Ray Peat Interview - June 1st, 2019 With Jodelle - Cortisol, Low Testosterone, Dangers Of A No Sugar

[CLASH]

Alot of people think that the human diet is very individual, I dont think so. I think the base diet is the same for all of us with individual variations in toleration of foods like dairy and starches. Universally I think grains, beans, most nuts, seeds, refined foods, alcohol, vegetable oils etc. are not human foods.

Dairy has one of the worst amino acid profiles of all protein sources. Red meat has one of the best amino acid profiles, especially ground meat. Look up the amino acids on cronometer and you will see. The best amino acid ratio is ground meat. It also is the lowest in pufa and is one of the most usable proteins by the body.

I think low fat diets are not the ideal way to eat for the human body. I think the low fat dogma on this forum is just flat out wrong and many people are suffering for it and conjuring unicorns and fairytales to rationalize thier cognitive dissonance. I Especially believe this becuase the main argument behind it is the randle cycle. Its too simplistic considering fats are used for different funcions in the body than merely energy substrate. Carbs are also used for different functions. Even more so I think that tissues prioritize fuel use, so when you eat fats and sugar together the fats serves as a fuel source for muscles and the sugar serves as a fuel source for the nervous tissue and organs.

I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would get fat with a diet of fruit, 100% fruit juice, beef, seafood, specific vegetables, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter. Even if they had a f*cked up gut, I still dont think they would get fat.

Also @Cirion I have seen the graphs you posted a few times, I dont really see any significant trend lines in the graphs. I think you may be spinning your wheels. Your 100lbs overweight man, I dont think pulse and temp are going to be your savoir, they havent been so far. This is why I asked you the other day at what point are you going to stop with this experiment. You didnt have a real answer, so I didnt say anything because I dont want to beat a dead horse. I think you may be deluding yourself somewhat with these metrics. Thats not to say dont test your theory out, but it is to say that after a month or two if its not working, consider the fact that you may be chasing your own tail. I’m not being hard on you, to be an assh*le but look at your diet man, its like 700g of grams of carbs and your 100lbs overweight and nothing you have done so far has gotten you to lose any significant amount of weight. You continue to blame fats but you keep limiting them and your weight isnt really going down by your own admission.

If the experiment doesnt work, hit me up if your interested in trying to implement a diet with more fat. If I get you to lose 100lbs you owe me a bottle of 100% grape juice.

 

[Inaut]

Welch’s much @CLASH

 

[Kartoffel]

Dairy has one of the worst amino acid profiles of all protein sources. Red meat has one of the best amino acid profiles

How exactely is the amino acid profile of meat so much better? Milk has more tryptophan and less glycine than ground beef, but less cysteine, methionine, and more proline.

 

[Regina]

No. The only difference I would call significant is cysteine content. Cow meat only has about 80% of the cysteine chicken contains per 100g of protein. That's good since cysteine is one of the amino acids containing organic sulphur which can increase the production of H2S. Tryptophan isn't that problematic in the context of a normal diet and normal protein sources, but methionine, cysteine, and taurine can be very problematic, if your gut bacteria are out of balance.

Shucks! even taurine?

 

[CLASH]

@Kartoffel
This is 93/7 ground beef (this is what i eat regularly)

 

[CLASH]

Milk has the same methionine, more tryptophan, less glycine, more proline, less cystine.

Neither are really that high in cysteine. For 90g of protein of ground beef, you’d just be hitting the daily recommended intake.

EDIT: Although this is tangential to the conversation at hand, my gripe with milk is less about the amino acids (i eat shrimp daily which has a way worse profile than both beef and milk), which overall I dont think matter quite that much, and more to do with hormones and opiate peptides.

I’d argue the only main benefit of milk is the decreased cystine. I dont think proline makes such a big difference overall.

On the flip side, milk has way more calcium and pottasium. Its always a trade off.

 

[Kartoffel]

Milk has the same methionine, more tryptophan, less glycine, more proline, less cystine.

Neither are really that high in cysteine. For 90g of protein of ground beef, you’d just be hitting the daily recommended intake.

EDIT: Although this is tangential to the conversation at hand, my gripe with milk is less about the amino acids (i eat shrimp daily which has a way worse profile than both beef and milk), which overall I dont think matter quite that much, and more to do with hormones and opiate peptides.

I’d argue the only main benefit of milk is the decreased cystine. I dont think proline makes such a big difference overall.

Ok, so why is beef so much better than milk? I don't disagree that beef is a good protein source but I don't see how a little less tryptophan makes it inherently superior to milk. The extra glycine is indeed good, but you only get that with ground beef and the amount is not that substantial. In rat experiments, at least, casein seems to have many benefits compared to beef protein.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

No. The only difference I would call significant is cysteine content. Cow meat only has about 80% of the cysteine chicken contains per 100g of protein. That's good since cysteine is one of the amino acids containing organic sulphur which can increase the production of H2S. Tryptophan isn't that problematic in the context of a normal diet and normal protein sources, but methionine, cysteine, and taurine can be very problematic, if your gut bacteria are out of balance.

Thats's kind of what I figured as they both seem meat-y to me, but red meat taste a bit better. Interesting you mentioned Taurine as problematic since many choose to supplement it on here, but no one would supplement methionine or cysteine.

 

[CLASH]

@Kartoffel
All i claimed was that beefs amino acid profile was better than milks. I showed why I think that here, to which you replied that you dont think it makes that much of a difference.

I tangentially listed the pros and cons of each underneath. Whether beef or milk works for you is up to you. Theres pros and cons on either side.

*Ground beef (to be more specific)
-better amino acid profile
-no hormones
-no opiate peptides

*milk
-better calcium to phosphate ratio
-better pottasium content
-pharmacologic properties from the specific peptides
-less iron

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Alot of people think that the human diet is very individual, I dont think so. I think the base diet is the same for all of us with individual variations in toleration of foods like dairy and starches. Universally I think grains, beans, most nuts, seeds, refined foods, alcohol, vegetable oils etc. are not human foods.

Dairy has one of the worst amino acid profiles of all protein sources. Red meat has one of the best amino acid profiles, especially ground meat. Look up the amino acids on cronometer and you will see. The best amino acid ratio is ground meat. It also is the lowest in pufa and is one of the most usable proteins by the body.

I think low fat diets are not the ideal way to eat for the human body. I think the low fat dogma on this forum is just flat out wrong and many people are suffering for it and conjuring unicorns and fairytales to rationalize thier cognitive dissonance. I Especially believe this becuase the main argument behind it is the randle cycle. Its too simplistic considering fats are used for different funcions in the body than merely energy substrate. Carbs are also used for different functions. Even more so I think that tissues prioritize fuel use, so when you eat fats and sugar together the fats serves as a fuel source for muscles and the sugar serves as a fuel source for the nervous tissue and organs.

I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would get fat with a diet of fruit, 100% fruit juice, beef, seafood, specific vegetables, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter. Even if they had a f*cked up gut, I still dont think they would get fat.

Also @Cirion I have seen the graphs you posted a few times, I dont really see any significant trend lines in the graphs. I think you may be spinning your wheels. Your 100lbs overweight man, I dont think pulse and temp are going to be your savoir, they havent been so far. This is why I asked you the other day at what point are you going to stop with this experiment. You didnt have a real answer, so I didnt say anything because I dont want to beat a dead horse. I think you may be deluding yourself somewhat with these metrics. Thats not to say dont test your theory out, but it is to say that after a month or two if its not working, consider the fact that you may be chasing your own tail. I’m not being hard on you, to be an assh*le but look at your diet man, its like 700g of grams of carbs and your 100lbs overweight and nothing you have done so far has gotten you to lose any significant amount of weight. You continue to blame fats but you keep limiting them and your weight isnt really going down by your own admission.

If the experiment doesnt work, hit me up if your interested in trying to implement a diet with more fat. If I get you to lose 100lbs you owe me a bottle of 100% grape juice.

I'm not sure if many on here think dietary saturated fat is inherently bad -- actually most, like peat, think it's beneficial. I think the problem with dietary fat is when you are carrying excess body fat. Why eat additional dietary fat, when you can be "eating" your own body fat? Use your own body fat as fuel first, then when that is low and you need more, eat it from food.

 

[Tenacity]

@Cirion Your log thread is titled something like "My journey to optimal health." Do you think a diet that's comprised of around 40% free sugars (syrup, coke, honey) is really living optimally?

 

[CLASH]

@Pufas Shmoofas
Its more than energy balance. Its hormonal environment which saturated and monounsaturated fats manipulate, as well as effects on the gut and gut bacteria.

Obesity is an inflammatory, metabolism based issue, in my opinion; Its not an excess energy problem. Gut bacteria and endotoxin are strongly implicated.

 

[Kartoffel]

Thats's kind of what I figured as they both seem meat-y to me, but red meat taste a bit better. Interesting you mentioned Taurine as problematic since many choose to supplement it on here, but no one would supplement methionine or cysteine.

As everything, it probably depends on the context. In theory, taurine has many health benefits. Nevertheless, taurine is probably the sulphur-containing amino acid that is the most potent growth factor for pathogenic, sulfite-reducing bacteria such as Bilophila wadsworthia. Pure taurine powder always upset my digestion and made me feel irritated - I suspect this had something to do with it.

 

[Regina]

As everything, it probably depends on the context. In theory, taurine has many health benefits. Nevertheless, taurine is probably the sulphur-containing amino acid that is the most potent growth factor for pathogenic, sulfite-reducing bacteria such as Bilophila wadsworthia. Pure taurine powder always upset my digestion and made me feel irritated - I suspect this had something to do with it.

hmm. good to know (re taurine). Thx

 

[CLASH]

@Kartoffel
You sure its not taurines effect on increasing bile acids that are giving you that effect? From what I understand bile acids can induce bilophila wadsworthia as well. I think higher fiber from fruits and veg can help to eliminate that issue by binding the bile acids and carrying them out/ diluting them in the colon.

 

[Kartoffel]

@Kartoffel
You sure its not taurines effect on increasing bile acids that are giving you that effect? From what I understand bile acids can induce bilophila wadsworthia as well. I think higher fiber from fruits and veg can help to eliminate that issue by binding the bile acids and carrying them out/ diluting them in the colon.

No, I think in that case it's the taurine itself. I don't think taurine has much of an effect on bile acid production. More than taurine itself (be it from supplements or meat), the bile acid taurocholate, which is degraded to taurine by the bacteria, seems to be the favorite food of bilophila. In animal models, high-fat diets induce increased bile acid production, and it seems pretty clear that the inflammation and permeability issues are at least partly caused by bacterial changes.

Novel enzyme discovered in intestinal bacteria

"In the human intestinal system, a complex community of microorganisms, the intestinal microbiome, metabolizes food components that have not readily been digested. However, there are also microbial degradation processes occurring in the colon that may have negative effects on the human host."​

"In the research team Microbial Ecology, headed by biologist Dr David Schleheck, a key enzyme was discovered in cooperation with Harvard University (USA). This enzyme is involved in the degradation of the substrate taurine, which is abundant in the colon, by the intestinal bacterium Bilophila wadsworthia. This process generates toxic hydrogen sulfide. Increased hydrogen sulfide production is thought to be associated with higher permeability of the intestinal barrier, higher susceptibility to infections and colon cancer. Moreover, Bilophila wadsworthia can act as a pathogen, for example in appendicitis. The results were published in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."

"Taurine is introduced into the human digestive system primarily through a high-fat diet, but also through meat. A high-fat diet leads to increased production of bile acids, one of which is taurocholate, supporting the digestion of fat. In the large intestine, however, the Bilophila bacteria degrade the taurocholate to taurine, and use the taurine for anaerobic energy generation in the absence of atmospheric oxygen, producing the toxic hydrogen sulfide. This special type of energy metabolism by Bilophila, the "bile-acid loving" organism, had already been described 20 years ago by the research group of biologist Professor Alasdair Cook at the University of Konstanz. In this pathway, a sulphur-containing group of taurine is split off and reduced to hydrogen sulfide. However, until today it was unknown which enzyme in the strictly anaerobic Bilophila bacteria is responsible for this cleavage. The discovery of a novel glycyl radical enzyme has now enabled David Schleheck's research team to close this knowledge gap."​

J Agric Food Chem. 2019 Apr 3;67(13):3624-3632. doi: 10.1021/acs.jafc.9b00249. Epub 2019 Mar 20.
Alterations of Bile Acids and Gut Microbiota in Obesity Induced by High Fat Diet in Rat Model.
Lin H1,2, An Y1, Tang H1, Wang Y3.
Author information
Abstract
Obesity has become a worldwide health issue and has attracted much public attention. In the current study, we aim to elucidate the roles of bile acids and their associations with gut microbiota during obesity development, employing high fat diet (HFD)-induced obesity in a rat model. We collected feces and plasma, liver tissues, and segments of intestinal tissues and a developed bile acids quantification method by employing an ultraperformance liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry detection (UPLC-MS) strategy. We then assessed bile acids fluxes in the biological matrixes collected. We found that, irrespective of dietary regimes, taurine-conjugated bile acids were the dominant species in the liver whereas unconjugated bile acids were in plasma. However, HFD caused slight increases in the total bile acids pool and particularly the increases in the levels of deoxycholic acid (DCA) (138.67 ± 37.225 nmol/L in control group, 242.61 ± 43.16 nmol/L in HFD group, p = 0.014) and taurodeoxycholic acid (TDCA) (2.8 ± 0.247 nmol/g in control group, 4.5 ± 0.386 nmol/g in HFD group, p = 0.0018) in plasma and liver tissues, respectively, which were consistent with the increased levels of DCA in intestinal tissues and feces. These changes are correlated to an increase in abundance of genera Blautia, Coprococcus, Intestinimonas, Lactococcus, Roseburia, and Ruminococcus. Our investigation revealed the fluxes of bile acids and their association with gut microbiota during obesity development and explicated unfavorable impact of HFD on health.

 

[Regina]

No, I think in that case it's the taurine itself. I don't think taurine has much of an effect on bile acid production. More than taurine itself (be it from supplements or meat), the bile acid taurocholate, which is degraded to taurine by the bacteria, seems to be the favorite food of bilophila. In animal models, high-fat diets induce increased bile acid production, and it seems pretty clear that the inflammation and permeability issues are at least partly caused by bacterial changes.

Novel enzyme discovered in intestinal bacteria

"In the human intestinal system, a complex community of microorganisms, the intestinal microbiome, metabolizes food components that have not readily been digested. However, there are also microbial degradation processes occurring in the colon that may have negative effects on the human host."​

"In the research team Microbial Ecology, headed by biologist Dr David Schleheck, a key enzyme was discovered in cooperation with Harvard University (USA). This enzyme is involved in the degradation of the substrate taurine, which is abundant in the colon, by the intestinal bacterium Bilophila wadsworthia. This process generates toxic hydrogen sulfide. Increased hydrogen sulfide production is thought to be associated with higher permeability of the intestinal barrier, higher susceptibility to infections and colon cancer. Moreover, Bilophila wadsworthia can act as a pathogen, for example in appendicitis. The results were published in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."

"Taurine is introduced into the human digestive system primarily through a high-fat diet, but also through meat. A high-fat diet leads to increased production of bile acids, one of which is taurocholate, supporting the digestion of fat. In the large intestine, however, the Bilophila bacteria degrade the taurocholate to taurine, and use the taurine for anaerobic energy generation in the absence of atmospheric oxygen, producing the toxic hydrogen sulfide. This special type of energy metabolism by Bilophila, the "bile-acid loving" organism, had already been described 20 years ago by the research group of biologist Professor Alasdair Cook at the University of Konstanz. In this pathway, a sulphur-containing group of taurine is split off and reduced to hydrogen sulfide. However, until today it was unknown which enzyme in the strictly anaerobic Bilophila bacteria is responsible for this cleavage. The discovery of a novel glycyl radical enzyme has now enabled David Schleheck's research team to close this knowledge gap."​

J Agric Food Chem. 2019 Apr 3;67(13):3624-3632. doi: 10.1021/acs.jafc.9b00249. Epub 2019 Mar 20.
Alterations of Bile Acids and Gut Microbiota in Obesity Induced by High Fat Diet in Rat Model.
Lin H1,2, An Y1, Tang H1, Wang Y3.
Author information
Abstract
Obesity has become a worldwide health issue and has attracted much public attention. In the current study, we aim to elucidate the roles of bile acids and their associations with gut microbiota during obesity development, employing high fat diet (HFD)-induced obesity in a rat model. We collected feces and plasma, liver tissues, and segments of intestinal tissues and a developed bile acids quantification method by employing an ultraperformance liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry detection (UPLC-MS) strategy. We then assessed bile acids fluxes in the biological matrixes collected. We found that, irrespective of dietary regimes, taurine-conjugated bile acids were the dominant species in the liver whereas unconjugated bile acids were in plasma. However, HFD caused slight increases in the total bile acids pool and particularly the increases in the levels of deoxycholic acid (DCA) (138.67 ± 37.225 nmol/L in control group, 242.61 ± 43.16 nmol/L in HFD group, p = 0.014) and taurodeoxycholic acid (TDCA) (2.8 ± 0.247 nmol/g in control group, 4.5 ± 0.386 nmol/g in HFD group, p = 0.0018) in plasma and liver tissues, respectively, which were consistent with the increased levels of DCA in intestinal tissues and feces. These changes are correlated to an increase in abundance of genera Blautia, Coprococcus, Intestinimonas, Lactococcus, Roseburia, and Ruminococcus. Our investigation revealed the fluxes of bile acids and their association with gut microbiota during obesity development and explicated unfavorable impact of HFD on health.

Hmm. I have been suffering an irritated gut for several days (upper gut has an "itis" feel to it). I have been taking a 250mg tudca pill per day. Can you recommend something to counter the hydrogen sulfide? Plus I may take a tetracycline. (I'll stop the tudca too).
It's either the tudca or dealing with demented neighbors who poison my garden.

 

[Kartoffel]

Hmm. I have been suffering an irritated gut for several days (upper gut has an "itis" feel to it). I have been taking a 250mg tudca pill per day. Can you recommend something to counter the hydrogen sulfide? Plus I may take a tetracycline. (I'll stop the tudca too).

I don't know much about tudca supplementation, but since it's a taurine conjugate it might feed the same bacteria as taurochloric acid. Did the problems start when you started taking it? Taking a safe a antibiotic might help, and restricting sulphur sources (mainly the amino acids), and maybe trying to reduce fat intake for a while.

It's either the tudca or dealing with demented neighbors who poison my garden.

What? That sounds like an interesting story...

 

[CLASH]

@Kartoffel
I dont think the rodent models, which seems to be what alot of these ideas are based on, is quite that relevant to the human model. I could be wrong but i think rodent digestion and nurtient needs are very different from human digestion and nutrient needs. Comparing high fat in rodents to high fat in humans, in my mind, is like comparing jet engines to steamboats.

 

[Regina]

I don't know much about tudca supplementation, but since it's a taurine conjugate it might feed the same bacteria as taurochloric acid. Did the problems start when you started taking it? Taking a safe a antibiotic might help, and restricting sulphur sources (mainly the amino acids), and maybe trying to reduce fat intake for a while.



What? That sounds like an interesting story...

It's Florida, where the demented alpha people are loose all over the place. It seems to be a maladapted form of competition. They've watched me kill myself over creating a garden. All it takes is for someone to compliment it for their wife to become enraged. Predictably, the garden must be poisoned to settle the matriarchal doo-doo test. I just need to put up costly fencing.
Anyway, the frustration of this made me think to take taurine to ease "liver chi" kind of idea.
So though I am pretty good at keeping a beekeeper's approach to swarming hornets--easy since the low cognitive function people act like they should be in diapers, this latest provocation is contributing to knots in my stomach.