The Key to Stopping Hiccups - CO2 Retention!

[yerrag]

I have been suffering from hiccups since February, and I am glad to see this study. It comes much closer to explaining hiccups in terms of something we are well familiar with, carbon dioxide. Although it can go deeper into explaining why, I am satisfied with it as it is easier for us in this forum to build on it.

Rather than be Nike " just do it" about it with old wives' tales on how to fix the hiccup, we can approach the hiccup issue with a Ray Peat-based foundation.

Abstract​

Background​

While investigating the mechanisms behind hiccups, our team discovered what could be the sufficient physiological conditions for terminating even persistent cases.

Methods​

To investigate the role of CO2 retention, a healthy male volunteer was asked to perform three kinds of rebreathing experiments using different materials: (I) a 20 L air-filled plastic bag, (II) a 20 L air-filled plastic bag with a 1.5 × 1.5 cm hole and (III) a 20 L oxygen-filled plastic bag. During each experiment, CO2 level upon expiration (EtCO2) and inspiration (InspCO2) were
measured until the volunteer gave up. Once the safety of this manoeuvre was demonstrated with the volunteer, we performed the technique using the materials from experiment (I) on two actual patients with persistent hiccups.

Results​

In experiments (I) and (III), InspCO2 increased from the beginning and reached almost the same level as EtCO2 after 90 seconds. Both levels continued simultaneously increasing, finally reaching 56 mm Hg in (I) and 79 mm Hg in (III), respectively. In (II), both increased; however, after 120 seconds, EtCO2 plateaued at 47 mm Hg and InspCO2 at 37 mm Hg. In the actual patients, both CO2 levels reached the same value of 35.9 mm Hg at 60 seconds and 37.0 mm Hg at 90 seconds, and hiccups stopped at 195 seconds and at 359 seconds when EtCO2 reached 50 mm Hg and 53 mm Hg, respectively.

Conclusion​

The study determined that to successfully obstruct the mechanisms causing hiccups, it is necessary that the level of InspCO2 not only increases at the same level as EtCO2, but also reaches approximately 50 mm Hg.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/crj.12910

 

[TheSir]

Hiccups are thought to be spasms of the diaphragm. Well, what do you know, co2 relaxes muscles and inhibits spasming. I always found breath holds to be a good way to stop a hiccup episode.

 

[GTW]

Is the long-standing remedy, breathing into a paper bag, rediscovered?

 

[Kray]

I have been suffering from hiccups since February, and I am glad to see this study. It comes much closer to explaining hiccups in terms of something we are well familiar with, carbon dioxide. Although it can go deeper into explaining why, I am satisfied with it as it is easier for us in this forum to build on it.

Rather than be Nike " just do it" about it with old wives' tales on how to fix the hiccup, we can approach the hiccup issue with a Ray Peat-based foundation.

Abstract​

Background​

While investigating the mechanisms behind hiccups, our team discovered what could be the sufficient physiological conditions for terminating even persistent cases.

Methods​

To investigate the role of CO2 retention, a healthy male volunteer was asked to perform three kinds of rebreathing experiments using different materials: (I) a 20 L air-filled plastic bag, (II) a 20 L air-filled plastic bag with a 1.5 × 1.5 cm hole and (III) a 20 L oxygen-filled plastic bag. During each experiment, CO2 level upon expiration (EtCO2) and inspiration (InspCO2) were
measured until the volunteer gave up. Once the safety of this manoeuvre was demonstrated with the volunteer, we performed the technique using the materials from experiment (I) on two actual patients with persistent hiccups.

Results​

In experiments (I) and (III), InspCO2 increased from the beginning and reached almost the same level as EtCO2 after 90 seconds. Both levels continued simultaneously increasing, finally reaching 56 mm Hg in (I) and 79 mm Hg in (III), respectively. In (II), both increased; however, after 120 seconds, EtCO2 plateaued at 47 mm Hg and InspCO2 at 37 mm Hg. In the actual patients, both CO2 levels reached the same value of 35.9 mm Hg at 60 seconds and 37.0 mm Hg at 90 seconds, and hiccups stopped at 195 seconds and at 359 seconds when EtCO2 reached 50 mm Hg and 53 mm Hg, respectively.

Conclusion​

The study determined that to successfully obstruct the mechanisms causing hiccups, it is necessary that the level of InspCO2 not only increases at the same level as EtCO2, but also reaches approximately 50 mm Hg.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/crj.12910

“The rebreathing [methods]…were measured until the volunteer gave up”. Why does that sound so funny?! In non-medical plain-speak, the volunteer exhaled continuously until he passed out. . Would you agree?

 

[GTW]

“The rebreathing [methods]…were measured until the volunteer gave up”. Why does that sound so funny?! In non-medical plain-speak, the volunteer exhaled continuously until he passed out. . Would you agree?

Rapid increase in blood CO2 is respiratory irritant. Not so slower, it's sedative. Apollo 13 astronauts reached over 12%.

 

[yerrag]

Hiccups are thought to be spasms of the diaphragm. Well, what do you know, co2 relaxes muscles and inhibits spasming. I always found breath holds to be a good way to stop a hiccup episode.

The breath holds are a great idea. But there is a gotcha. I am currently dealing with acute bronchitis, but given that I'm been in this situation for at least 3 months, it may become chronic.

With healthy lungs, holding the breath has worked for me in the past. Because of the thicker mucus film that covers the alveoli in the bronchi, gas exchange is harder to do.

Not only that, but I'm finding out that the mucus film hinders oxygen intake more than it does CO2 exhaust from the lungs. My guess is that the film acts like a check valve (but not strictly as it still allows two way movement) as it gives way to CO² exhaust more readily than it allows O² intake. So breathing with bronchitis would be more labored not so much poor external respiration (O² intake and CO² exhaust in alveoli in the lungs) but as much as poor internal respiration (tissue oxygenation from having enough CO² to allow O² to be released by hemoglobin in red blood cells).

So when I do a breath hold in my current condition, I do not increase my serum CO² content enough for my brain to halt the signal to hiccup. As after the breath hold, I exhale and inhale deeply, but I exhale more CO² than I take in O² such that my serum CO² as a result isn't significantly increased.

Is the long-standing remedy, breathing into a paper bag, rediscovered?

I tried the paper bag method, but it didn't work.

Using a plastic bag large enough to cover my head and neck, with the bag sealed around the neck, ensures no leakage of CO², as it is crucial to build up the CO² fraction enough so that the hiccup stops.

This method is less safe to do, or appears to be so, and some supervision is needed. Assassins can use a mod of this method and the outcome would be different ;-)

 

[yerrag]

“The rebreathing [methods]…were measured until the volunteer gave up”. Why does that sound so funny?! In non-medical plain-speak, the volunteer exhaled continuously until he passed out. . Would you agree?

He didn't really pass out. He quit when it reached a point he could not tolerate. I think it feels just like when we hold our breath and give up at a certain point. But they had to test their method on someone who isn't a sick patient first, and can follow directions, to develop a protocol they cN use on patients.

 

[GTW]

The rate at which CO2 increases is a critical variable.

 

[yerrag]

The rate at which CO2 increases is a critical variable.

Definitely.

 

[yerrag]

I used my carbogen machine yesterday set at 10% and had two 1hr sessions. I continue to hiccup but the strength of the hiccup became very weak. I wasn't satisfied, and wanted to do a third session, but alas, my forgetfulness got the best of me. I left the valve from the CO2 tank on, and in a few hours my tank became empty.

But because my serum CO2 had increased, I had the first good sleep in days, although I dare not sleep vertically, as I slept in a rocking chair. I was afraid sleeping vertically would bring back the hiccups to full force.

Nevertheless, I used the setback as an opportunity to try the 'assassin' method of eliminating hiccups. Here is a plastic bag I fashioned to use to plastic bag breath:

 

[yerrag]

I got to making the plastic bag apparatus before I got to one that gives a fairly good seal so that the gas done not escape as much.

Yesterday, after two more tries (the first one is the one pictured in the last post), I got to make a working plastic bag for rebreathing exhaled CO2. It isn't perfect, because I still could not get a seal tight enough to prevent leaks (or that there could be punctures in the plastic as a result of my use of a butane-powered soldering gun tip to act as a plastic sealer). Notwithstanding, I went ahead with doing carbon dioxide rebreathing with the apparatus.

I wrapped the plastic bag around my head and secured the seal by tightening the seal around my neck, and snuck a plastic tubing connected to an air pump to fill the apparatus with air. After a 1 minute, I couldn't get the apparatus to inflate like a balloon, as I figured out that leaks still exist. So, I kept the plastic tubing in to let air in continuously from the air pump, as I began my stopwatch. I breathed in and out of that apparatus for 3 minutes, and stopped.

I have to say it was a claustrophobic experience, not different from when I went to my first scuba diving lesson. Breathing was different from normal, and I felt like aborting the procedure. But what kept me doing was knowing it had been done before, and I could keep holding on for 3 minutes, which was one of the two durations mentioned in the study. The other duration was 6 minutes.

After I stopped, I had to take some time breathing in and out as my lungs adjusted and normalized. After some time had elapsed, I was deflated because my hiccups still continued, which likely meant the 3 minutes I spend rebreathing wasn't enough to raise my PaCO2 to 50mm Hg pressure, the threshold needed to eliminate hiccups. Still, I get solace from the fact that this is my first stab at this, and that I could improve my apparatus in terms of further minimizing leakage.

I woke up the next day with better revelations. First, I slept very well. The night before, I had difficulty sleeping as I had no benefit of using carbogen therapy (unlike two nights before when I had 2 1hr sessions of breathing 10% carbogen). This only meant that my experiment succeeded in raising CO2 levels in serum enough so that I got good sleep. I figure the raised CO2 lowered serotonin as the CO2 enabled platelets to carry serotonin to the lungs, where the serotonin is deactivated.

I checked my blood pressure, and compared to yesterday morning, my wake up bp was 170/118 - a big change from 214/144. This I reckon to be the vasodilating effect of having enough CO2. I also saw my heart rate go down from 105 to 88, which I take to mean the heart isn't straining to pump blood because there is enough energy to drive the pumping, with the improved oxygenation from having sufficient serum CO2 allowing for that.

Then I checked my ECG, and was elated to see that my QRS curve had gone back to being normal, which is high compared to the very short height it had been since I began having bronchitis/ALS/Parkinson's/Meniere's issues. To me, it is confirmation how much all these issues relate to an energy deficit issue rooted in low CO2 that came from the really poor gas exchange in the alveoli as a result of mucus membrane irritation that caused mucus to restrict gas exchange (irritation coming from exposure to cinnamon bark oil).

I will refine this apparatus and continue to use this as part of my recovery (as I am seeing that my CO2 is quickly consumed and not replenished given my current lung condition - as I write, I am already having my hiccups get worse and this keeps interrupting my ability to speak continuously) . It is not easy to use, but it is very effective. It only take a few minutes to do what at least 2 hours of 10% of carbogen breathing can do. It doesn't cost much to make, but some patience to get it to work flawlessly. Whereas the carbogen machine I use has been discontinued. But certainly, it leaves me more convinced that breathing in carbon dioxide as carbogen (rebreathing is breathing carbogen) fills a space in healing that bicarbonate and soda water does not.

Note: This apparatus is not for everybody. Some may freak out using it and easily abort. It makes one claustrophobic and one needs calm nerves to use it. I have to wonder whether a Frolov device can be as effective but without the stressful aspect of it. I have to read up on the link that @Sila sent me: Unlimited Oxygen Intake Is Crucial But Taken For Granted Until Your Lungs No Longer Provide It

 

[yerrag]

I got to use the plastic bag breather 3 times only. Each time for 3 minutes, and it felt more like torture to me each time. I could never get used to it.

It may be that I currently have bronchitis, and that using the plastic bag breather may be contraindicated for people with bronchitis, given that the condition restricts gas exchange in the lungs.

So I'm glad that I could fall back on using a carbogen machine to improve my serum CO2 content. My hiccups have stopped as the use of the carbogen machine has raised my serum CO2 levels enough so that the hiccups have stopped.

I also took 1 tsp baking soda (in drinking water throughout the day) and 6 glasses of carbonated water, which I make everyday using a carbonator. These probably helped me erase the CO2 deficit I had as well. These, on top of 2 hourly sessions where I breathe in 10% carbogen.

I reckon the 2 carbogen sessions gave me 10g of CO2, while the 6 glasses of soda water about 4.5g of CO2, though I can't tell if the CO2 in soda water would end up as serum CO2.

These values are a pittance compared to what Google indicates as a typical daily output of CO2 from our body metabolizing and exhaling CO2, which rounds up to 1 kg. But don't hold me to this value, as I only made a casual inquiry out of curiosity. If we actually produce that much CO2 to exhale it all away, it seems comical that I am doing a lot of work just to get around 15g of CO2 into my blood, to get real benefits of CO² thru breathing carbogen and drinking aoda water.