Weight Loss: Starch And Trytophan Are What Are Stopping You

[Deleted member 5487]

@Amarsh213 maybe you wrote it... but I didnt saw it? What about whole eggs? And Egg whites?

I will eat 2-3 eggs in a sitting a couple times a week when I am craving them, they just have so much tryptophan.
Same as when I have meat I do a hefty dose of gelatin+collagen and apple juice(fructose)

 

[Cirion]

I just made a new plot that is even more of an indictment towards tryptophan/excess protein for weight gain.

This is a new parameter I made up myself - It's the fernstrom ratio times protein intake for the day. The idea is that tryptophan is harmful, but so is ammonia from ANY protein source. Lower fernstrom ratio proteins are less harmful, but can still be harmful if too much intaken. That's what I was trying to show with this plot. And it seems like I managed to accomplish just that. It seems according to this, you'd kinda wanna be less than 5-6 if possible. To put an example - 100 grams of protein at a fernstrom ratio of 0.05 would give a P*F of 5. If you like to eat high protein, you'd need to significantly drop the fernstrom ratio lower and still be OK.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I just made a new plot that is even more of an indictment towards tryptophan/excess protein for weight gain.

This is a new parameter I made up myself - It's the fernstrom ratio times protein intake for the day. The idea is that tryptophan is harmful, but so is ammonia from ANY protein source. Lower fernstrom ratio proteins are less harmful, but can still be harmful if too much intaken. That's what I was trying to show with this plot. And it seems like I managed to accomplish just that. It seems according to this, you'd kinda wanna be less than 5-6 if possible. To put an example - 100 grams of protein at a fernstrom ratio of 0.05 would give a P*F of 5. If you like to eat high protein, you'd need to significantly drop the fernstrom ratio lower and still be OK.

Interesting, I would like to see the plot compared to a plot of simply total protein vs water weight.

 

[pepsi]

I decided to try this because Im tired of feeling so bloated every day.
Almost all of my protein comes from nonfat milk, I have no idea where else to get my daily protein from, I also drink a lot of OJ.
Each morning I start with a cup of coffee, everything is fine, about an hour later I start consuming milk/OJ.
The bloating starts a little after that, I also get intestinal cramps and it worsens throughout the day. But when I wake up each morning, the bloating is
gone and I have a full bladder.
I could never figure out if it was the OJ, milk, or the combination of both doing this.
I just deal with it cause I really dont know what else to eat.

I thought since the OP had success, I would also give this a try.

I started consuming cottage cheese and goat cheese about 4 days ago, no milk. I couldnt
find A2 cottage cheese, just daisy low fat cottage cheese and some supermarket goat cheese.

Here are my changes so far:
- The bloating is gone and so are my intestinal cramps. I guess this means it was the milk after all. I wake up in the morning with a normal bladder, but
I didnt go to sleep feeling bloated either.
- Mood is a little better, maybe less learned helplessness, still too early to tell.
- Skin looks a little better, maybe because of all the fat, the only fat I had before was from whatever coconut oil I would consume, and an egg or 2 each day.
- I was afraid I might gain weight eating all this cheese, but its only been about 4 days. I feel a little heavier but its the start of my period and I always
feel heavier during this time. Im going to continue eating like this the rest of the week, and if I dont gain weight, I will probably continue with it and maybe tweek things here or there.
Thanks for posting this OP.

 

[LUH 3417]

I decided to try this because Im tired of feeling so bloated every day.
Almost all of my protein comes from nonfat milk, I have no idea where else to get my daily protein from, I also drink a lot of OJ.
Each morning I start with a cup of coffee, everything is fine, about an hour later I start consuming milk/OJ.
The bloating starts a little after that, I also get intestinal cramps and it worsens throughout the day. But when I wake up each morning, the bloating is
gone and I have a full bladder.
I could never figure out if it was the OJ, milk, or the combination of both doing this.
I just deal with it cause I really dont know what else to eat.

I thought since the OP had success, I would also give this a try.

I started consuming cottage cheese and goat cheese about 4 days ago, no milk. I couldnt
find A2 cottage cheese, just daisy low fat cottage cheese and some supermarket goat cheese.

Here are my changes so far:
- The bloating is gone and so are my intestinal cramps. I guess this means it was the milk after all. I wake up in the morning with a normal bladder, but
I didnt go to sleep feeling bloated either.
- Mood is a little better, maybe less learned helplessness, still too early to tell.
- Skin looks a little better, maybe because of all the fat, the only fat I had before was from whatever coconut oil I would consume, and an egg or 2 each day.
- I was afraid I might gain weight eating all this cheese, but its only been about 4 days. I feel a little heavier but its the start of my period and I always
feel heavier during this time. Im going to continue eating like this the rest of the week, and if I dont gain weight, I will probably continue with it and maybe tweek things here or there.
Thanks for posting this OP.

Thank you for this. I am thinking about experimenting. Just ordered some a2 paneer cheese and goat cottage cheese from my Amish farmer :).

 

[lampofred]

All these numbers and analysis just to know what to eat to be healthy sucks

To be honest I want to get surgery and get my parathyroid and my adrenals and my pituitary removed

Either my thyroid works or I die

 

[Cirion]

All these numbers and analysis just to know what to eat to be healthy sucks

To be honest I want to get surgery and get my parathyroid and my adrenals and my pituitary removed

Either my thyroid works or I die

LOL. I hear ya. I finally decided I got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and I had a severe case of F***-around-itis prior until now, and now I'm truly serious about this whole health thing. Yeah it's some severe OCD, but I don't care, I want to get well no matter what it takes. Besides, when I write my book after getting well (I plan to do something like Nathan Hatch did in that regard, because I'm passionate about these things and no one should suffer like I have, so I plan to share my experiences w/ the world), I want to have some cool stuff (plots) and stuff to put in it.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

I decided to try this because Im tired of feeling so bloated every day.
Almost all of my protein comes from nonfat milk, I have no idea where else to get my daily protein from, I also drink a lot of OJ.
Each morning I start with a cup of coffee, everything is fine, about an hour later I start consuming milk/OJ.
The bloating starts a little after that, I also get intestinal cramps and it worsens throughout the day. But when I wake up each morning, the bloating is
gone and I have a full bladder.
I could never figure out if it was the OJ, milk, or the combination of both doing this.
I just deal with it cause I really dont know what else to eat.

I thought since the OP had success, I would also give this a try.

I started consuming cottage cheese and goat cheese about 4 days ago, no milk. I couldnt
find A2 cottage cheese, just daisy low fat cottage cheese and some supermarket goat cheese.

Here are my changes so far:
- The bloating is gone and so are my intestinal cramps. I guess this means it was the milk after all. I wake up in the morning with a normal bladder, but
I didnt go to sleep feeling bloated either.
- Mood is a little better, maybe less learned helplessness, still too early to tell.
- Skin looks a little better, maybe because of all the fat, the only fat I had before was from whatever coconut oil I would consume, and an egg or 2 each day.
- I was afraid I might gain weight eating all this cheese, but its only been about 4 days. I feel a little heavier but its the start of my period and I always
feel heavier during this time. Im going to continue eating like this the rest of the week, and if I dont gain weight, I will probably continue with it and maybe tweek things here or there.
Thanks for posting this OP.

Congrats

From a Opiate and prolactin spiking effect of A1, I generally use a2 90% of the time, from goat/sheep/a2 milk(cottage cheese).

The Saturated fat is providing fuel to the body and normalizing mitochondrial function which is bringing back that glow to your skin.

Try some b2 and extra coffee see if that helps with learned helplessness

I also like taurine, since the tyrosine content can increase the cataclomes to much. The gaba helps lower the adrenaline from excess dopamine becuase of low serotonin.

 

[Cirion]

Interesting, I would like to see the plot compared to a plot of simply total protein vs water weight.

A little more scatter, because this ignores proteins which are high or low in fernstrom ratio.

 

[DaveFoster]

Low fat is the key to weight gain.

Tryptophan makes your fat=Milk(whey)/Meat make you fat.

What makes people fat are two things:

1) Huge spikes in glucose from white rice or powdered bird seed(white flour)
2) Tryptophan/Cystein/Methaone

"Serotonin increases cortisol in a dose dependent manner through the pituitary,[9] and acts indirectly on the adrenal glands by promoting the formation of estrogen,[10] prolactin,[11] and the prostaglandins.[12] Estrogen,[13] prolactin[14] and the prostaglandins[15] appear to be involved in baldness. Serotonin also increases the "salt retaining" hormone, aldosterone,[16] which is also associated with pattern hair loss.[17]"

All those hormones start the spin downwards towards obesity/insulin resistance
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I am down like 20lbs eating goat cheese/ cottage cheese/ gelatin and drinking sugard juice.

Interesting. What about eating less tryptophan and also less fat?

 

[DaveFoster]

Weight Loss, KMUD Herb Doctors, 2013

1. No, you can not get fat eating only 1,000 calories a day, unless you are a small child. Gain weight? Sure, but it's likely water weight. I don't think you can produce any single adult human who is overweight who only ate 1,000 calories a day every day for all their life and got fat. Those are anorexics.

2. Absolutely. Athletes in the Tour De France routinely have to eat 6,000-7,000 calories a day to keep weight on. Although the majority of people would likely gain weight eating at this level.

My aunt says that she eats around 1,200 calories daily, give or take. She basically eats a small breakfast, tiny lunch and moderately sized dinner. She uses sweeteners for deserts and drinks sugar-free lemonade and similar things all day long. She's a healthy weight and certainly not overweight, but she's obviously hypothyroid given her neurotic personality, tendency to laugh at unfunny jokes and so on. She's been restricting calories since in her 30s at least, and she's now 60. She's around 5'4".

 

[Richiebogie]

Hi @Cirion.

Are you keeping your diet constant each day for a week before weighing in, as your weight at any time includes foods digesting from 1, 2 or more days before...?

 

[Cirion]

Hi @Cirion.

Are you keeping your diet constant each day for a week before weighing in, as your weight at any time includes foods digesting from 1, 2 or more days before...?

I've heard that claim, but my experience and data tracking is so far showing that to not really be a major contributor... Since so far I can clearly explain why I feel good or bad on a given day based upon what I ate the day immediately previous.

That said, it is an easy calculation I could do, so it cannot hurt to look at it - Basically do something like a 2 day rolling average of food intakes and see if things are better correlated in that light.

 

[MatheusPN]

Trust me bro you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. You have to remember that I used to champion CICO for over 5 years when I thought I knew everything and was a bodybuilding/powerlifting "Expert" for almost half a decade. I still don't know everything (In fact I am well aware that there is lots I DON'T know now) but what I DO know is that CICO just doesn't cut it at all, not when there are dozens of confounding factors that just counting calories will make you miss (Like my example I talk about further below where I gained 2 lb on 3000 calories but lost 0.6 lb on 4200 calories). NOW, since I am an engineer and it would be intellectually dishonest for me NOT to mention that the energy does indeed have to go somewhere, I'll note that the VERY basic premise of CICO has some merit. However, it's simply not reliable for any sort of tool for effective and healthy weight loss because the calories that result in weight gain or loss are EXTREMELY volatile (3000 calories can make you lose 2 lb and 3000 calories can make you gain 2 lb, if that's not volatile I dunno what is) and not stable and extremely dependent on so many other factors, and following a path such as this inevitable makes someone end up restricting themselves and ruining their metabolism.

Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging

Like I said, Ray Peat and myself champion the idea that water swelling often (Admittedly, not always) means increase of stress (Except perhaps in scenarios where you are glycogen depleted, and suddenly become glycogen replete). So yes, you can use water weight gain or loss as a rough estimate of stress loss or gain in the whole body IMO. Also, stress tends to result in FAT gain, and so you can use water weight gain as a middle-man/correlating parameter because increasing estrogen and water weight usually also results in fat gain.

In my data, I am already seeing there are many days I lost weight on +4000 calories, so I already know for a fact I can do it. It's not that high in calories. @MatheusPN said he has lost weight on 8,000 calories a day (Not sure if he is sedentary or not tho)

Also, now that I know it is Fernstrom ratio that drives weight gain or loss, and not so much Protein per-se, and today I've realized I'm ravenously hungry (A good sign IMO) following all the rules I now know to follow, I'm actually going to increase my protein intake and see what happens- but in such a fashion that Fernstrom ratio remains low (Beef, Gelatin mostly). No cheese, no milk, no whey, etcetera. Previously, every time I increased protein intake, I ended up with a high fernstrom ratio too and I believe that was my downfall, not the increased protein intake. But, I'll be tracking data, and we shall see. Beef is possibly the perfect protein, even more than gelatin. Not only does beef have a very low fernstrom ratio, but on top of that, beef fat, according to CLASH, is the best fat you can eat for metabolism and fat loss next to cocoa butter.

I likely read that Lyle Mcdonald post before anyone else here has (I'm not new to this health thing... Been doing it for a decade now) and well aware of what he has to say. But Lyle and others miss the finer details, which I'm in the process of ironing out now. I am happy he did mention hormones though, but he doesn't go into the detail that Ray Peat and others do and mention things like SFA/PUFA ratios, sugar/starches, and so on.

You'll note I have opted not to show a plot of calories vs. weight gain because it's not actually that interesting and the data is all over the map (Days where I lost 2 lbs on 3000 calories and days I gained 2 lbs on 3000 calories for instance). Yes it does crossover at about 4000-4200 calories, but it has like 100 variables, and most of the cases of >4000 calories also have high fernstrom ratio, high pufa, and so I don't think it is the calories causing the weight gain. BTW I had one day I lost 0.6 lb on 4200 calories, so contrast that with the 2 lb gain on 3000 calories. The 3000 calorie day was high tryptophan, high pufa, and the 4200 calorie day was lwo tryptophan low pufa.

In fact, I'm gonna say it, just because I kind of enjoy the controversy this entails LOL - you can eat virtually infinite calories and not get fat. If you follow all the rules - high sfa/pufa, low low fernstrom ratio, high sugar to starch ratio. I am extremely aware this is an extremely bold claim and one I intend to prove or at least attempt to prove. But no major discoveries were made by people not willing to push the limits

An old forum member visionofstrength kind of came to similar conclusions I'm coming to as well. His goal was also eat to make metabolism insanely fast, and eat MORE to lose weight not less. The simple fact is this: If you don't always wake up with 98.6F temp and ideally 85 pulse, with zero grogginess, and perfect mood, energy, motivation, libido, outlook on life - then your metabolism is at least partially broken. Period. And a large reason it is broken, is probably chronic insufficient energy intake due to chronic obsession with "CICO". Ray Peat said it best - we should be like the kid who is excited to wake up for Christmas - and every day should have this excitement to it. If not, something is wrong. This is the goal we should all strive for at the end of the day... no? Once I achieve this goal, I will rest easy. I'll probably still research things, but I'll be busy enjoying life at that point finally.

Hi Cirion
My short reply, I am active to very active, always standing up, walking, short runs, I do 1 arm pull ups, 1 leg jumping, clap push ups... When I was very active if I eat only 6500 or 7000 kcal I would lose weight rapidly
Now I am coming back to eat more, hungry but without a huge tank
Lately you're progressing really good and faster I am liking more your posts each time more! Thanks

 

[SOMO]

Non-fat Milk used to bloat me, but the next morning it actually flattened my stomach.

When the liquid is absorbed, it takes up space in the stomach.

Then, some bacteria ferment the lactose and make gas.

But the lactose is rapidly absorbed leaving very little for bacteria to eat and when you urinate, the liquid is excreted as well.

There are many reasons to drink milk besides weight loss.

 

[YourUniverse]

Also, Ive lost 8-10 lbs over the last month and finally re-fit into 36" jeans that've been on the shelf since I was 22.

I eat starch every day, with a caveat: It is eaten without any protein, for at least 1 hour. It is also eaten, preferentially, post-workout.

The rest of the day are coffee, chocolate, fruit/beef/milk meals, with vitamin E, niacinamide, glycine, and L-theanine

 

[ShotTrue]

Also, Ive lost 8-10 lbs over the last month and finally re-fit into 36" jeans that've been on the shelf since I was 22.

I eat starch every day, with a caveat: It is eaten without any protein, for at least 1 hour. It is also eaten, preferentially, post-workout.

The rest of the day are coffee, chocolate, fruit/beef/milk meals, with vitamin E, niacinamide, glycine, and L-theanine

What's your quote from? The Dark Tower series?

 

[ShotTrue]

Congrats

From a Opiate and prolactin spiking effect of A1, I generally use a2 90% of the time, from goat/sheep/a2 milk(cottage cheese).

The Saturated fat is providing fuel to the body and normalizing mitochondrial function which is bringing back that glow to your skin.

Try some b2 and extra coffee see if that helps with learned helplessness

I also like taurine, since the tyrosine content can increase the cataclomes to much. The gaba helps lower the adrenaline from excess dopamine becuase of low serotonin.

Are you sure it's not the igf-1 effect of milk or collagen increasing from OJ that helps with skin

 

[YourUniverse]

What's your quote from? The Dark Tower series?

The Stranger in the Woods

 

[ShotTrue]

The Stranger in the Woods

thanks