Aging - programmed or not

andrewlee224 · Mar 28, 2021

So I've read that Peat thinks aging is not necessarily programmed into our bodies - it just happens that regeneration does not happen quickly enough and the system disintegrates. There is no hard 'clock' ticking and then triggering 'destruction'.

I think either case would make sense from an evolutionary perspective?
If an organism would be allowed to live indefinitely, then that would lead to competition with the offspring. And in a competitive environment (i.e. one in which the species is not an apex predator, has limited resources, etc.) it makes sense to strive to evolve and prioritise the offspring at some point.
Even if it's not programmed there is simply not enough incentive to maintain regeneration - even though logically it would seem it should be quite easy - you supply the energy and you get indefinite lifespan. It's aging that's a bit illogical (until you consider the evolutionary pressures).

However, it looks like both of these conditions do not apply to us anymore. We are the apex predator and we do have enough resources. It seems that aging does not necessarily serve it's function very well under these conditions (at least if you look at it from the biological perspective, not e.g. spiritual in which you may need to have an end as being, or 'renewal' at some point).

Do you agree with Peat? Do you think there are possible Peaty interventions beyond diet/lifestyle/supplements that can extend lifespan? E.g. if you theoretically had unlimited capital and scientists at your disposal, would you attempt some sort of a research programme based on Peat principles? (I'm not trying to steal anybody's biotech startup ideas here, I swear)

I think the topic has been discussed previously in general, but perhaps not in the same form.

meatbag · Mar 28, 2021

LeeLemonoil · Mar 28, 2021

First of all, there is no sense in evolution.

Aging hasn’t evolved to benefit offspring.

Aging isn’t programmed but is the consequence of entropy. A Concept, a Force that is real. We don’t know why and how entropy exists,but there is no way around. It’s a universal force.

If Peat really thinks that the problem is insufficient Regeneration in a certain time window then that’s a bit cheap to use that as an argument that aging doesn’t necessarily exists. It’s basically diminishing entropy while acknowledging it indirectly. That’s not very consistent or convincing.

Organisms operate on homeostasis. And homeostasis is the balancing out of the specific time of where a specie stands in evolution and the constant pressure of entropy. That’s why there is a wide bandwidth of potential lifespan within a species but never immortality.

To conclude: Aging cannot be very well explained with „sense“ or inherent evolutionary logic. It’s a fallacy. Evolution is not purpose-driven, not linear - it’s blind and only follows intrinsic necessities of processes this blindness set in motion - subject to the forces and laws of nature.

Unless you can explain how and why these forces exists you can’t explain the purpose or intent of evolution.

You can also only try to theorize the evolutionary purpose of aging if you can for reproduction

I think Arnold de Loofs theory a about how reproduction evolved is the best there is. If you apply his reasonings to aging then there basically isn’t a purpose to it and it’s not programmed either. It just is. There were nearly endless possibilities how biological life could function - up to the point where aging „evolved“ - from then on it just was

LeeLemonoil · Mar 28, 2021

meatbag said:
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------------
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Basically all that confirms the concept of homeostasis in health of the human organism. Health and aging are intertwined and sometimes congruent.

Think of it this way:

———————————> billions of years of Evolution of life up until humans in 2021

What powerful intrinsic, necessary mechanisms we are subject to! Billions of years in the making. And yet „we“ are flexible and adjustable enough to have survived and evolved through these billions of years of changing environment

————-///////———-> the other side of the spectrum: Entropy. Always present. Constant pulling force in the background bringing everything to an end. We can’t know how or why (and maybe the universe begins anew. Doesn’t matter for current existing species though )

In the middle, constantly balancing out these laws and forces - and constantly adjusting an organisms to changing environments: Homeostasis. If many things fall into place, homeostasis makes you live longer or healthier or shorter and sick. But it had never brought about an immortal creature

andrewlee224 · Mar 28, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
First of all, there is no sense in evolution.

Aging hasn’t evolved to benefit offspring.

Aging isn’t programmed but is the consequence of entropy. A Concept, a Force that is real. We don’t know why and how entropy exists,but there is no way around. It’s a universal force.

If Peat really thinks that the problem is insufficient Regeneration in a certain time window then that’s a bit cheap to use that as an argument that aging doesn’t necessarily exists. It’s basically diminishing entropy while acknowledging it indirectly. That’s not very consistent or convincing.

Organisms operate on homeostasis. And homeostasis is the balancing out of the specific time of where a specie stands in evolution and the constant pressure of entropy. That’s why there is a wide bandwidth of potential lifespan within a species but never immortality.

To conclude: Aging cannot be very well explained with „sense“ or inherent evolutionary logic. It’s a fallacy. Evolution is not purpose-driven, not linear - it’s blind and only follows intrinsic necessities of processes this blindness set in motion - subject to the forces and laws of nature.

Unless you can explain how and why these forces exists you can’t explain the purpose or intent of evolution.

You can also only try to theorize the evolutionary purpose of aging if you can for reproduction

I think Arnold de Loofs theory a about how reproduction evolved is the best there is. If you apply his reasonings to aging then there basically isn’t a purpose to it and it’s not programmed either. It just is. There were nearly endless possibilities how biological life could function - up to the point where aging „evolved“ - from then on it just was

There may be sense though, in that optimal properties are generally propagated. I agree that there may be no sense in there being a pre-planned evolutionary course. And prioritising offspring after a certain point does seem like an optimal property that would get propagated.

Entropy doesn't necessarily cause aging here since we get a constant energy supply from an 'external' source - the sun. If we consider a system of our bodies, or our bodies + earth it doesn't have to disintegrate.
I think there are animal species which can have indefinite lifespans.

LeeLemonoil · Mar 28, 2021

Maybe technology can prolong life indefinitely in theory. But entropy always threatens that too. Fire that burns matter beyond resurrection. Brute force that Maims an organisms beyond reattaching artificial organs and limbs.

I find it likely that parts of the most powerful beings currently living are obsessed with immortality and think it can be achieved. I assume that’s delusion and already a part of entropy at work. Homeostasis will see to it that immortal beings will eventually seek to kill each other or seek death out of boredom, or insight into the realities of the universe beyond the grasp of what human or AI minds can comprehend - driving our minds to a state that is unsustainable, unbearable. I don’t think a human could ever live forever and stand lt

LeeLemonoil · Mar 28, 2021

andrewlee224 said:
There may be sense though, in that optimal properties are generally propagated. I agree that there may be no sense in there being a pre-planned evolutionary course. And prioritising offspring after a certain point does seem like an optimal property that would get propagated.

Entropy doesn't necessarily cause aging here since we get a constant energy supply from an 'external' source - the sun. If we consider a system of our bodies, or our bodies + earth it doesn't have to disintegrate.
I think there are animal species which can have indefinite lifespans.

Entropy I use not only in a thermodynamical sense but a broader force of „ending“ things - as we perceive that process. Ending. Who knows what that really is.

The Sun is ending too someday isn’t it?

Which animals you think could live indefinitely?

I’m trying to stay up to date with aging and life extension science because it’s the most fundamental biology research.

There is so much we already know that can in theory prolong lifespan or healthspan in humans. But it always comes down to homeostasis, to trade-offs. And there is Never any Modulation of physilogical mechanisms that kind of freezes a Situation. Physiology is always in motion. And Energy isn’t the end all and cure all. Ample energy in any given cell can initiate a plethora of consequences including those that bring you closer to dying.

If there a programs that could be switched off so to remedy suxh situations where ample energy isn’t universally benign and life prolonging it will be many such „Programs“ intertwined in an ultra complex way. Why? Why why why? It’s like a fail-safe death switch

meatbag · Mar 28, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
Basically all that confirms the concept of homeostasis in health of the human organism. Health and aging are intertwined and sometimes congruent.

Think of it this way:

———————————> billions of years of Evolution of life up until humans in 2021

What powerful intrinsic, necessary mechanisms we are subject to! Billions of years in the making. And yet „we“ are flexible and adjustable enough to have survived and evolved through these billions of years of changing environment

————-///////———-> the other side of the spectrum: Entropy. Always present. Constant pulling force in the background bringing everything to an end. We can’t know how or why (and maybe the universe begins anew. Doesn’t matter for current existing species though )

In the middle, constantly balancing out these laws and forces - and constantly adjusting an organisms to changing environments: Homeostasis. If many things fall into place, homeostasis makes you live longer or healthier or shorter and sick. But it had never brought about an immortal creature

are organisms open or closed systems?

tankasnowgod · Mar 28, 2021

andrewlee224 said:
Do you agree with Peat? Do you think there are possible Peaty interventions beyond diet/lifestyle/supplements that can extend lifespan? E.g. if you theoretically had unlimited capital and scientists at your disposal, would you attempt some sort of a research programme based on Peat principles? (I'm not trying to steal anybody's biotech startup ideas here, I swear)

You don't need "umlimited capital" to donate blood.

meatbag · Mar 28, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
Basically all that confirms the concept of homeostasis in health of the human organism. Health and aging are intertwined and sometimes congruent.

Think of it this way:

———————————> billions of years of Evolution of life up until humans in 2021

What powerful intrinsic, necessary mechanisms we are subject to! Billions of years in the making. And yet „we“ are flexible and adjustable enough to have survived and evolved through these billions of years of changing environment

————-///////———-> the other side of the spectrum: Entropy. Always present. Constant pulling force in the background bringing everything to an end. We can’t know how or why (and maybe the universe begins anew. Doesn’t matter for current existing species though )

In the middle, constantly balancing out these laws and forces - and constantly adjusting an organisms to changing environments: Homeostasis. If many things fall into place, homeostasis makes you live longer or healthier or shorter and sick. But it had never brought about an immortal creature

Since the quantum physicist E. Schroedinger wrote his book, Time's Arrow, people have often thought of life in terms of negentropy, going against the general tendency of entropy to increase, except for aging and death, which are seen as obeying a law of increasing entropy. But A. Zotin investigated organisms, rather than abstractions about electrons, and shows that aging involves a decrease in entropy, and a slowing of metabolism. The decrease of entropy with aging, according to his view, would be analogous to crystallization, a sort of progressive freezing.
Prostate Cancer

LeeLemonoil · Mar 29, 2021

meatbag said:
Since the quantum physicist E. Schroedinger wrote his book, Time's Arrow, people have often thought of life in terms of negentropy, going against the general tendency of entropy to increase, except for aging and death, which are seen as obeying a law of increasing entropy. But A. Zotin investigated organisms, rather than abstractions about electrons, and shows that aging involves a decrease in entropy, and a slowing of metabolism. The decrease of entropy with aging, according to his view, would be analogous to crystallization, a sort of progressive freezing.
Prostate Cancer

That‘s an interesting view that I didn’t know, thanks for mentioning.

As said, when I use entropy I mean it not in the canonical sense, should maybe it’s another term.

I think living organisms aren’t open or closed systems in the sense of our classification. They are interconnected with the environment, with the universe in general to be a bit melodramatic.
Closed in the way that the laws we abide are always the same set and open in the way that basically everything we encounter in the environment influences the system one way or another.
The biggest fallacy is to be reductionist when trying to explain life.
Seeing aging as a program and human organism as a machine is both correct in a way and at the same time way off the mark and the attempt of our limited intellect and perception to explain something beyond what we can grasp and perceive.

That’s also a basic propertie if life. It „is“ always in more then one seemingly contradictory conditions simultaneously.

It’s both binary and isn’t binary. That’s why we struggle even with comprehending the roles of estrogens and androgens in human health. They are apart, worin against each other and still are always interdependent, feedback each other and balance each other for good or bad. For homeostasis. Every second anew a new homeostasis predetermined by the moment before

Regina · Mar 29, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
Maybe technology can prolong life indefinitely in theory. But entropy always threatens that too. Fire that burns matter beyond resurrection. Brute force that Maims an organisms beyond reattaching artificial organs and limbs.

I find it likely that parts of the most powerful beings currently living are obsessed with immortality and think it can be achieved. I assume that’s delusion and already a part of entropy at work. Homeostasis will see to it that immortal beings will eventually seek to kill each other or seek death out of boredom, or insight into the realities of the universe beyond the grasp of what human or AI minds can comprehend - driving our minds to a state that is unsustainable, unbearable. I don’t think a human could ever live forever and stand lt

Wisdom right there.

LeeLemonoil · Mar 29, 2021

meatbag said:
Since the quantum physicist E. Schroedinger wrote his book, Time's Arrow, people have often thought of life in terms of negentropy, going against the general tendency of entropy to increase, except for aging and death, which are seen as obeying a law of increasing entropy. But A. Zotin investigated organisms, rather than abstractions about electrons, and shows that aging involves a decrease in entropy, and a slowing of metabolism. The decrease of entropy with aging, according to his view, would be analogous to crystallization, a sort of progressive freezing.
Prostate Cancer

Again on the crystallization thing:
In my understanding that’s only one aspect of the truth. I’ve theorized myself that the slowdown of metabolism leans to the senescence side of causes of „ending“. Zotin probably describes something similar.

But there are other causes of ending: Apoptosis. Autophagy. Cancerous states. Some of these mechanisms fueled by increased and abberant cellular metabolism. Estrogen. Growth leading to destruction. Reproduction leading to death. Mito-fission can cause havoc.

It won’t suffice to say: this is entropy at work and there is negentropy setting in and at that stage again entropy. Duality and binary thinking don’t explain life and death

andrewlee224 · Mar 29, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
Maybe technology can prolong life indefinitely in theory. But entropy always threatens that too. Fire that burns matter beyond resurrection. Brute force that Maims an organisms beyond reattaching artificial organs and limbs.

I find it likely that parts of the most powerful beings currently living are obsessed with immortality and think it can be achieved. I assume that’s delusion and already a part of entropy at work. Homeostasis will see to it that immortal beings will eventually seek to kill each other or seek death out of boredom, or insight into the realities of the universe beyond the grasp of what human or AI minds can comprehend - driving our minds to a state that is unsustainable, unbearable. I don’t think a human could ever live forever and stand lt

So it looks like your short answer is 'yes'. In my question I was concerned with the possibility of extending lifespan indefinitely given enough energetic resources from a strictly physical point of view.

LeeLemonoil · Mar 29, 2021

andrewlee224 said:
So it looks like your short answer is 'yes'. In my question I was concerned with the possibility of extending lifespan indefinitely given enough energetic resources from a strictly physical point of view.

?
First of all I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Sometimes it just flows.

My short answer is: no. But that no can’t be confounded with falsifying the known physician laws. Within that limits: yes.

andrewlee224 · Mar 29, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
?
First of all I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Sometimes it just flows.

My short answer is: no. But that no can’t be confounded with falsifying the known physician laws. Within that limits: yes.

No worries, happy to see other viewpoints and getting the discussion going!

Perry Staltic · Mar 29, 2021

Aging is the process of death, and death is the sentence for disobedience that lies at the core of every human being. Until a person "figures out" how to conquer that disobedience, death will never be conquered. If death were simply a matter of what is put into the body instead of what comes out of its core (ie, thoughts, behavior), don't you think it would have been figured out by now? If not there's always another scifi movie you can watch.

andrewlee224 · Mar 29, 2021

Perry Staltic said:
Aging is the process of death, and death is the sentence for disobedience that lies at the core of every human being. Until a person "figures out" how to conquer that disobedience, death will never be conquered. If death were simply a matter of what is put into the body instead of what comes out of its core (ie, thoughts, behavior), don't you think it would have been figured out by now? If not there's always another scifi movie you can watch.

See that's very interesting. You consider this to be entirely *not* a biological/physical thing. That's an interesting concept, I don't think you have any arguments for that though? That doesn't mean it doesn't have to be true.
Seems that there are many more different views of aging than I expected.

meatbag · Mar 29, 2021

Perry Staltic said:
Aging is the process of death, and death is the sentence for disobedience that lies at the core of every human being. Until a person "figures out" how to conquer that disobedience, death will never be conquered. If death were simply a matter of what is put into the body instead of what comes out of its core (ie, thoughts, behavior), don't you think it would have been figured out by now? If not there's always another scifi movie you can watch.

Spank me harder daddy

meatbag · Mar 29, 2021

LeeLemonoil said:
Again on the crystallization thing:
In my understanding that’s only one aspect of the truth. I’ve theorized myself that the slowdown of metabolism leans to the senescence side of causes of „ending“. Zotin probably describes something similar.

But there are other causes of ending: Apoptosis. Autophagy. Cancerous states. Some of these mechanisms fueled by increased and abberant cellular metabolism. Estrogen. Growth leading to destruction. Reproduction leading to death. Mito-fission can cause havoc.

It won’t suffice to say: this is entropy at work and there is negentropy setting in and at that stage again entropy. Duality and binary thinking don’t explain life and death

The human organism is an “electrome” and diseases can be cured by controlling electron flow – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

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Aging - programmed or not

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