To Haidut : What Do You Usually Eat In A Day?

[Dan W]

but not before some @Dan Wich Danwichism

Hey, welcome back! I trust your long retreat to the Kung Fu monastery has reforged you into the crimefighting hero we've always known you to be.

 

[4peatssake]

Hey, welcome back! I trust your long retreat to the Kung Fu monastery has reforged you into the crimefighting hero we've always known you to be.

naw, i opted to train with the celts. heh

good to see ya

 

[Amazoniac]

This will teach me not to parachute into a conversation!
@charlie @Blossom - feel free to move this to a more appropriate location- or delete.

hehe so you know me well enough (if you've read any of my posts from years ago) that I am staunch advocate of "doing the food" first and foremost. get clear with your issues and all that fun stuff. that's the basics, so let's be clear on that first. food, first.

thing is, I consider thyroid to be food and this is where our difference lies - it's not in the argument over using supplements as crutches - that's what the medical drug cartel does after all, their entire model is built around a disease culture and keeping folks in that state for a lifetime. it supplies it with its energy after all.

my point is that we are still having the wrong conversations and that's because of the continued mind control/slavery perpetrated by a deranged culture.

it loves that people are obsessed with their ill health and discussing the usefulness of specific amino acids & supplements etc. as if you could come up with the perfect dietary cocktail and all your troubles will be over. ah nope. not only that, the foods we once ate normally and naturally, like thyroid glands, are now considered to be "supplements."

it's like taking a porcelain dinner plate and throwing it against the wall and studying the broken bits of porcelain in a vain attempt to understand the plate. yeah do that, the culture says. but who's getting well and feeling joyful - or well enough to help others get well, stay well and make a dent in the status quo? this is one of the reasons, i direct people to kate deering's book. it's a start. but a real tough roe to hoe to find truth, which is what ray peat is actually all about. and believe me, i've worked with and seen enough very sick people, not able to understand a word i am saying now, but those who are open and willing to truly help themselves can and do get well and discover the truth when they are ready. and it can start with food.

before our food supply was contaminated to the degree it is today, people ate the entire animal, which included the thyroid gland, as well as lots of dairy, saturated fat and whole foods. many of the dietary deficiencies people encounter today are the result of the culture worsening, and further contaminating our food, air and water supplies; it's not from people not getting it right. that's what bothers me about these discussions; people end up circling back upon one another and arguing - mostly for the sake of trying to win an argument. that's what happens among imbalanced humans. - instincts in collision. and that's already happened after one measly post. so not fun.

the culture is what is preventing people from getting it right.
and this is why people who do "get it" don't stay here and argue. there is no joy in that and no point.
(that said, to @charlie for keeping the doors open here for people to study and learn. selfless service that.)

take ray, for example, he's now nearly 80 and spent a lifetime, studying, researching, writing about the same thing - essentially to expose the horrors of the culture he has lived his entire life in. he CHOSE nutrition and women's health because every other avenue available to him was BARRED by authority. if he had his druthers, he would have studied linguistics. he's a hero among heroes in my book. he works mostly alone. and, afaik, he's still nibbling away daily on thyroid to keep his metabolism humming along where he sees fit for it to be.

most people don't go farther back than hans selye but even he and his work were infected by authority; to protect his life he was forced to distance himself from koch who would not back down and was deported to brazil as a result. this is the reason ray quotes older studies - he painstakingly searches for studies still based upon the truthful thinking of that critical period of time. the remnants are there but they are not easy to find!

tarmandering!
and yes, you too, my friend; hope you are well & best of luck.
we can chat further offline if you like.

but not before some @Dan Wich Danwichism
i think was from when he was testing red light, not sure tho. heh

Those are nice words indeed. But consider how everyone is eating thyroid? From tablets, not from the animal. That's a supplement for me. The first sensory part was already lost when you down a pill. Now regardless of how it's framed, it's a stimulant and when the body slows down, it does so with a purpose. Thyroid isn't like coffee that offers nutrition, it's more like plain caffeine. People can go wrong with all foods, but if the body slowed down, forcing it up without support is lack of wisdom. And people are lacking the support, otherwise the body would not be in conservation mode. But I'm mostly against precipitation or excess.

There is also a culture around Ray, which might be misinterpreting his work failing to realize that '"More energised" is not exactly where one wants to be most of the time. Everything has costs, and putting out energy all the time comes with its inherent cost.'

Regarding Ray, the story is less altruistic in my opinion. He might have gotten into nutrition because it was a sensible thing to do when not feeling well. According to Zeus, he mentioned somewhere that he had an extremely suppressed metabolism. Travisord commented with me that necessity is the mother of invention. He was perhaps in need of this, that might have been what kept him interest in nutrition and health during this whole time; otherwise losing interest just like that person that moves on like you said. I'm not diminishing his merit in any way. The women subject perhaps just took a ride in his core interests; he might have realized that he could help others while helping himself.

When it comes to Koch being deported to Brazil, that's quite a punishment. I want to report that I just received something through the mail that took 4 months to arrive and when I opened it was violated with a retractable knife during careless customs clearance; leaving it with a cut and the only thing cleared in the story was its content. Regarding chatting offline, you would need to visit me and I don't recommend it because no tourist has ever returned alive. #unfairrebel

 

[4peatssake]

Those are nice words indeed. But consider how everyone is eating thyroid? From tablets, not from the animal. That's a supplement for me. The first sensory part was already lost when you down a pill. Now regardless of how it's framed, it's a stimulant and when the body slows down, it does so with a purpose. Thyroid isn't like coffee that offers nutrition, it's more like plain caffeine. People can go wrong with all foods, but if the body slowed down, forcing it up without support is lack of wisdom. And people are lacking the support, otherwise the body would not be in conservation mode. I'm mostly against precipitation or excess.

There is also a culture around Ray, which might be misinterpreting his work failing to realize that '"More energised" is not exactly where one wants to be most of the time. Everything has costs, and putting out energy all the time comes with its inherent cost.'

Regarding Ray, the story is less altruistic in my opinion. He might have gotten into nutrition because it was a sensible thing to do when not feeling well. According to Zeus, he mentioned somewhere that he had an extremely suppressed metabolism. Travisord commented with me that necessity is the mother of invention. He was perhaps in need of this, that might have been what kept him interest in nutrition and health during this whole time; otherwise losing interest just like that person that moves on like you said. I'm not diminishing his merit in any way. The women subject perhaps just took a ride in his core interests; he might have realized that he could help others while helping himself.

When it comes to Koch being deported to Brazil, that's quite a punishment. I feel pleased to announce that I just received something through the mail that took 4 months to arrive and when I opened it was violated with a retractable knife during customs clearance; the interior of the box being the only thing cleared with that. Regarding chatting offline, you would need to visit me and I don't recommend it because no tourist has ever returned alive. #unfairrebel

hmmm.
who said anything about forcing a body up without support?
i don't know if i agree with anything you say here. i take ray at his word and don't guess at his reasons for his choices in life.

Thyroid isn't like coffee that offers nutrition, it's more like plain caffeine.

says who?

 

[4peatssake]

People can go wrong with all foods, but if the body slowed down, forcing it up without support is lack of wisdom. And people are lacking the support, otherwise the body would not be in conservation mode. But I'm mostly against precipitation or excess.

and this...^
is completely counter intuitive and unwise to me.
the body is going into conservation mode because it desperately NEEDS energy and I daresay that something isn't anything that sustains and supports it continuing to remain in "conservation mode." Give it energy man.

no one is advocating pushing the river but to argue against using thyroid because it's now only available as a supplement? seriously?

 

[Amazoniac]

hmmm.
who said anything about forcing a body up without support?
i don't know if i agree with anything you say here. i take ray at his word and don't guess at his reasons for his choices in life.


says who?

While it's true that it's a piece of meat after all, no one consumes it for anything else other than the hormones; unlike coffee for example, where you can find people drinking it decaffeinated.

However my main questioning this entire time wasn't 'what is considered food or supplement', it was 'if it's good or not to stimulate someone on a suppressed state with thyroid hormones'. There is value in trying to restore your own hormones without the external assistance because you really have to address the cause, perhaps by supplying a temporary excess of needed nutrition. Most of the framing idea comes to support its indiscriminate use in my opinion.

We have to convey that if it remains suppressed, it means that the conditions required to return to normal weren't met yet. The use of stimulants in a suppressed state is an attempt to restore the normal function of the body in inadequate resource conditions.

and this...^
is completely counter intuitive and unwise to me.
the body is going into conservation mode because it desperately NEEDS energy and I daresay that something isn't anything that sustains and supports it continuing to remain in "conservation mode." Give it energy man.

no one is advocating pushing the river but to argue against using thyroid because it's now only available as a supplement? seriously?

If there isn't actual damage in anything related to our own production of thyroid hormones, then it's clear that the difficulty here is to find the resources needed for our own production of energy. Like Rayzord mentioned a few pages back, supplying the hormone makes the body better in extracting what it wants and rejecting what it doesn't, but this is in essence becoming more efficient, and not actually addressing the cause. If the cause was addressed, no prolonged use was needed.

Wagner already exemplified these points.
It's quite an internal dillema, isn't it?

 

[Wagner83]

I would keep my distances from your points in that I think you are saying nutrients in particular are at the root of most issues, so that if the body does not function well it is because of imbalances and deficiencies in one or more of them. I'm not sure if nutrients are actually what matters most or if decent nutrition and energy combined with the most tolerated foods (gut irritation, speed and regularity of transit time, blood sugar levels, insulin, allergies..) is what matter most. An other point to consider is that diet aside, environment and in my own experience, the body itself (toughts?), can have their own ups and downs. Now if you take the case of haidut (pepsi) and tyw (white rice, crackers..) even more, there's a matter of whether or not the most nutritious diet is superior to an other one which may promote more readily utilized energy.
So to sum it up I personally doubt the cause of most issues is necessarily seen in deficiencies of nutrients, but then we are left with the discussion between what controls what (hormones, energy or minerals/vitamins, Heck/Wilson or Ray Ray).
Out of curiosity what makes you think nutrients, minerals/vitamins are upstream? If they have so dramatic effects why is supplementing them ok?

 

[Amazoniac]

Out of curiosity what makes you think nutrients, minerals/vitamins are upstream?

In my opinion this is not about nutrients versus hormones or what comes first. We have our own coordinating system that is behaving in a given negative way for a reason. The challenging thing is discovering why it is doing that. It can be hard sometimes, but piling up hormones and stimulants in the story can make it harder. When you stimulate a body that's trying to supress, you're working against it in a sense. The cause is not being addressed.
I have some immature ideas that can be wrong. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Wagner83]

It can be hard sometimes, but piling up hormones and stimulants in the story can make it harder. When you stimulate a body that's trying to supress, you're working against it in a sense. The cause is not being addressed.
I have some immature ideas that can be wrong. I'm just thinking out loud.

From what I understand quite often Ray thinks in terms of virtuous circles, protective steroids, compounds, versus negative circles (estrogens, stress etc..). So in some ways providing the body with support while addressing environment (this is usually obvious enough for who wants to see) helps it heal in most cases. In that light I'd say your second sentence goes directly against what he preaches (doesn't mean he's right).
Like I said I do agree that finding a proper diet while using potent supplements is a tricky business because sometimes we'd like things to work based on theory, we get by with poor choices we are not even aware of, we try to make a defined ideal diet work as much as possible etc..

 

[HDD]

@Amazoniac So you’re saying that supplementing thyroid isn’t necessary for anyone except those who’ve had their thyroid gland damaged or removed? Are you familiar with Broda Barnes? and “Solved, the Riddle of the Heart Attack”? My aunt died from a heart attack at age 45. Should people continually search for the missing element that has caused lower thyroid function? Do most people even realize that their thyroid function is impaired? What about people who have been hypothyroid since childhood and have been diagnosed with various illnesses that a thyroid supplement would effectively cure?! I was diagnosed with MS, and fortunately did not take the recommended medications. Many “illnesses” can be cured with proper thyroid function. In my family, arthritis, osteoporosis, breast cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, Alzheimer, etc. are common. Many have have had joint replacements. I believe that impaired thyroid function is responsible for most of these maladies. Ray has said that you can live a long life with a lower metabolism, but that a higher metabolism makes you more resistant to stress. Maybe those who are fortunate to find Ray Peat’s work while they are young are able to stop the damage from impaired metabolism by dietary/environmental means.
However, for those who are older, I’ll leave you with this quote (which I may have already posted somewhere).~~
“So after a certain point, even changing your diet away from the toxic, inhibiting fats won't do the job of restoring your thyroid function if you have accumulated so much of this age pigment, because it is going to waste any oxygen that your cells can receive. At this point, a whole system of degenerative conditions sets in, in which the mucoproteins increase because of the stress conditions, which are basically the same as the low thyroid conditions -- all of these lead to accumulating mucoid materials accumulating -- the blood vessels are lined with this material, the red blood cells can't pick up oxygen as efficiently because of this mucopolysaccharide layer, the lung sacs get expanded and thickened so that the air doesn't diffuse through them efficiently, and that increases the susceptibility of the aging animal to stress. A smaller stress makes them more acutely oxygen deficient, and that produces the age pigment at an even higher rate.”

 

[Braveheart]

In my opinion this is not about nutrients versus hormones or what comes first. We have our own coordinating system that is behaving in a given negative way for a reason. The challenging thing is discovering why it is doing that. It can be hard sometimes, but piling up hormones and stimulants in the story can make it harder. When you stimulate a body that's trying to supress, you're working against it in a sense. The cause is not being addressed.
I have some immature ideas that can be wrong. I'm just thinking out loud.

Like your ideas...don't think they are wrong...they got me thinking

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac So you’re saying that supplementing thyroid isn’t necessary for anyone except those who’ve had their thyroid gland damaged or removed? Are you familiar with Broda Barnes? and “Solved, the Riddle of the Heart Attack”? My aunt died from a heart attack at age 45. Should people continually search for the missing element that has caused lower thyroid function? Do most people even realize that their thyroid function is impaired? What about people who have been hypothyroid since childhood and have been diagnosed with various illnesses that a thyroid supplement would effectively cure?! I was diagnosed with MS, and fortunately did not take the recommended medications. Many “illnesses” can be cured with proper thyroid function. In my family, arthritis, osteoporosis, breast cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, Alzheimer, etc. are common. Many have have had joint replacements. I believe that impaired thyroid function is responsible for most of these maladies. Ray has said that you can live a long life with a lower metabolism, but that a higher metabolism makes you more resistant to stress. Maybe those who are fortunate to find Ray Peat’s work while they are young are able to stop the damage from impaired metabolism by dietary/environmental means.
However, for those who are older, I’ll leave you with this quote (which I may have already posted somewhere).~~
“So after a certain point, even changing your diet away from the toxic, inhibiting fats won't do the job of restoring your thyroid function if you have accumulated so much of this age pigment, because it is going to waste any oxygen that your cells can receive. At this point, a whole system of degenerative conditions sets in, in which the mucoproteins increase because of the stress conditions, which are basically the same as the low thyroid conditions -- all of these lead to accumulating mucoid materials accumulating -- the blood vessels are lined with this material, the red blood cells can't pick up oxygen as efficiently because of this mucopolysaccharide layer, the lung sacs get expanded and thickened so that the air doesn't diffuse through them efficiently, and that increases the susceptibility of the aging animal to stress. A smaller stress makes them more acutely oxygen deficient, and that produces the age pigment at an even higher rate.”

You didn't read my posts, but I still respect you.

It's possible for me to stay too long on a supressed state, but it's also possible to precipitate and miss the chance to perceive what's wrong more clearly; it's something that goes back to the hell threshold above.

I never denied its therapeutic value, but the fact that people need to keep taking indefinitely is a sign that it isn't addressing the cause. I don't think that creating this sense of doomed fate and therefore dependency is the best way to go. People need to feel compelled to abandon it as soon as possible. That's why I have the impression that framing it as food is essentially a way to support its indiscriminate use. This is one line of argument.

The other is that life is short, y.o.l.o., and there's nothing wrong in doing whatever makes you feel best as long as it's manageable and sustainable.

 

[Tenacity]

I'm with @Amazoniac on this one. I tried to fix my problems by revving up energy and it backfired massively. More energy certainly makes the healing process quicker and safer, but all the right things have to be in place.

 

[4peatssake]

While it's true that it's a piece of meat after all, no one consumes it for anything else other than the hormones; unlike coffee for example, where you can find people drinking it decaffeinated.

Well, in a healthy and balanced culture, I daresay people would ONLY choose to consume what is healthy and good for their bodies. But we're a long way from that. People have long lost the ability to properly know how to care for their physical bodies, or worse even care to properly care for them. And that has been by design by a demented culture built to enslave people.

I harp on this because if that context is lost & forgotten, we lose, and mindlessly seek physical body relief with abnormal sensory pleasure via mind control. The culture doesn't mind that at all. It thrives on that. If we're unable to achieve good health, then our entire focus is on getting good health and we don't fully escape the enslavement and experience true, joyful living.

I've no clue why people drink decaffeinated coffee. That's like drinking a virgin caesar to me and I don't even drink alcohol. I mean, what's the point. That's not to say there's anything wrong with it though, I'm just being a bit judgy. haha Maybe it's a social thing. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't personally see a benefit and I'm particular about my "liquids."

However my main questioning this entire time wasn't 'what is considered food or supplement', it was 'if it's good or not to stimulate someone on a suppressed state with thyroid hormones'. There is value in trying to restore your own hormones without the external assistance because you really have to address the cause, perhaps by supplying a temporary excess of needed nutrition. Most of the framing idea comes to support its indiscriminate use in my opinion.

if it's good or not to stimulate someone on a suppressed state with thyroid hormones

Hell yes! But not without intelligence and understanding.

I understand that you are seeking balance and have concern about excess but in THIS culture that's the norm. How can we possibly seek to achieve an ideal when our bodies are being subjected to horrendous pollutants in our air, food and water supply from which we are unable to escape. Why do you think it's so difficult to access some of these so-called "supplements?" Dan's work alone to source and create a database of the purest ones and haidut having literally created a lab to make them point to this reality. I used to have to get thyroid from Thailand for crying out loud.

Your point isn't helpful to me simply because it begs me to be living in a different culture that our current one. Most of what people are doing to survive this thing is not what they would be doing in a healthy culture where people are free and able to live and experience healthy, joyful and productive lives.

We simply cannot escape the reality of the current culture. We must adapt to it. And thyroid is pretty much the Holy Grail, nutritionally speaking, especially if you have serious issues. (it is not the only way to access energy of course, it's simply a primary means the culture focused upon to rob us of energy on a physical level) Please don't take this to mean that I think everyone should be taking thyroid. Of course not. I'm not taking it anymore. Everyone's context is different and needs to be properly addressed. Every physical body is unique and its needs are entirely different from the next person, even if they have similar profiles. There are many, many variables and factors to consider and account for.

We have to convey that if it remains suppressed, it means that the conditions required to return to normal weren't met yet. The use of stimulants in a suppressed state is an attempt to restore the normal function of the body in inadequate resource conditions.

Well, I am not an authority so I don't consider it necessary that I "convey" anything. These are my views based upon my life experience and from working with others. I don't think people ought to give up but to keep rising up in the face of tremendous oppression. I don't wish to discourage anyone nor suggest that because things are not working for them, they should stop what they are doing. And we've gone from "supplement" to "stimulant" in language and I don't consider thyroid to be either of those. I understand that in taking it, it will have an effect, and if done properly, a very helpful one simply because it is protective and can help turn around a fiercely degenerative condition. But these are generalities.

I think again this is a matter of forgetting where you are and what we are actually up against. And to me, a misleading message to convey to hurting people. (See HDD's excellent post, discussing her life experience.)

If there isn't actual damage in anything related to our own production of thyroid hormones, then it's clear that the difficulty here is to find the resources needed for our own production of energy. Like Rayzord mentioned a few pages back, supplying the hormone makes the body better in extracting what it wants and rejecting what it doesn't, but this is in essence becoming more efficient, and not actually addressing the cause. If the cause was addressed, no prolonged use was needed.

And who decides that for us? Who is the authority on the magic number of what constitutes the proper functioning of our thyroid gland or any other body part for that matter? I don't trust this culture with anything. Most certainly not my life and well being.

We know that most labs are base upon erroneous marks. I'll give a life example. Someone I know started having vision problems. His ophthalmologist misdiagnosed their condition and this person ended up mostly blind from a pit tumor. When they removed it, their pituitary gland was destroyed and this person is now forced to take hormones to survive - not because there is anything wrong with their ability to produce them - but that they no longer have appropriate direction for when to release them. I had the opportunity to advocate for this individual who was given the absolute WORST medical advice I could imagine. If they'd followed that, I doubt they'd be here now.

That doesn't make me anything but better informed and able to navigate a deranged medical drug cartel that fashions itself as "health" care. And able to help a suffering person who lacked the ability - at that time in their life - to advocate for themselves.

It's quite an internal dillema, isn't it?

Keep us on our toes, heh

 

[HDD]

You didn't read my posts, but I still respect you.

>>>I did read your posts and I agree to a certain extent. I think those who are hypo from bad diet, environment, etc. are able to fix their low thyroid state. However, if someone is hypo from their mother’s Hypothyroidism, I’m not sure they would be able to achieve and maintain health without supplementing thyroid or other various supplements to achieve good health. Before I ever took any thyroid, I did achieve a healthy metabolism. This was through diet and various supplements. It was actually a full time ordeal to keep things running well. And I did/do feel my best in this state. However, I do become easily hypo without proper attention to diet and supplements, especially in the winter. I used to cook chicken necks and fish heads for the t3. This isn’t always convenient. It also seems that chasing the missing nutrient is quite convoluted. As is looking at thyroid labs.

I never denied its therapeutic value, but the fact that people need to keep taking indefinitely is a sign that it isn't addressing the cause.

>>>So if someone is hypo from birth, you believe thyroid supplentation should correct this along with a good diet and therefore they should be able to discontinue their thyroid meds.?

I don't think that creating this sense of doomed fate and therefore dependency is the best way to go. People need to feel compelled to abandon it as soon as possible. That's why I have the impression that framing it as food is essentially a way to support its indiscriminate use. This is one line of argument.

>>>I would rather my doomed fate be hypothyroidism than MS because I feel that taking thyroid is giving my body something it needs rather than treating a symptom. I don’t take it continually or excessively but as needed. As I stated before, there are ways without thyroid but I feel thyroid is safe if taken properly.

The other is that life is short, y.o.l.o., and there's nothing wrong in doing whatever makes you feel best as long as it's manageable and sustainable.

I agree!

 

[Amazoniac]

Well, in a healthy and balanced culture, I daresay people would ONLY choose to consume what is healthy and good for their bodies. But we're a long way from that. People have long lost the ability to properly know how to care for their physical bodies, or worse even care to properly care for them. And that has been by design by a demented culture built to enslave people.

I harp on this because if that context is lost & forgotten, we lose, and mindlessly seek physical body relief with abnormal sensory pleasure via mind control. The culture doesn't mind that at all. It thrives on that. If we're unable to achieve good health, then our entire focus is on getting good health and we don't fully escape the enslavement and experience true, joyful living.

I've no clue why people drink decaffeinated coffee. That's like drinking a virgin caesar to me and I don't even drink alcohol. I mean, what's the point. That's not to say there's anything wrong with it though, I'm just being a bit judgy. haha Maybe it's a social thing. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't personally see a benefit and I'm particular about my "liquids."



if it's good or not to stimulate someone on a suppressed state with thyroid hormones

Hell yes! But not without intelligence and understanding.

I understand that you are seeking balance and have concern about excess but in THIS culture that's the norm. How can we possibly seek to achieve an ideal when our bodies are being subjected to horrendous pollutants in our air, food and water supply from which we are unable to escape. Why do you think it's so difficult to access some of these so-called "supplements?" Dan's work alone to source and create a database of the purest ones and haidut having literally created a lab to make them point to this reality. I used to have to get thyroid from Thailand for crying out loud.

Your point isn't helpful to me simply because it begs me to be living in a different culture that our current one. Most of what people are doing to survive this thing is not what they would be doing in a healthy culture where people are free and able to live and experience healthy, joyful and productive lives.

We simply cannot escape the reality of the current culture. We must adapt to it. And thyroid is pretty much the Holy Grail, nutritionally speaking, especially if you have serious issues. (it is not the only way to access energy of course, it's simply a primary means the culture focused upon to rob us of energy on a physical level) Please don't take this to mean that I think everyone should be taking thyroid. Of course not. I'm not taking it anymore. Everyone's context is different and needs to be properly addressed. Every physical body is unique and its needs are entirely different from the next person, even if they have similar profiles. There are many, many variables and factors to consider and account for.



Well, I am not an authority so I don't consider it necessary that I "convey" anything. These are my views based upon my life experience and from working with others. I don't think people ought to give up but to keep rising up in the face of tremendous oppression. I don't wish to discourage anyone nor suggest that because things are not working for them, they should stop what they are doing. And we've gone from "supplement" to "stimulant" in language and I don't consider thyroid to be either of those. I understand that in taking it, it will have an effect, and if done properly, a very helpful one simply because it is protective and can help turn around a fiercely degenerative condition. But these are generalities.

I think again this is a matter of forgetting where you are and what we are actually up against. And to me, a misleading message to convey to hurting people. (See HDD's excellent post, discussing her life experience.)



And who decides that for us? Who is the authority on the magic number of what constitutes the proper functioning of our thyroid gland or any other body part for that matter? I don't trust this culture with anything. Most certainly not my life and well being.

We know that most labs are base upon erroneous marks. I'll give a life example. Someone I know started having vision problems. His ophthalmologist misdiagnosed their condition and this person ended up mostly blind from a pit tumor. When they removed it, their pituitary gland was destroyed and this person is now forced to take hormones to survive - not because there is anything wrong with their ability to produce them - but that they no longer have appropriate direction for when to release them. I had the opportunity to advocate for this individual who was given the absolute WORST medical advice I could imagine. If they'd followed that, I doubt they'd be here now.

That doesn't make me anything but better informed and able to navigate a deranged medical drug cartel that fashions itself as "health" care. And able to help a suffering person who lacked the ability - at that time in their life - to advocate for themselves.


Keep us on our toes, heh

I would need to take thyroid to be able to respond to every point. I read it but it's a giant text!

You didn't read my posts, but I still respect you.

>>>I did read your posts and I agree to a certain extent. I think those who are hypo from bad diet, environment, etc. are able to fix their low thyroid state. However, if someone is hypo from their mother’s Hypothyroidism, I’m not sure they would be able to achieve and maintain health without supplementing thyroid or other various supplements to achieve good health. Before I ever took any thyroid, I did achieve a healthy metabolism. This was through diet and various supplements. It was actually a full time ordeal to keep things running well. And I did/do feel my best in this state. However, I do become easily hypo without proper attention to diet and supplements, especially in the winter. I used to cook chicken necks and fish heads for the t3. This isn’t always convenient. It also seems that chasing the missing nutrient is quite convoluted. As is looking at thyroid labs.

I never denied its therapeutic value, but the fact that people need to keep taking indefinitely is a sign that it isn't addressing the cause.

>>>So if someone is hypo from birth, you believe thyroid supplentation should correct this along with a good diet and therefore they should be able to discontinue their thyroid meds.?

I don't think that creating this sense of doomed fate and therefore dependency is the best way to go. People need to feel compelled to abandon it as soon as possible. That's why I have the impression that framing it as food is essentially a way to support its indiscriminate use. This is one line of argument.

>>>I would rather my doomed fate be hypothyroidism than MS because I feel that taking thyroid is giving my body something it needs rather than treating a symptom. I don’t take it continually or excessively but as needed. As I stated before, there are ways without thyroid but I feel thyroid is safe if taken properly.

The other is that life is short, y.o.l.o., and there's nothing wrong in doing whatever makes you feel best as long as it's manageable and sustainable.

I agree!

There are plenty of cases that use it unnecessarily, this is the bothering part that I try to stay away. Like Wagner mentioned, it doesn't need involve nutrition directly; it can a bad environment and the thyroid being used as a tool to make it more tolerable. As you ease a bad situation, you not only make the experience more confusing but you also feel less compelled to rebel and act on it, therefore remaining longer than you should. You commented that on a given point you were extremely vulnerable to changes, this can be very helpful to identify problems more clearly, but of course it can extend for too long, becoming risky. Can you see the point?

 

[HDD]

I would need to take thyroid to be able to respond to every point. I read it but it's a giant text!

There are plenty of cases that use it unnecessarily, this is the bothering part that I try to stay away.


Like Wagner mentioned, it doesn't need involve nutrition directly; it can a bad environment and the thyroid being used as a tool to make it more tolerable. As you ease a bad situation, you not only make the experience more confusing but you also feel less compelled to rebel and act on it, therefore remaining longer than you should.

>>>Maybe thyroid is protective and some environments can’t be controlled (rebelled or acted upon).

You commented that on a given point you were extremely vulnerable to changes, this can be very helpful to identify problems more clearly, but of course it can extend for too long, becoming risky.
Can you see the point?

>>>Yes, I’ve experienced this personally. As much as I’d like to not have to pay attention to my diet and supplements, I do suffer the consequences of lowered metabolism and less resistance to stress when I don’t. Is that your point?

 

[Amazoniac]

I would need to take thyroid to be able to respond to every point. I read it but it's a giant text!

There are plenty of cases that use it unnecessarily, this is the bothering part that I try to stay away.


Like Wagner mentioned, it doesn't need involve nutrition directly; it can a bad environment and the thyroid being used as a tool to make it more tolerable. As you ease a bad situation, you not only make the experience more confusing but you also feel less compelled to rebel and act on it, therefore remaining longer than you should.

>>>Maybe thyroid is protective and some environments can’t be controlled (rebelled or acted upon).

You commented that on a given point you were extremely vulnerable to changes, this can be very helpful to identify problems more clearly, but of course it can extend for too long, becoming risky.
Can you see the point?

>>>Yes, I’ve experienced this personally. As much as I’d like to not have to pay attention to my diet and supplements, I do suffer the consequences of lowered metabolism and less resistance to stress when I don’t. Is that your point?

It's not suppressing or blurring the negative side of the experience too soon or excessively because it can give you clues about what you are supposed to do to solve it. Too poetic for reality, right?

I just want to let you know that I will never forget this historical moment. A moving moment in which someone managed to teach you something about quotations.

 

[HDD]

It's not suppressing or blurring the negative side of the experience too soon or excessively because it can give you clues about what you are supposed to do to solve it. Too poetic for reality, right?

I just want to let you know that I will never forget this historical moment. A moving moment in which someone managed to teach you something about quotations.

Lol, it’s easier for me the way I answered!

As far as the use of thyroid, I think it is very important for those that need it. It can prevent or cure breast cancer, heart attacks, MS, arthritis, osteoporosis, mental issues, etc. Thyroid is a panacea. Clearly the problem is in diagnosing and the current medical treatment of thyroid disorders. Ray Peat has generously provided adequate information to wade through all the misinformation that we are bombarded with regarding this. It is up to each of us how we use this information and this forum has been instrumental to me in discussing these issues at length.

 

[Amazoniac]

Lol, it’s easier for me the way I answered!

As far as the use of thyroid, I think it is very important for those that need it. It can prevent or cure breast cancer, heart attacks, MS, arthritis, osteoporosis, mental issues, etc. Thyroid is a panacea. Clearly the problem is in diagnosing and the current medical treatment of thyroid disorders. Ray Peat has generously provided adequate information to wade through all the misinformation that we are bombarded with regarding this. It is up to each of us how we use this information and this forum has been instrumental to me in discussing these issues at length.

For a long time I've been a belieber in infections as main pattern-holders. The therapeutic triad of extra potassium, niacin, and vit C provide support for recovery. Gerson included iodine in his protocol along with thyroid (I suspect it's for immunity), it can be a questionable cherry on top of those.