Evidence That Cortisol Really Does Cause Hair Loss

[Arrade]

@Arrade LOL Are you freakin trolling? You are refering to oral administration of Ket, topically it does not have those effects bro. Were's your head at?

"... ketoconazole is an androgen receptor antagonist, competing with androgens such as testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding to the androgen receptor. This effect is thought to be quite weak however, even with high oral doses of ketoconazole.[34]"

[34] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1526623
"It should be noted, however, that the dose of ketoconazole required for 50% occupancy of the androgen receptor is not likely to be achieved in vivo, at least in plasma."

Are you ignorant of the fact that skin application often leads to absorption into the blood stream fairly often?
Did you see my studies showed it had effects in lowering testosterone in men? It also raised estrogen?
I myself said it was weak but it has shown to have a statistically significant effect and is probably the reason it works for hairloss

 

[Arrade]

I have to use correct grammar?
Generally speaking:
"Androgenic" is the adjective form of the noun "androgen," a word referring to any of the male hormones, including testosterone and androsterone.

Also: Estrogenic drugs, can be either pro or anti -estrogenic, same for androgenic. Thus correct grammar irrelevant.

No correct grammar is relevant. it should have been "effect on androgens" not androgenic. Androgenic implies pro-androgen effect in its name.

@boxers I posted at the bottom of a previous post that low dose did not seem to have an effect on blood levels, however I felt it may have had a tiny effect mentally through my anecdotal use.
So you can take it for what it's worth, by no means did I say it was a sure thing infact in my original post I said I wasn't sure.

However I think the risk is there, it could have bound to receptors in the brain through local application before it built into noticeable levels in the blood serum or suppressed actual androgen production, instead just having an effect on local receptors

 

[General Orange]

@Arrade
I hope you realize it is important to differentiate between placebo effects or real effects in your experiments or experience with substances, otherwise you're results do not qualify as empirical evidence.

Are you ignorant of the fact that skin application often leads to absorption into the blood stream fairly often?
Did you see my studies showed it had effects in lowering testosterone in men? It also raised estrogen?
I myself said it was weak but it has shown to have a statistically significant effect and is probably the reason it works for hairloss

No, that is the think KET works by other ways then anti-androgen, possibly via inhibiting FAAH that prevent uptake of Anandamide, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[Arrade]

I have to use correct grammar?
Generally speaking:
"Androgenic" is the adjective form of the noun "androgen," a word referring to any of the male hormones, including testosterone and androsterone.

Also: Estrogenic drugs, can be either pro or anti -estrogenic, same for androgenic. Thus correct grammar irrelevant.

You are completely wrong and are using erroneous syntax of the work estrogenic. Estrogenic implies pro-estrogen effects.
English is my native language and I have been published in literature as well as tested out of college english while in high school through advanced tests. I placed in the top 1% percentile for understanding of the English language and my writing ability while in school. I also read the most books in grade school for district scored by me taking computer exams to test my comprehension of books.

 

[Arrade]

@Arrade
I hope you realize it is important to differentiate between placebo effects or real effects in your experiments or experience with substances, otherwise you're results do not qualify as empirical evidence.



No, that is the think KET works by other ways then anti-androgen, possibly via inhibiting FAAH that prevent uptake of Anandamide, as I mentioned earlier.

Anecdotal experience is still valuable. I know what placebo is, yes it is hard to put into a data set my subjective feelings of how I felt.
I did not say it was empirical I was simply offering my viewpoint, it may come out later that keto shampoo can have localized effects in the brain and not be measurable through testing blood serum levels or production of androgens.

 

[General Orange]

@Arrade I could say something about how it amazes me that you try so hard to argue about small irrelevant things but I wont.

 

[General Orange]

Are you ignorant of the fact that skin application often leads to absorption into the blood stream fairly often?
Did you see my studies showed it had effects in lowering testosterone in men? It also raised estrogen?
I myself said it was weak but it has shown to have a statistically significant effect and is probably the reason it works for hairloss

Am I ignorant? No I know that substances that have a higher molecular weight of 500 daltons can travel through the skin barrier via the hair follicle, I mean shaft
If you want to make a specific point with some reference, why dont you quote the exact piece? Im not gonna just read everything you throw at me, Im lazy :)

 

[Arrade]

@Arrade I could say something about how it amazes me that you try so hard to argue about small irrelevant things but I wont.

Yes you're

lazy :)

It pisses me the **** off when you're wrong and not only don't admit you're wrong, but double down and make yourself incorrect multiple times.
While saying I'm wrong

 

[Arrade]

Am I ignorant? No I know that substances that have a higher molecular weight of 500 daltons can travel through the skin barrier via the hair follicle, I mean shaft
If you want to make a specific point with some reference, why dont you quote the exact piece? Im not gonna just read everything you throw at me, Im lazy :)

at a minimum just read the title of the studies I post, takes about 4 seconds a pop

 

[Arrade]

:P

Wow you can't time stamp?
4:23

 

[Hairfedup]

The androgenic effect of ketoconazol in low dosage in shampoo are very weak, they have no practical effect.

Thanks man, good to know. I mean if even as something as volatile as cyclosporine [topical] has no systematic effect, I guess Ket can do no harm.

 

[CLASH]

@Soren
Don’t know too much about it. I’d go for a systemic approach before I did anything topical. I personally use a systemic approach with only topical scalp massages

 

[LCohen]

Oral ketoconazole is silly. But it can be helpful.

• It decreases cortisol
• It decreases aldosterone
• It decreases DHEA-S (DHEA-S is increased in balding scalp)
• It inhibits adrenal androgens

Androgens coming from adrenals are associated with baldness as far as I remember. Decreasing cortisol and aldosterone slows down fibrosis. (Maybe reverse it?)

The study shows that it can even increase progesterone.

Steroid synthesis inhibition by ketoconazole: sites of action. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[ExD]

@Arrade I could say something about how it amazes me that you try so hard to argue about small irrelevant things but I wont.

it's ok to be wrong

 

[General Orange]

Anyone consider injection apple cider vinegar into the scalp via a 22 gauge needle or something similar?

Yeah why not, lets go dissolve that calcium phosphate! lol

 

[General Orange]

Oral ketoconazole is silly. But it can be helpful.

• It decreases cortisol
• It decreases aldosterone
• It decreases DHEA-S (DHEA-S is increased in balding scalp)
• It inhibits adrenal androgens

Androgens coming from adrenals are associated with baldness as far as I remember. Decreasing cortisol and aldosterone slows down fibrosis. (Maybe reverse it?)

The study shows that it can even increase progesterone.

Steroid synthesis inhibition by ketoconazole: sites of action. - PubMed - NCBI

Damn, now Im reconsidering this ketakonoshizzle

 

[General Orange]

Damn, now Im reconsidering this ketakonoshizzle

Oh no I take it back, I was delirious there for a minute.

 

[General Orange]

You are completely wrong and are using erroneous syntax of the work estrogenic. Estrogenic implies pro-estrogen effects.
English is my native language and I have been published in literature as well as tested out of college english while in high school through advanced tests. I placed in the top 1% percentile for understanding of the English language and my writing ability while in school. I also read the most books in grade school for district scored by me taking computer exams to test my comprehension of books.

Yeah I was could ve better written anti-androgenic, sorry about that.
I guess when I read a lot of studies about estrogenic herbs, they write about estrogenic effects in general and only later they define it is anti or pro estrogenic depending on agonism or antagonism. Same cliff hangers there.

You sound like are a smart guy with great memory. Whish I had better mnemonic abilities.

I still think that ketoconazol, that has a molecular weight of 531.431 g/mol, does not penetrate through the skin barrier. Does travel down the skin via hair root. And as the hairs are dispersed and the density is relatively low plus the dosage of such creams are low, very little comes through. Unless one has deeper wound. And as it has multiple binding sites the chance of anti-androgens effect is even lower I guess.

Now Im trying to figure out what is has a higher affinity for, the anti-cortisol or anti-androgen coz I wanna use it topically, hmm

 

[Arrade]

Yeah I was could ve better written anti-androgenic, sorry about that.
I guess when I read a lot of studies about estrogenic herbs, they write about estrogenic effects in general and only later they define it is anti or pro estrogenic depending on agonism or antagonism. Same cliff hangers there.

You sound like are a smart guy with great memory. Whish I had better mnemonic abilities.

I still think that ketoconazol, that has a molecular weight of 531.431 g/mol, does not penetrate through the skin barrier. Does travel down the skin via hair root. And as the hairs are dispersed and the density is relatively low plus the dosage of such creams are low, very little comes through. Unless one has deeper wound. And as it has multiple binding sites the chance of anti-androgens effect is even lower I guess.

Now Im trying to figure out what is has a higher affinity for, the anti-cortisol or anti-androgen coz I wanna use it topically, hmm

You're probably aware of the 500 dalton rule, perhaps with hot/steamy conditions 531 g/mol is light enough to pass through the skin?

 

[General Orange]

Looks like it is too big molecule and not soluble enough to penetrate effectively when I look at this patent:
US20040063722A1
Antifungal ketoconazole composition for topical use

• Ketoconazole, however, has very poor solubility characteristics in common solvents such as water and alcohols. For topical use it is only available commercially at a concentration of 2 wt % in suspension in a semi-solid aqueous cream and in a shampoo for application to the scalp.
• [0006]
  Both of these commercial formulations have disadvantages. The cream provides poor bioavailability of ketoconazole as the discrete particles thereof do not permeate very efficiently into the skin. In addition, the cream is not suitable for application to the hair bearing areas of the body, particularly the scalp. The cream is difficult to apply and localise over the affected area and is also cosmetically unacceptable if left on the skin for any length of time as it leaves a greasy deposit.
• [0007]
  The shampoo is designed to be left on the scalp for only very short periods which therefore does not provide the extended contact time necessary to maintain a therapeutically adequate concentration on the scalp. It is also difficult to get the active drug to the scalp if the shampoo is not massaged in correctly. Furthermore shampoos tend to contain anionic surfactants which may hinder the drug permeating through the skin and may also irritate the skin. ...