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How To Get Ripped While Peating

Discussion in 'Ask For Help or Advice' started by Pieter, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. Pieter

    Pieter Member

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    Is there any guys on this forum worried about looking shredded and if so how the heck are you doing it. Ive picked up 13kg in 3months following the guidelines on this forum. I looked good while doing IF and Keto but it tanked my health. Now my health and hormones are better but ive got me a dad bod as they say haha :thumbdown:FB_IMG_1529824967303.jpg
    Before and After
    IMG_20180624_090440.jpg :nocomment

    This morning I weighed in at 90kg.

    Today is my first day of getting my body back in shape.
    It started like this:
    1 X carrot and 1 heaped tsp of coconut oil.
    Black coffee with one heaped tsp gelatin.

    Supplements I took:
    Magnesium chloride 120mg
    P5P 50mg
    Ashwhaghanda 500mg
    Opti MSM 2000mg

    Gonna make my first big meal of the day much later.
    Wanna keep insulin, prolactin, cortisol, serotonin and endotoxin as low as possible while burning up my body fat stores.:hairpull
     
  2. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    What is your new strategy, and where do you think you went wrong before?

    Too many calories or did your choice of foods make you feel fatigued?
     
  3. OP
    Pieter

    Pieter Member

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    I have less energy on sugar and carbs but I was running on stress hormones previously. My body must be insulin resistant or im low on co-factors for sugar metabolism. So my strategy is to spike metabolism without stressing the body with the low calorie intake for the first part of my day almost like a Peat adapted IF strategy. Will take another 2grams of MSM after my first carb meal and also take some Niacinamide.
     
  4. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    About how many calories were you eating each day when you were intermittent fasting and muscular? How many were protein calories and how many were fat calories? Your lean body probably burned a lot of energy!

    Did you find eating one meal a day made it easy to build muscle? (although it may been unhealthy overall).

    How many calories have you been eating to get the “dad bod”? How many were protein and fat?

    I wonder if having OJ in the morning but all of your fat and protein in one meal later in the day may offer the best of both worlds?
     
  5. OP
    Pieter

    Pieter Member

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    Ive never counted calories...IF and Keto just melted away the fat. Ive very bad bloodsugar regulation and I dont feel hunger in the mornings so IF seemed to make sense.
     
  6. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    Well a Peat version of keto would include coconut oil, butter and chocolate as these are high in saturated fat and low in PUFA.

    It will be interesting to hear if you can get back the fit body without tanking your health!

    Keep us updated!
     
  7. SolRosenberg

    SolRosenberg Member

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    If it were me I’d first get my TDEE from 3 or 4 online calculators, then figure an average between them, the start counting calories at a 500 deficit until you get back closer to the weight you want. I would concentrate consumption of high glycemic carbs to first thing in the morning, with decreasing glycemic index score as the day goes on. This is going to be especially true on your workout days to try to keep the carb intake as long as you can after your gym session. Would also do a 2 days per week whole body workout focusing on fascia expansion later on (high reps, low weight). I wouldn’t fall into the pattern of trying to work out lifting heavier weight just focus on keeping tension on the muscle you’re working during each lift (don’t lock the weight out or lower it all the way down so you can keep tension on the muscle during the entire set of reps). And I would start walking 30-40 minutes on all non lifting days. Keep your heart rate 55 to 60% of your max heart rate. Since you had success with IF then I would try to do your cardio and a fasted state. A lot of people like to do HIIT but if you’re in a fasted state there’s no need to have to do HIIT... however if your cardio is going to be towards the end of the day and you’ve eaten that day you may have to jack up the intensity towards the 80-90% of your max heart rate for several minutes to mobilize fatty acids (which will be oxidation during your low intensity cardio) and then start your 20 or 30 minute walking session.

    Good luck man!
     
  8. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    Weight Loss, KMUD Herb Doctors, 2013

    How are your body temperature and pulse?
    Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse
    Temperature and Pulse Basics & Monthly Log


    I think with breakfast you want to try to get the blood sugar back up, I think the coffee and coconut oil with out sufficient sugar would elevate free fatty acids
    Coffee Done Right – Tips to Help Avoid Coffee Intolerance
    Low Blood Sugar Basics

    50mg of P5P seems to be a pretty high dose, have you been using that much for awhile? 5mg or even less might be better for that version of b6

    I'm not sure how beneficial the Ashw. and MSM really are, have you checked out this interview?

    If you're getting a lot of food cravings it could be for salt, salting the carrot salad, salty broth, salty well cooked mushrooms, salty red meat (not to much due to high phosphate), and baking soda(useful before workouts) are some good ways. Ive found that a lot of times my food cravings are just salt cravings

    A lot of times in Keto diets the amount of phosphate is really high and the amount of calcium is really low so you might want to try to get a 1:1 calcium:phosphate ratio or higher
    "
    RP: We are a very tough organism compared to rats, for example. We can stand a tremendous stress that other animals could not stand for many reasons. Our high metabolic rate and a big brain, powerful glandular system, give us a great adaptive ability. You can see in areas which have lived for many generations on a certain type of diet, that their health shows that objectively that their diet isn’t good or that their diet is missing something.

    Q: What would be a good example of that?

    A: Some of the nearly vegetarian villages in Africa in South America and Africa, people are very badly and are dying off by the time they are 40 of infectious diseases. The explorer who, about 80 years ago, who was studying the diet of the eskimos, they observed that they could avoid scurvy by eating an entirely meat diet, and he popularized the idea that you don’t need fruits and vegetables, because meat is a good source of Vitamin C. But he himself observed that the people eating that traditional high meat diet, eskimos, looked very prematurely aged, and in the last 2-3 years that is being explained as phosphate poisoning. The ratio of phosphate to calcium, when it’s too high, accelerates degeneration.

    Q: How do you get too high phosphate?

    RP: A pure grain diet or pure meat diet, either one. Vegetarians or meat eaters, causing the same kind of inflammatory toxic reaction.

    Q: SO most people should look at if they are going to eat meat, to also do some grains?

    RP: No the grains are just as bad as the meat as a phosphate source. The ruminants who live on leaves by preference, they have an extremely high ratio of magnesium and calcium to phosphorous, and so their milk is pretty safe ratio, about 1 and one-third calcium per phosphate. But vegetarians who either eat a lot of fruit or who cook their greens, there are some diets up in the high altitude areas of Asia and South America, there have been people who eat lots of cooked greens, as well as sheep or goats cheese and milk, that’s a very longevity supporting diet."
    Health And Diet - One Radio Network 4 Dec 2013

    “Free unsaturated fatty acids turn on the stress hormones, and cortisol blocks oxidation of sugar and turns it into fatty acids and triglycerides. Keeping cortisol and stress low is the main thing. Keeping a high ratio of calcium to phosphate helps to oppose the stress metabolism.”

    “Recent publication are showing that excess phosphate can increase inflammation, tissue atrophy, calcification of blood vessels, cancer, dementia, and, in general, the processes of aging.”
    Calcium to Phosphorus Ratio, PTH, and Bone Health – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

    Dairy, Calcium, and Weight Management in Adults and Children

    The fat soluble vitamins and thiamine might be a good idea for a lot of reasons but they also help increase and retain CO2:
    Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Therapy Reduces Belly Fat In Humans
    Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia

    For workouts I think you should try to keep them brief, 30 mins or less. Sugar (oj, etc), baking soda, and b-vitamins (b1,b2,b6) before and getting sugar after would help prevent the drop in t3 caused by exercise and oppose the antimetabolic stress.
    Strategies for athletes following a Ray Peat inspired diet
     
  9. Lurker

    Lurker Member

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    I can relate to this. I was 30 lbs lighter doing paleo low carb, IF, bulletproof coffee, under eating etc. It was all so easy until I ran myself into the ground. I have a few issues to deal with before my weight becomes a priority again. The only good news is I wear the weight better than I ever did before.

    Did you check the previous huge threads on getting ripped with Peat?
     
  10. ilikecats

    ilikecats Member

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    @Pieter the only way out is through now.... someone in this thread recommended a 500 caloric deficit that would just make you go hypothyroid again. Following peats ideas further (keeping the calcium to phosphate ratio High, getting vitamin d levels in the ideal range etc...) and doing some strength training are the only valid methods imho.
     
  11. cyclops

    cyclops Member

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    Holy Guacamole! Those pics make me wonder what I'm doing with my life. You looked fricken PHENOMENAL before when doing Keto and IF! It would be hard to believe that change in body composition is completely better for your health and that your hormones are actually in a better state now. Going off now to rethink this whole Peat diet thing ha...

    Really hope you can make a new diet work for you that can give you the best of both worlds of health and leanness though.
     
  12. Luckytype

    Luckytype Member

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    Assuming your metabolism is fine from a cellular perspective and youre feeding on a regular basis a slight caloric deficit as a test run should be fine.

    You have to keep in mind that any deficit after a period of time will be your new baseline if you stay there so its probably in your best interest to get an idea of your 02 consumption via your temps and then start on maybe 200-250 kcal deficit first to gauge it. Thats probably going to equate to 1/2 lb or roughly .25kg per week. If temps begin to suffer or the inability to sleep develops I would reevaluate.

    I would be equally concerned with how you put on 13kg in just 3 months..
     
  13. SolRosenberg

    SolRosenberg Member

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    This is not at all likely with him just getting started. Not even a large percentage of obese subjects running at 500 deficit will go hypothyroid. There is research demonstrating soldiers fed a drastically reduced calorie diet do not experience shutdown until many weeks into the study. Very very few people go hypothyroid prior to hitting deficit shutdown, and this is never in absence of preexisting thyroid disease. Either way this is not a “right around the corner” risk for him. He can easily get started at 500 deficit as long as he doesn’t go overboard on cardio intensity.
     
  14. ilikecats

    ilikecats Member

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    @SolRosenberg have you read Ray Peats work? I wasn’t aware the thyroid had an on off switch lol. Thyroid hormone production is constantly fluctuating throughout the day based on a multitude of factors. What test did they use to measure these people’s thyroid function? TSH test? TSH is only a small snapshot of ones thyroid function. Temp and pulse are just as important and accurate maybe even more so when the temp of the extremities are taken into account. You can try it yourself... track your temp and pulse and then go on a 500 calorie deficit... I guarantee pulse and temp are going to drop even if it’s a little. Therefore you’d be more hypothyroid then before you started even if it’s just a little bit. What is the OPS temps and pulse like? I wouldnt be surprised if he’s still hypothyroid
     
  15. Luckytype

    Luckytype Member

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    So lets all agree that muscle gain(and the other body changes) is an adaptation to various types stress.

    Do you see any problem with him gaining 2lbs/1kg a week after self admitedly hurting his own metabolism? He looks to be about 30ish percent body fat, and at only 10 percent for a healthy male that puts him probably around 160-165ish +/- reasonably lean and easily maintainable.

    That means hes eating either somewhere near 2x his caloric requirement for a day(5000-6000) or his body is holding on big time. I mean this guy looks to be around 5'8 or so and admits to never counting calories. Of people who never count calories, when they finally track I can only think of a few examples where people werent underfed(at least by this forums standard). Which is great until your health Is affected.

    @Pieter what are your waking temps like?
     
  16. Salmonamb

    Salmonamb Member

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    Hey @Pieter. I would go very low fat as fats will compete for oxidation with glucose, and because of IF and keto, I think glucose oxidation is very very much down regulated, and fatty acid synthesis is way upregulated now, hence the fat storage. PUFAs cause oxidative stress, inflammation, protein damage (AGE), increase stress hormones, lower good hormones, etc. Saturated fat will also cause insulin resistance if it's too high in the diet. So I think to switch back to glucose oxidation, I would go very low fat, for a period of time. I would then use highish dose niacinamide (500mg three times daily) and aspirin to block fatty acid release and oxidation. I would also use vitamin E as PUFAs deplete vitamin E, and vitamin E will prevent further damage from PUFAs. I would also make sure my vitamin D, calcium (balanced with magnesium) and salt intake is adaquate to support metabolism.
    The fact that you are feeling tired (and possibly limbs also feeling heavy), is because glucose is being converted to lactate. Taking vitamin B1 (and maybe biotin) with niacinamide and aspirin will ensure that you burn glucose and that it will not be converted to lactate. This will reduce the tired feeling and will increase CO2 production as well.
    These supplements that I'm outlining might slow, not stop, just slow, fat loss down temporary, because we want your body to start burning glucose properly. If your body doesn't start burning only glucose, you will still get hyper and hypoglycemia due to bad blood sugar control, and thus stress hormones will be all over the place and you won't be able to lose weight in anyway. So by fixing the problem first (bad glucose oxidation), fat loss will follow automatically.

    My recommendation...

    Diet:
    • Eat very low fat, less than 20g daily (MCT oil is an exception as it doesn't complete with glucose oxidation the same way other fats do). You can still eat 1 tsp of coconut oil with your carrot every day.
    • Eat lean protein (e.g. biltong, chicken breast, top loin) with every high carb meal that you have.
    • Snack on something regularly throughout the day to help stabilize blood sugar, for instance, dried/fresh fruit with biltong (geen droewors)
    • Eat about 140g protein daily, about less than 20g fat daily and the rest carbs. (this low fat is just temporary to help detox PUFAs and to start relying on dietary glucose for fuel)
    • Avoid gut irritating foods, and don't eat fat with your starches. Carbs that irritate the gut will increase stress hormones, inflammation and just put extra burden on the body.
    • If you feel cold and urinate a lot, eat starch with salt (always with protein). If you feel warm and urinate little, eat more fruit/fruit juice/low fat milk (less than 2% fat).
    • 100g liver once a week.
    • Low fat milk with cocoa and honey/sugar would be a good source of protein, carbs, calcium and other nutrients.
    • Use cronometer to make sure that you consume all your daily micronutrients through foods.
    • Maybe start with 2500 calories daily to maintain weight

    Supplements
    • 500mg niaicinamide three times daily with big meals
    • 100mg thiamine three times daily with big carb meals
    • 400IU vitamin E (high gamma tocopherol) daily
    • 325mg aspirin
    • If you don't consume enough calcium in your diet, you want atleast 1g in total. Mg cloride is not a good form as way more chloride is getting absorbed than magnesium and will burden the kidneys. Mg glycinate is much better and is available at dischem/health shops.
    • If you don't get outside much, take some vitamin D, maybe 1000-5000IU daily. It would be best to have your vitamin D status tested before supplementing of coarse.
    • Glycine (3g) and taurine (1g) with every meal. It's anti-inflammatory, will help stabilize blood sugar, improve insulin signalling, assist the liver in detoxification of toxins
    • Vitamin A is low in 50% of pre-diabetes, so make sure you have enough vitamin A in your diet.
    • If you suspect you have liver problems, like struggling to metabolize estrogen, easy weight gain, feeling jittery from caffeine, consider using supplements to get the liver lean.

    Uncoupling:
    Uncoupling will increase your body temperature, increase fat burning and CO2 production and reduce free radical formation. It's an effective way to improve your health and burn fat at the same time. Increasing uncoupling is most effectively done by improving metabolism first, and then using uncouplers. Two recommended articles: Improve metabolism and Uncoupling.

    Hope this helps.
     
  17. foodandtheworld

    foodandtheworld Member

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    Hi @Pieter , one thing a forum member, Zachs, tried, was an ultra-low fat diet that did not cut calories. He was eating around 3000 calories a day, but basically eating no fat. He lost 35 lbs in 5 months without going into a caloric deficit. Here are some links detailing his experiences:
    Overview:
    Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism
    Specific food eaten:
    Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism
    Speculation of how the body burned its own fat in lieu of dietary fat:
    Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

    Out of curiosity, I tried a similar approach a week ago. I lost 3 lbs in 4 days. I also ate around 2900-3000 calories a day, mostly from white rice, potatoes, fruits, fruit juice, molasses, honey, and skim milk. I stopped because I spend a lot of time eating with my family so it was a hassle explaining my 'weird' diet, but it's something I would go back on it if I wanted to lose weight rapidly. In those 4 days I didn't do any exercise.

    I have read that some people had trouble doing fat-free for an extended period of time. But Zachs seemed to be OK (he later wrote that he can eat whatever he wants now and maintains the same weight), and I felt fine too, although of course it was hardly a week in my case. I have collected a lot of people's experiences regarding an ultra-low fat approach in a text file if you would like me to send it to you.
     
  18. Curiousman

    Curiousman Member

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    Take care of Niacinamide.

    Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase: more than a vitamin B3 clearance enzyme

    Abstract
    Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase (NNMT) was originally identified as the enzyme responsible for the methylation of nicotinamide (NAM), one of the forms of vitamin B3. Methylated NAM (MNAM) is eventually excreted from the body. Recent evidence has expanded the role of NNMT beyond clearance of excess vitamin B3. NNMT has been implicated in the regulation of multiple metabolic pathways in tissues such as the adipose tissue and liver, as well as cancer cells, through consumption of methyl donors and generation of active metabolites. This review examines recent findings regarding the function of NNMT in physiology and disease and highlights potential new avenues for therapeutic intervention. Finally, key gaps in our knowledge for this enzymatic system and future areas of investigation are discussed.


    "Human adipose tissue NNMT expression correlates positively with adiposity and insulin resistance"

    "...Overall, these observations suggest that NAM methylation by NNMT could be involved in the development of insulin resistance."


    N1-methylnicotinamide is a signalling molecule produced in skeletal muscle coordinating energy metabolism

    Abstract
    Obesity is a major health problem, and although caloric restriction and exercise are successful strategies to lose adipose tissue in obese individuals, a simultaneous decrease in skeletal muscle mass, negatively effects metabolism and muscle function. To deeper understand molecular events occurring in muscle during weight-loss, we measured the expressional change in human skeletal muscle following a combination of severe caloric restriction and exercise over 4 days in 15 Swedish men. Key metabolic genes were regulated after the intervention, indicating a shift from carbohydrate to fat metabolism. Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase (NNMT) was the most consistently upregulated gene following the energy-deficit exercise. Circulating levels of N1-methylnicotinamide (MNA), the product of NNMT activity, were doubled after the intervention. The fasting-fed state was an important determinant of plasma MNA levels, peaking at ~18 h of fasting and being lowest ~3 h after a meal. In culture, MNA was secreted by isolated human myotubes and stimulated lipolysis directly, with no effect on glucagon or insulin secretion. We propose that MNA is a novel myokine that enhances the utilization of energy stores in response to low muscle energy availability. Future research should focus on applying MNA as a biomarker to identify individuals with metabolic disturbances at an early stage.


    Serum N1-Methylnicotinamide Is Associated With Obesity And Diabetes In Chinese

    Abstract

    Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase (NNMT) is a novel histone methylation modulator that regulates energy metabolism, and NNMT knockdown prevents diet-induced obesity in mice. However, whether NNMT plays a role in human obesity and type 2 diabetes (T2DM) remains to be elucidated.
     
  19. SolRosenberg

    SolRosenberg Member

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    Well, since I eat a Peatarian diet, then yes, I read and hear as much as I can of Ray’s work. However, I know Ray would probably disapprove of at least part of my lifestyle as I am an ultramarathon runner. However, I follow the Peatarian diet as much as absolutely possible.

    What we want to make sure of is not to confuse the process of attempting to get ripped again from the starting point of having a “dad bod” automatically with developing low functioning of the thyroid gland. What we probably can equate with thyroid dysfunction is his history of intermittent fasting. Because intermittent fasting is so successful in losing fat weight with many people they tend to make intermittent fasting a lifestyle once they achieve any semblance of success. For some people prolonged intermittent fasting can have long-term negative benefits, in which case, adopting Peatarian principles would certainly be a positive step in the right direction. Unfortunately with intermittent fasting and other diets “not counting calories” is very common. So when they stop doing intermittent fasting sometimes they gravitate towards diet plans that do not count calories or they simply fail to follow any sort of diet principal in addition to not counting any calories. For these people learning to count calories is one of the easier tools to gain accountability. I use calorie counting, weighing food, body temperature, macro nutrient proportioning, and the glycemic index as tools for my own personal accountability.

    What I mean by “shutdown” is not synonymous with being in a euthyroid state. Just simply a down regulation of metabolism, and in my estimation most individuals down regulate equates to approximately +/-300 kcals, meaning that the body will conserve that more calories via down regulation of metabolism. In other words, if an individual burns 2000 cal a day, and we put them on a 500 cal deficit diet, if they begin down regulation after a period of the dieting, then down regulation begins causing them to begin burning only 1700 cal (give or take). A 500 cal deficit (even after some down regulation) still allows for weight loss to occur because they’re still eating a 200 cal deficit. And while this may not excite any of you to hear me say this—he can still lose weight and be in a mildly decreased thyroid function state. In my experience only with severely decreased calorie intake will metabolism crash beyond 500 kcals.

    I also want to mention that I also use body temperature as a general measure of thyroid function, however while that is a useful tool when combined with other pieces of data, yet in and of itself—does not give us much useable, actionable data—as in, we cannot use this data to either determine the specific degree of down regulation of the thyroid function or use this data to offer degree-appropriate remedy. The key in my experience with thyroid function is to not be in a prolonged state of decreased thyroid function. There are many ways to safeguard against us including following some of Peat’s principles.

    That being said some individuals are more susceptible to dieting related thyroid issues than others. Imho the fastest ways to create a metabolic slowdown, decrease lipolysis and/or decrease thyroid function are in order of rapidity, 1) starvation diets (50% or more deficit dieting), 2) intermittent fasting, and 3) carbohydrate restriction (low-carb diets). A 500 cal deficit coupled with low intensity exercise (LISS), will not immediately down regulate metabolism or stall lipolysis. It takes more time than that. He needs to initiate fat mobilization and lipolysis. He does not need to do this using intermittent fasting or Keto dieting.

    Hoping to hear from OP so we can get some specifics before making too many more general recommendations.
     
  20. OP
    Pieter

    Pieter Member

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    Ill keep this thread updated with my progress. Like I stated initially, I will be doing a Peatish IF diet as to mitigate the stress hormones but still maximise fatloss. And I suppose I will have to learn how to count these calories so many people speak of at some point haha
    Here is a youtuber that has an awesome diet plan it is kinda a same approach.

     
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