Severely dry skin from Vitex/Calcium D glucarate

[June]

Ok in a desperate attempt to lower my prolactin and estrogen, I ended up with dry skin and hair. I notice with Vitex it caused either dopamine or adrenaline surges at high dose. Along with the Calcium D glucarate I noticed my hair was starting to sound like straw when I tried to tie it up. My mouth also became uncomfortably dry and water was no help. What happened? Did I lower estrogen too much? Is it high cortisol? I read many menopause forums where they say estrogen keeps the skin supple. If that's the case, then do we all experience dry skin here on the ray peat forum? Is it progesterone that keeps the moisture in skin?

I wonder if I have low estrogen with even lower progesterone for a female.

Estradiol 131 pmol/L
Estradiol adult female reference intervals------------------------------------------Follicular: 77-921 pmol/LMid-cycle: 139-2382 pmol/LLuteal: 77-1145 pmol/LPost-menopausal: <103 pmol/L
Progesterone <0.6 nmol/L
Progesterone adult female reference intervals---------------------------------------------Follicular: <1.7 nmol/LLuteal: 4.0-50.0 nmol/LPost-menopausal: <0.7 nmol/LEffective Oct 24, 2022 this test is performed ona new analyzer. Results are equivalent, andreference intervals are unchanged except forpost-menopausal stage.

Prolactin 24.8 5.0-27.0 ug/LReproductive and Gonadal

Dehydroepiandrosterone [DHEA-S] 4.4 < 9.8 umol/L
Testosterone <0.4 < 1.8 nmol/LReference interval applies to AM collections.Total Testosterone levels may not reflect thebiologically-active testosterone when SHBG levelsare abnormal.

 

[mostlylurking]

Ok in a desperate attempt to lower my prolactin and estrogen, I ended up with dry skin and hair. I notice with Vitex it caused either dopamine or adrenaline surges at high dose. Along with the Calcium D glucarate I noticed my hair was starting to sound like straw when I tried to tie it up. My mouth also became uncomfortably dry and water was no help. What happened? Did I lower estrogen too much? Is it high cortisol? I read many menopause forums where they say estrogen keeps the skin supple. If that's the case, then do we all experience dry skin here on the ray peat forum? Is it progesterone that keeps the moisture in skin?

I wonder if I have low estrogen with even lower progesterone for a female.

Estradiol 131 pmol/L
Estradiol adult female reference intervals------------------------------------------Follicular: 77-921 pmol/LMid-cycle: 139-2382 pmol/LLuteal: 77-1145 pmol/LPost-menopausal: <103 pmol/L
Progesterone <0.6 nmol/L
Progesterone adult female reference intervals---------------------------------------------Follicular: <1.7 nmol/LLuteal: 4.0-50.0 nmol/LPost-menopausal: <0.7 nmol/LEffective Oct 24, 2022 this test is performed ona new analyzer. Results are equivalent, andreference intervals are unchanged except forpost-menopausal stage.

Prolactin 24.8 5.0-27.0 ug/LReproductive and Gonadal

Dehydroepiandrosterone [DHEA-S] 4.4 < 9.8 umol/L
Testosterone <0.4 < 1.8 nmol/LReference interval applies to AM collections.Total Testosterone levels may not reflect thebiologically-active testosterone when SHBG levelsare abnormal.

So are these your test results?
131 pmol/L Estradiol
<0.6 nmol/L Progesterone
I think if you make them both the same measurement type it might be easier to understand it.

Convert nmol to pmol - Conversion of Measurement Units

Do a quick conversion: 1 nanomoles = 1000 picomoles using the online calculator for metric conversions. Check the chart for more details.

www.convertunits.com

131 pmol/L = .131 nmol/L Estradiol
to <.6 nmol/L progesterone
I remember Ray Peat saying ideally, progesterone should be 100 times the amount of estrogen, except for a few hours every month if you are still cycling. If that's right, then 100 X .131 (Estradiol) = 13.1 nmol/L ideal progesterone level for your Estradiol vs <.6 progesterone which is what your test shows. Assuming I'm doing the math right and Estradiol is the only estrogen you have in your body which of course isn't true.

go here: bioenergetic search search for "100 times", a couple of discussions show where Peat is explaining the need of 50-100 times more progesterone than estrogen to get pregnant.
This one:

kmud-170721-language-criticism-estrogen-part2​

00:18:23.600
I think that's a good description. It stimulates cell division during a period of about 12 hours, once a month, it surges and dominates and is concentrated in the pituitary, the breasts, and the uterus. And it prepares those for pregnancy by creating a wave of cell division. But the function of progesterone is to come in at 100 times the concentration or even higher to knock out, destroy the progesterone or the estrogen binding chemical to destroy the influence of estrogen so that the cells stop dividing and start maturing.
-end paste-

I'm 73, on the far side of menopause. I supplement with progesterone, around 35-40mg/day and also with some pregnenolone. I also take a little biotin which I think helps the skin and hair. I just use coconut oil on my face and a little on the hair ends after I blow dry it. My skin and hair are in very good shape.

It seems to me that estrogen and prolactin are tied together somehow since people seem to rely on prolactin levels to tell them what level their estrogen is.

go here: bioenergetic search, search for "vitex".
this one:

kmud-190517-pollution​

00:35:56.680
herbs are actually not doing what they should be doing because we all recognize now that progesterone is really what you need. Some of the herbs are anti-prolactin rather than specifically anti-estrogen. Right, that would be Vitex perhaps. So that can be very protective and the official concept of what's estrogenic is what sticks to the so-called estrogen receptor but the estrogen receptor, even in the total absence of estrogen, if you injure the cell or cut off the oxygen supply, the estrogen receptor...

 

[June]

Thank you so much! I will definitely read up more on this. Due to my lack of understanding, I have fears. I fear that taking progesterone would lower my estrogen too much, since I am female. I'm not sure if I ovulate but I do have LH surges. I won't want it to lower it too much where I could potentially experience menopause low estrogen symptoms. Are my estrogen levels even ideal? Or is it high, not comparing to progesterone ratio? Unless it's only the ratio that matters. Also another fear is, if my estrogen is considered high then couldn't progesterone cause my estrogen symptoms to exacerbate while I'm trying to raise it? I feel this could be dangerous for me since I have non-stop bleeding issues (sorry realized I posted my bleeding situation in another thread). I don't want it to kick up estrogen and I have no backup system to help me in such a situation. Then again, nothing has helped stop my bleeding till now, except temporary acupuncture. I was thinking of using high dose Natpro. So what is keeping my bleeding from stopping. Prolactin not dropping..or estrogen constantly stimulating my uterine lining?

Is your calculation for my progesterone to estrogen too high? I've seen progesterone should be around 1 nmol/L?

I just read how progesterone can turn into estrogen. I wonder how much truth there is to this...

Appears Vitex did help with prolactin momentarily while simultaneously causing me cortisol increase. But I didn't take into account Vitex could be estrogenic also. I set myself back a bit then.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thank you so much! I will definitely read up more on this. Due to my lack of understanding, I have fears. I fear that taking progesterone would lower my estrogen too much, since I am female. I'm not sure if I ovulate but I do have LH surges. I won't want it to lower it too much where I could potentially experience menopause low estrogen symptoms. Are my estrogen levels even ideal? Or is it high, not comparing to progesterone ratio? Unless it's only the ratio that matters. Also another fear is, if my estrogen is considered high then couldn't progesterone cause my estrogen symptoms to exacerbate while I'm trying to raise it? I feel this could be dangerous for me since I have non-stop bleeding issues (sorry realized I posted my bleeding situation in another thread). I don't want it to kick up estrogen and I have no backup system to help me in such a situation. Then again, nothing has helped stop my bleeding till now, except temporary acupuncture. I was thinking of using high dose Natpro. So what is keeping my bleeding from stopping. Prolactin not dropping..or estrogen constantly stimulating my uterine lining?

You're welcome. It's very important to educate yourself on progesterone/estrogen since the medical industry either doesn't have a clue or they are just plain evil. You are your own last line of defense. I don't think you can lower your estrogen too much. If you are still sort of cycling (peri-menopausal) then you will probably want to follow the instructions for cycling women where you take progesterone for 20days(?) and then lay off of it for a week (?) 7-10 days(?) in order for you to continue to cycle which would be a good thing if possible. However, if you are bleeding out like a stuck pig (like I did) then I think it is also fine/safe to take progesterone daily for a while (several months?) in order for you to get back to normal instead of being talked into having a hysterectomy.

Menopause is the cessation of progesterone production. Without the progesterone, the estrogen goes very high and causes severe problems. Estrogen does not go down at menopause; it goes up.

Taking progesterone can fleetingly increase estrogen in circulation because it "pushes estrogen out of the cells" and into circulation. But this doesn't last long so long as your liver is working well and you aren't constipated. The liver detoxes estrogen, it goes out via the colon, but can get reabsorbed if you're constipated. So things that support the liver, including thiamine and magnesium, are helpful. Other B vitamins are helpful too. And carrot salad!! Progesterone will help with the excessive bleeding by lowering the estrogen. I think prolactin will come down too as your body gets back to a more normal state.

The last time I had my estrogen levels checked they were nonexistent (almost zero) and I felt just fine. The doctor sort of wigged out but I was fine with it because my progesterone level was 100 times higher than my estrogen which was my goal. I was strongly estrogen dominant for many years from a tubal ligation I had when I was 28. Peri-menopause was a nightmare, then menopause happened when I was 50. I've been taking progesterone for almost 9 years and I am doing very well on it.

Suggested listening (multiple times were needed for me):

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

Is your calculation for my progesterone to estrogen too high? I've seen progesterone should be around 1 nmol/L?

Ray Peat has said progesterone should be 100 times more than estrogen. Estrogen is inflammatory and carcinogenic. Progesterone (bio-identical) is anti-inflammatory and anti-carcinogenic. Peat has said that the only positive purpose of estrogen is to inflame the uterus for implantation. Unless you're trying to get pregnant, there is really no need for estrogen. Every cell in your body can make estrogen. Inflammation begets estrogen and estrogen begets inflammation. You get exposed to estrogens/estrogenic substances everyday: polyunsaturated fats, phytoestrogens, many pollutants.

I just read how progesterone can turn into estrogen. I wonder how much truth there is to this...

Synthetic pharmaceutical progestins are estrogenic; bio-identical progesterone is not. The Powers that Be have declared that bio-identical progesterone must be classified/grouped with the synthetic progestins so that the Estrogen Industry can confuse everyone into thinking bio-identical progesterone is carcinogenic and estrogen is good for you. Neither of these things are true.

Appears Vitex did help with prolactin momentarily while simultaneously causing me cortisol increase. But I didn't take into account Vitex could be estrogenic also. I set myself back a bit then.

Probably. I wouldn't take Vitex myself.

Suggested reading:

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Progesterone, not estrogen, is the coronary protection factor of women.

Progesterone, not estrogen, is the coronary protection factor of women.

raypeat.com

Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Aging, estrogen, and progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

RU486, cancer, estrogen, and progesterone.

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Estrogen, progesterone, and cancer: Conflicts of interest in regulation and product promotion.

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

p.s. I found that I had an easier time reading Peat's articles if I copied/pasted them into a Word document that I had formatted to have 2 columns. I'd print them out and underline/highlight, make notes to myself in the margins. Just like in high school. I also burned CDs of the audio shows and listened to each of them many times, mainly in my car.