upper class on that. Like 75% in sweden would be between 25000-35000 USD per year. Besides having taxes like that stops a lot of people from even trying to make more money or to make a carrer. Dont know. Dont seem very healthy to me. I know a lot of swedish people whom moved to america and they all both tell me and seem to be living a much better life. But I can totally understand and relate to the fact that health care and school is not free is a big downside to the american system. At least there could be some safety measures installed. Anyhow our health care is overflooded and not that great at the moment and there’s long ques which at least in america if you can afford it you can pay. In sweden you have to wait. Its like if you get cancer in sweden the wait time in que could be up to 200 days. Still considering the amount of money all swedish people pay together our health care isnt that good. Schools are not that good. Another thing is basically that education doesnt really matter anymore in sweden if you get hired or not. An example @Cirion could had studied to become an engineer in sweden but because everyone here goes to school and have an education he doesnt have any advantage once hes done with his studies. Its very hard for people to get jobs even though they studied a masters degree. Quite opposite companies dont want to hire someone with a masters because they are expected to pay them more for someone whos just as inexperienced in work life as others. So in all its not worth to study, its not worth it to work harder or work over time. Better to just chill relax and work minimum so you can live. Good when all rich people stops working aswell and start getting paid a normal sallary. Then they would have to compensate and increase taxes for normal paying jobs. @Cirion you said remove taxes from everyone under 2 milions in income. you realize how that sounds? So people who make that money are just gonna work as slaves while the rest of society piggy back on them. Disqusting. Of course everyone should pay. Why does it have to be unequall and unfair? Just coz you studied more and got a better paying job should you be punished for that? Why are these people who make a lot of money so evil in so many peoples eyes. Most people would not share that money with others anyway if they had the same job or opportunity.

 

[Beefcake]

Oh good, but what happens to the people who don't have nice parents that have 100k+ on the side to pay of their childrens immense loans, or those moms that didn't manage to score a highly intelligent husband that will earn enought to support their families?

How the fuc k do you think the rich people earned their money in the first place. Either them, their parents or their grandparents worked their **** of at some point. And i know many people who started with nothing and became something. All it takes like @Cirion said is a bit of creativity and free thinking. School makes you stupid but to some degree its necessary. Yeah everyone wants to live florida beach and not in the ***t. I don’t think if you succed in life you should be taxed more. Instead of spending money to put people on wellfare manage the money and help the unfortunate/poor people to get jobs. Just giving them free money is not gonna do anything. And in both america and sweden poor people can excell and get rich. Start by getting a regular job and learn to not waste it all. Manage it save and invest. At the same time be loyal, work hard but smart and you will likely get more resonsibilty at your job. Once you have more responsibilty and you showed them your value and that its hard for them to replace you then use that as leverage and ask for a promotion. I know a lot of people who do this instead of even going to the free school in sweden and by the time the rest finished their masters degree these people have high position jobs with much better pay than these well educated kids will get.

 

[Beefcake]

Here I'll help you out man. Here's a definition of an ASSET:

ASSET - Something that puts money in your pocket every month.
Examples of assets: A business that is profitable, netting you money. A rental property that puts money in your pocket from the tenants every month. An investment account that is earning you interest. ETC.

Does a student loan do that? Nope. So it meets the definition of LIABILITY:

LIABILITY - Something that takes money out of your pocket every month.
Examples: Student loans, mortgages, car loans, credit card debt.

Sure, a student loan might help you get a high paying job, but it can take up to 10-20 years to break even, after which point you could have made a LOT more money from investments, rental properties, businesses etc.

I actually only went to grad school because I managed to get full scholarship (due to my merit in undergrad school). And I had already told myself, that I wouldn't even go to grad school if I had to pay money, an undergrad degree is more than enough to get a degree usually, even in most technical fields. And for undergrad, I admit my parents did help me out, but even if I had to pay, it wouldn't have been that bad as I went to local university which was no more than 3-5k a semester. And I didn't even do that until I had gotten 2 years out of the way at a community college which was even cheaper than that.

A house is ALSO not an asset, unless you use it as a rental property, because it doesn't put $ in your pocket, it takes it away on a monthly basis. This is another common mistake that people make. Houses are also a liability.

Houses are only truly useful once you've either paid it off in full, or you decide to rent out some or all of it to tenants. I made sure to buy a house I will have paid off in just 8 more years at which point I can live for free, even without tenants. True you are building up equity, but building up equity is not the same as an asset. And equity is something you can't really easily access anyway, not without selling the house, so it's money that doesn't help you achieve financial freedom.

Once you own a house you can make quite good money on it. My parents has made most of their money just buying and selling houses. Buy something for 500 000-100 000 dollars invest another 50 000 - 100 000 usd to renovate it and then sell it for 800 000- 130 000 usd. Sounds like a lot of work and it can be but you can make a lot of money. Specially depending on location. The housing market is always growing slowly and people will always need somewhere to live.

 

[sunraiser]

How the fuc k do you think the rich people earned their money in the first place. Either them, their parents or their grandparents worked their **** of at some point. And i know many people who started with nothing and became something. All it takes like @Cirion said is a bit of creativity and free thinking. School makes you stupid but to some degree its necessary. Yeah everyone wants to live florida beach and not in the ***t. I don’t think if you succed in life you should be taxed more. Instead of spending money to put people on wellfare manage the money and help the unfortunate/poor people to get jobs. Just giving them free money is not gonna do anything. And in both america and sweden poor people can excell and get rich. Start by getting a regular job and learn to not waste it all. Manage it save and invest. At the same time be loyal, work hard but smart and you will likely get more resonsibilty at your job. Once you have more responsibilty and you showed them your value and that its hard for them to replace you then use that as leverage and ask for a promotion. I know a lot of people who do this instead of even going to the free school in sweden and by the time the rest finished their masters degree these people have high position jobs with much better pay than these well educated kids will get.

You equating taxation as just "giving the poor people free money" isn't based in reality. We've literally discussed earlier in the thread what taxation can be used for from an infrastructure perspective - it's hardly rocket science.

The notion you and Cirion have (I know we've discussed it before, Cirion) of poor people simply being lazy and not managing their money properly is a product of being fattened by your privilege - you're completely unaware of the context and hardship people face because you've never been remotely near it. It makes me sick to my stomach knowing humans can become like this, but even more so because I know I would've been exactly the same as you if certain perspective giving life events didn't happen.

I don't blame you but it still scares me how easily people buy into the plutocrat rhetoric of "rich people worked hard, poor people didn't work hard enough" as soon as they have a remote idea that the system is working for them in some way. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you understand the incomparable value in having social infrastructure and civilised society. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you see that there's a huge amount of fortunate and personal value YOU have received from taxation and regulation and civilised society but you haven't been pushed enough to understand nuance and complexity beyond face value stories you read about those born into worse situatons than you.

It's natural, as a middle class person, to perceive taxation as simply a hindrance that serves no benefit to you beyond taking away your precious money. The fact you state you need 5million to be comfortable should hopefully prompt you to do some serious self reflection about your personal standards and insulation.

It's like you CANNOT see past the idea that a persons wealth or salary equates their innate value to society - it's patently and obviously FALSE. You've bought into the exact bullshittery that makes people drones and subservient to those that are trying to dictate law for their own benefit. Sycophantic views towards those that horde wealth and property - yep, check.

Holding onto a shallow sense of self esteem based on your own idea of self exceptionalism - the idea that you're working really hard and those other guys are just lazy and poor. The idea that if they just did this they'd be totally fine - it demonstrates complete ignorance about the nuance and challenges people face. The directions their energy must go towards and the stresses and imprisonment in their birth situation you haven't ever known.

If you want to find meaning then GO AND DO SOMETHING WORTHWHILE. Go and experience how other people are living. If you simply can't understand nuance in your current situation then go and teach in South America and see how the minimal state and unfettered capitalism operates - you do not need understanding of complexity once you see that kind of poverty imprisonment. Go and feel what it is to actually be human and not a heartless drone - I promise you will come back a different person.

You have been provided with so much by the state and public infrastructure if you grew up in Sweden and yet you've hook, line and sinker bought into the right wing media idea of self aggrandisment at the cost of putting others down so as to prop up non existent self esteem.

You are not alone in your predicament - it's natural. I really really think the utter chasm in understanding between classes in society needs to be bridged by national service of some kind (not military but police, fire, ambulance etc etc).

I'm someone that has lived in both worlds and I know how you feel but it's misguided. Half of the problems we see in society today are because those in the top jobs aren't there on merit - we have people that aren't capable of free thinking that are shoe-horned into positions as judges and lawyers and doctors and politicians (go look up the born-into wealth percentage of people in those positions) that perpetuate this ridiculous cycle.

It's not bad to have a comfortable upbringing - it's fantastic. It only becomes insidious when it's so insulated, alongside being encouraged by billionaire media barons with a strong agenda, that it turns into self aggrandisement and hatred of those worse off. Social cohesion is the thing that's missing in society - a collective and perspective giving experience that everyone must go through.

Just look at the life expectancy of countries with proper regulation and higher taxation rates, despite having far less wealth than the USA.

You are still a child. That won't change until you get out of the bubble you live in. I promise it'll be the most rewarding thing you could ever do.

 

[sunraiser]

We can agree on the merits of taxation, and the benefits of it is that is a pooling of resources at a level that can have good societal impact. As long as these resources are well allocated, with the government as a responsible steward, the people will benefit from it in terms of enabling a better quality of life. I think though that there are some countries better suited to a tax-heavy state and some that are demonstrably poor at it. So, it's not one-size-fits-all. If it works in Sweden, it's not because high taxation is the key reason. It's because the government there is a good steward of resources. And it's that way because the level of decency and civic awareness in the population there keeps dirty politicians from making the government a gold mine for themselves. That Sweden is prosperous can't necessarily be the result of high taxation, but is definitely a matter of good stewardship. This comes down to the character of the people, as it translates to good governing systems set in place, and as it is is implemented on the local level all to way to the state level.

As an aside, do you remember Olaf Palme? The prime mister of Sweden a few decades back. He was shot to death walking in the city - no bodyguards. Where else in the world do you have a prime minister who feels safe walking by himself? I remember this because when I read the news, I thought it was weird.

I say this because my country, the Philippines is so corrupt. Politicians are either rich elites that have their own sinecures of entitlement, or elite wannabes from the lower or middle class. Either way, they're pretty lousy stewards. The elites are useful idiots who only know how to preserve the status quo of corruption (their motto is if it ain't broke, don't fix it) and the wannabes simply are more hungry to steal public money to become part of the elite. And the people, they don't need to vote based on issues, but on popularity. Movie stars and sports figures are a sure bet. From this milieu, you get the leadership. You get to see higher taxes, but you also get to see a lot of this increased revenue wasted on corrupt deals.

In a country like ours, less taxation would be better. At the very least, the less resources going into taxes, the less resources wasted. The sure result of heavy taxation would be capital misallocation. The misallocation will not improve lives as it won't create more means for good livelihoods. Taxation saps businesses, and people don't get the benefits. The benefits go to politicians. With heavy taxation, government gets bigger also as the higher taxes can support the bloat. And politicians like to give jobs in government, as it makes them powerful. As government gets bigger, it becomes the business in itself. Instead of starting a business, one would find being a politician a better avenue for one's future.

All this comes down to is: Let Sweden have its system. Let my country have its system. Let's not copy Sweden because we are not Sweden. Do just as a dog would - don't eat cat food.

I'm glad we agree on potential merits. I find it rare to see opponents of state intervention ever acknowledge the massive good it has done in the world.

I think there are definitely countries in a situation where corruption is completely constitutionalised, but it does beg the question how one resolves it. Generally those that want to allow minimal government are proponents of wealth hording and private sector education which essentially keeps the status quo. How does a country educate its society into understanding the collective benefits of social consciousness if masses of people can't afford education? It's difficult to see how transitions can occur from the state of places like the Philippines like you mention.

It also brings the question of having a 2 party system into play once again. For example, if a Conservative government gets into power in my country (as they are now) then I still have to pay taxes while knowing the current government doesn't believe in public services and infrastructure. Knowing they don't believe in public healthcare and education, knowing they're taking money and future boardroom jobs from lobbyists that are desperate to get their hands on public sector assests. Knowing they're accepting money and support from media entities that purposely aim to keep the public disenfranchised and uneducated so they can horde more wealth and deregulate further. So public misallocation of funds is definitely a hazard everywhere.

I think you'd be surprised about the number of high profile politicians in Europe that bicycle or walk to work without an entourage - it's quite common.

My stance is that the more you provide public infrastructure to allow people avenues out of their situation, the less you have to spend on the welfare state. Nobody wants to be stuck taking in sub poverty money (that's what welfare gets you) with no hope of movement.

I know I haven't really made a counter point here but it's interesting to consider the political and social landscapes of individual countries and the ways in which they can best move forwards. Do you think there would ever be a revolution in the Philippines in the near future?

 

[Beefcake]

You equating taxation as just "giving the poor people free money" isn't based in reality. We've literally discussed earlier in the thread what taxation can be used for from an infrastructure perspective - it's hardly rocket science.

The notion you and Cirion have (I know we've discussed it before, Cirion) of poor people simply being lazy and not managing their money properly is a product of being fattened by your privilege - you're completely unaware of the context and hardship people face because you've never been remotely near it. It makes me sick to my stomach knowing humans can become like this, but even more so because I know I would've been exactly the same as you if certain perspective giving life events didn't happen.

I don't blame you but it still scares me how easily people buy into the plutocrat rhetoric of "rich people worked hard, poor people didn't work hard enough" as soon as they have a remote idea that the system is working for them in some way. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you understand the incomparable value in having social infrastructure and civilised society. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you see that there's a huge amount of fortunate and personal value YOU have received from taxation and regulation and civilised society but you haven't been pushed enough to understand nuance and complexity beyond face value stories you read about those born into worse situatons than you.

It's natural, as a middle class person, to perceive taxation as simply a hindrance that serves no benefit to you beyond taking away your precious money. The fact you state you need 5million to be comfortable should hopefully prompt you to do some serious self reflection about your personal standards and insulation.

It's like you CANNOT see past the idea that a persons wealth or salary equates their innate value to society - it's patently and obviously FALSE. You've bought into the exact bullshittery that makes people drones and subservient to those that are trying to dictate law for their own benefit. Sycophantic views towards those that horde wealth and property - yep, check.

Holding onto a shallow sense of self esteem based on your own idea of self exceptionalism - the idea that you're working really hard and those other guys are just lazy and poor. The idea that if they just did this they'd be totally fine - it demonstrates complete ignorance about the nuance and challenges people face. The directions their energy must go towards and the stresses and imprisonment in their birth situation you haven't ever known.

If you want to find meaning then GO AND DO SOMETHING WORTHWHILE. Go and experience how other people are living. If you simply can't understand nuance in your current situation then go and teach in South America and see how the minimal state and unfettered capitalism operates - you do not need understanding of complexity once you see that kind of poverty imprisonment. Go and feel what it is to actually be human and not a heartless drone - I promise you will come back a different person.

You have been provided with so much by the state and public infrastructure if you grew up in Sweden and yet you've hook, line and sinker bought into the right wing media idea of self aggrandisment at the cost of putting others down so as to prop up non existent self esteem.

You are not alone in your predicament - it's natural. I really really think the utter chasm in understanding between classes in society needs to be bridged by national service of some kind (not military but police, fire, ambulance etc etc).

I'm someone that has lived in both worlds and I know how you feel but it's misguided. Half of the problems we see in society today are because those in the top jobs aren't there on merit - we have people that aren't capable of free thinking that are shoe-horned into positions as judges and lawyers and doctors and politicians (go look up the born-into wealth percentage of people in those positions) that perpetuate this ridiculous cycle.

It's not bad to have a comfortable upbringing - it's fantastic. It only becomes insidious when it's so insulated, alongside being encouraged by billionaire media barons with a strong agenda, that it turns into self aggrandisement and hatred of those worse off. Social cohesion is the thing that's missing in society - a collective and perspective giving experience that everyone must go through.

Just look at the life expectancy of countries with proper regulation and higher taxation rates, despite having far less wealth than the USA.

You are still a child. That won't change until you get out of the bubble you live in. I promise it'll be the most rewarding thing you could ever do.

I can totally see your point that some are far less fortunate and I'm aware of my fortune and those who are less so but I did not choose my life just as much as the next person. Does this mean I have to go around and be thankful all the time. In a perfect world I wish all humans could live happily and securely. But it is not a perfect world. And I did say that I dont want money just for the money sake or materialistic need. I just want to be free and in some perspectives I think 3rd world countries in a sense can be more free. But that freedom comes with a price. Lack of goverment and with lack of goverment you dont have the things that we where brought up with like police, health care, transportation and life is more of a anything can happen to me and I will die. What most people want is that safety and also the freedom to be able to live and do what ever they want. To be able to have both you need to live under a well functioning goverment that can supply you as a citizen with all those things and at the same time you have to have financial freedom to be free from the goverment. Is it possible for everyone on the planet to have this? No and it never will be. So we should just succumb to the fact that if not everyone can have it no one should? That is the right and proper thinking? I am 100% with you that those who get to live this kind of life is 99% just lucky and born with the right prerequisites and thats very unfair and unfortunate. Does this change anything? I am aware and I have travelled the world and seen Africa, South America and India. I dont really understand your point but I must be a psychopath. Your point is that I should be happy and not long for more in life? That I am fortunate and that happiness is in the moment appreciating what I got. Thats not how the human is programmed and its very sad. I can understand that under the right circumstances you can open your mind and stop wanting so much. I think daily why am I doing this what am I trying to achieve? Do I wanna lie on my death bed later and think I was to greedy and I did not spend enough time with my loved ones or I should had spendt my time helping others and saving people instead of chasing financial freedom. My point earlier was that if you had financial freedom you would spend more time with your loved ones, you would spend time on helping and saving the less fortunate and help the world in political matters. That is the dream. And your point is that you dont need money to do this.

 

[Kartoffel]

How the fuc k do you think the rich people earned their money in the first place. Either them, their parents or their grandparents worked their **** of at some point.

Yeah, and what do the achievements of your parents or grandparents have to do with you? Why should you have much greater opportunities and chances of succeeding in life just because your parents did something? That's what good governments should do. They should level the playing field and provide equal educational, social, and mental opportunities for all kids, not just the spoiled rich brats. And for that you need taxes. Schools, sports clubs, music organisations, mentor programs, etc don't create themselves out of thin air.
All the studies show that America is one of the countries with the lowest social mobility in the world. If you're rich, you're very likely to stay rich, and if you're born poor you stay poor. In fact, this is the first generation in the history of America that is earning less than their parents. Other countries do a much better job at providing the opportunities for upward social mobility. If you want to live the American dream (from rags to riches) you better move to Scandinavia or Germany.
You aren't even able to understand progressive taxes, and want to tell me how poor and rich people are made. It's a complex economic question, yet you will I probably respond to this with a dumb comment about how "these people" are not working hard enough or something. It's exactely this mindset that is causing America to go to ***t. Every indicator of physical,social, and economic health is telling us that this country is going down the drain (let's not even mention that you elected the greatest retard in the history of any country in history as your leader), and this decline has not happened because America increased its' taxes. Again: Just a few decades ago, top taxes were 70%-90%. It was the New Deal that finally made America the strongest and most dominant economy in the world for decades, not tax-hating rednecks. You parents and grandparents were able to do so well, move up the ladder, because Roosevelt and his programs allowed tens of millions of people to take opportunities that wouldn't have been there without his big government programs. Why did America prosper in that era and then declined once the neoliberals decreased taxes and regulations?

One last sidenote on all those comments like "they just need to get a simple job and start working their way up": You realize that full employment is unachievable in any modern economy, right? Even if all those people really did everything in their power to get a job, no matter how bad, millions wouldn't succeed. There are not enough jobs for all working-age people. That's a simple fact. You cannot have 0% unemployment, that's why you can't abolish social security and the welfare state. People would simply turn homeless and starving left and right, if they wouldn't receive any government support, even if they just stayed jobless for a few months. Lots of people couldn't even keept their appartments for a month or two because most don't earn enough to have substantial savings. Why don't you read a basic textbook on social economic policy before you spout nonsense like that?

It can be extremely hard for minorities to rise above that. But they do get a lot of help from the government. In fact I think it's too much of a crutch for them, they don't rise above even with the help they are receiving.

That doesn't sound racist, at all. So why do they not rise above? Are all those black and brown people simply too lazy by nature?

 

[lampofred]

You equating taxation as just "giving the poor people free money" isn't based in reality. We've literally discussed earlier in the thread what taxation can be used for from an infrastructure perspective - it's hardly rocket science.

The notion you and Cirion have (I know we've discussed it before, Cirion) of poor people simply being lazy and not managing their money properly is a product of being fattened by your privilege - you're completely unaware of the context and hardship people face because you've never been remotely near it. It makes me sick to my stomach knowing humans can become like this, but even more so because I know I would've been exactly the same as you if certain perspective giving life events didn't happen.

I don't blame you but it still scares me how easily people buy into the plutocrat rhetoric of "rich people worked hard, poor people didn't work hard enough" as soon as they have a remote idea that the system is working for them in some way. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you understand the incomparable value in having social infrastructure and civilised society. There isn't a thing I can say that will make you see that there's a huge amount of fortunate and personal value YOU have received from taxation and regulation and civilised society but you haven't been pushed enough to understand nuance and complexity beyond face value stories you read about those born into worse situatons than you.

It's natural, as a middle class person, to perceive taxation as simply a hindrance that serves no benefit to you beyond taking away your precious money. The fact you state you need 5million to be comfortable should hopefully prompt you to do some serious self reflection about your personal standards and insulation.

It's like you CANNOT see past the idea that a persons wealth or salary equates their innate value to society - it's patently and obviously FALSE. You've bought into the exact bullshittery that makes people drones and subservient to those that are trying to dictate law for their own benefit. Sycophantic views towards those that horde wealth and property - yep, check.

Holding onto a shallow sense of self esteem based on your own idea of self exceptionalism - the idea that you're working really hard and those other guys are just lazy and poor. The idea that if they just did this they'd be totally fine - it demonstrates complete ignorance about the nuance and challenges people face. The directions their energy must go towards and the stresses and imprisonment in their birth situation you haven't ever known.

If you want to find meaning then GO AND DO SOMETHING WORTHWHILE. Go and experience how other people are living. If you simply can't understand nuance in your current situation then go and teach in South America and see how the minimal state and unfettered capitalism operates - you do not need understanding of complexity once you see that kind of poverty imprisonment. Go and feel what it is to actually be human and not a heartless drone - I promise you will come back a different person.

You have been provided with so much by the state and public infrastructure if you grew up in Sweden and yet you've hook, line and sinker bought into the right wing media idea of self aggrandisment at the cost of putting others down so as to prop up non existent self esteem.

You are not alone in your predicament - it's natural. I really really think the utter chasm in understanding between classes in society needs to be bridged by national service of some kind (not military but police, fire, ambulance etc etc).

I'm someone that has lived in both worlds and I know how you feel but it's misguided. Half of the problems we see in society today are because those in the top jobs aren't there on merit - we have people that aren't capable of free thinking that are shoe-horned into positions as judges and lawyers and doctors and politicians (go look up the born-into wealth percentage of people in those positions) that perpetuate this ridiculous cycle.

It's not bad to have a comfortable upbringing - it's fantastic. It only becomes insidious when it's so insulated, alongside being encouraged by billionaire media barons with a strong agenda, that it turns into self aggrandisement and hatred of those worse off. Social cohesion is the thing that's missing in society - a collective and perspective giving experience that everyone must go through.

Just look at the life expectancy of countries with proper regulation and higher taxation rates, despite having far less wealth than the USA.

You are still a child. That won't change until you get out of the bubble you live in. I promise it'll be the most rewarding thing you could ever do.

I completely agree, but I don't think it's rich people's fault for not being empathetic. There have been studies showing that giving poor people money makes them just as unempathetic as people who were born rich and had been rich their entire lives, as if they had just completely forgotten the hardships they had been through.

Poor people are not lazy as the Right thinks and rich people are not ***holes as the Left thinks. The environment guides the ways their brains work and changing the environment will change personality. Empathy and work ethic are not nearly as consciously decided as we make them out to me.

 

[Beefcake]

Yeah, and what do the achievements of your parents or grandparents have to do with you? Why should you have much greater opportunities and chances of succeeding in life just because your parents did something? That's what good governments should do. They should level the playing field and provide equal educational, social, and mental opportunities for all kids, not just the spoiled rich brats. And for that you need taxes. Schools, sports clubs, music organisations, mentor programs, etc don't create themselves out of thin air.
All the studies show that America is one of the countries with the lowest social mobility in the world. If you're rich, you're very likely to stay rich, and if you're born poor you stay poor. In fact, this is the first generation in the history of America that is earning less than their parents. Other countries do a much better job at providing the opportunities for upward social mobility. If you want to live the American dream (from rags to riches) you better move to Scandinavia or Germany.
You aren't even able to understand progressive taxes, and want to tell me how poor and rich people are made. It's a complex economic questions, yet you will I probably respond to this with a dumb comment about how "these people" are not working hard enough or something. It's exactely this mindset that is causing America to go to ***t. Every indicator of physical,social, and economic health is telling us that this country is going down the drain (let's not even mention that you elected the greatest retard in the history of any country in history as your leader), and this decline has not happened because America increased its' taxes. Again: Just a few decades ago, top taxes were 70%-90%. It was the New Deal that finally made America the strongest and most dominant economy in the world for decades, not tax-hating rednecks. You parents and grandparents were able to do so well, move up the ladder, because Roosevelt and his programs allowed tens of millions of people to take opportunities that wouldn't have been there without his big government programs. Why did America prosper in that era and then declined once the neoliberals decreased taxes and regulations?

One last sidenote on all those comments like "they just need to get a simple job and start working their way up": You realize that full employment is unachievable in any modern economy, right? Even if all those people really did everything in their power to get a job, no matter how bad, millions wouldn't succeed. There are not enough jobs for all working-age people. That's a simple fact. You cannot have 0% unemployment, that's why you can't abolish social security and the welfare state. People would simply turn homeless and starving left and right, if they wouldn't receive any government support, even if they just stayed jobless for a few months. Lots of people couldn't even keept their appartments for a month or two because most don't earn enough to have substantial savings. Why don't you read a basic textbook on social economic policy before you spout nonsense like that?




That doesn't sound racist, at all. So why do they not rise above? Are all those black and brown people simply too lazy by nature?

Black and brown people do have a much harder time in the world thats just how it is just like women still not have same prerequisites as men. Only reason for this is cultural, traditional and jealousy. @Kartoffel You do seem to have some sort of hatred of the more fortunate and rich spoiled brat kids. Just because a kid is brought up in a rich family doesnt mean they are spoiled brats. That all has to do with parenting and I can agree most rich parents do a bad job. A lot of parents do a bad job. I wouldnt say that I myself could do a better job but thats just how it is. I was raised in a fairly rich family but my parents never gave me money ever. If I wanted money I had to work for it like everybody else. The worst was that other kids in school could bully me coz "I was more fortunate" wtf I did not choose this life. And on top of that just because my parents have money doesnt mean a kid or teenager has that money. Its still his parents money and not the kids. In sweden I didnt need my parents money to get an education because I had a goverment which paid for it with tax money. But that tax money is still my parents money and I will pay it back for the rest of my life aswell in taxes and I will pay for other kids to go to school. But some people dont go to school they dont get a job and they dont contribute to society. They do get welfare. Is that equally as fair? it is just as unfair as some people being fortunate to be born rich. Its a i hate spoiled rich brats and i hate lazy people who dont contribute to society.

 

[Beefcake]

Poor people are not lazy as the Right thinks and rich people are not ***holes as the Left thinks. The environment guides the ways their brains work and changing the environment will change personality. Empathy and work ethic are not nearly as consciously decided as we make them out to me.

exactly this. either your lazy or your an ***hole.

whats up with all the hatred? People should mind their own business and stop feeding stuff down other peoples throat. Its like vegans and meat eaters scenario. People are entitled to feel, express and do what they want. Its called democracy. And if theres enough ***holes they win. If theres enough lazy people they win. Some people just sit so high on their horses think they are better than everyone else and are saving the world

 

[Beefcake]

 

[Kartoffel]

Black and brown people do have a much harder time in the world thats just how it is just like women still not have same prerequisites as men. Only reason for this is cultural, traditional and jealousy. @Kartoffel You do seem to have some sort of hatred of the more fortunate and rich spoiled brat kids. Just because a kid is brought up in a rich family doesnt mean they are spoiled brats. That all has to do with parenting and I can agree most rich parents do a bad job. A lot of parents do a bad job. I wouldnt say that I myself could do a better job but thats just how it is. I was raised in a fairly rich family but my parents never gave me money ever. If I wanted money I had to work for it like everybody else. The worst was that other kids in school could bully me coz "I was more fortunate" wtf I did not choose this life. And on top of that just because my parents have money doesnt mean a kid or teenager has that money. Its still his parents money and not the kids. In sweden I didnt need my parents money to get an education because I had a goverment which paid for it with tax money. But that tax money is still my parents money and I will pay it back for the rest of my life aswell in taxes and I will pay for other kids to go to school. But some people dont go to school they dont get a job and they dont contribute to society. They do get welfare. Is that equally as fair? it is just as unfair as some people being fortunate to be born rich. Its a i hate spoiled rich brats and i hate lazy people who dont contribute to society.

Do you even realize how egocentric you are? Everything you say just shows how the cliche of the spoiled rich kid really comes true sometimes. People get unemployed, lose their jobs, many loose their social life because of this, get depressed, kill themselves, and all you can think of is: How is it fair that I pay for these no good, lazy bums with my taxes? You live in your own sick, little fantasy world where every unemployed person chooses to have no job because it's so great and you get free money. Are you really so thick that you can't comprehend that unemployment is unavoidable in modern economies and that the overwhelming majority of unemployed people don't want to be unemployed?
You complain that your parents pay for public school with their money. So what? Kids whose parents are unemployed shouldn't be allowed to go to the same school as taxpaying kids? You think just because your partens didn't give you lots of cash pocket money that you didn't have more ressources than kids from poor parents? You still lived in a bigger house, got better food, better intellectual stimuli, more interesting cultural life, a more stable environment, etc. There is no reason to discuss this further with you. You can only think in dumb stereotypes and don't understand simple socioeconomic facts and processes.