Ray Peat Interview - June 1st, 2019 With Jodelle - Cortisol, Low Testosterone, Dangers Of A No Sugar

[charlie]

 

[gilson d dantas]

Very good Charlie!!!

 

[milkboi]

Wow, nice! Danny and Haidut dropped another Q&A too.

 

[yerrag]

Another interview by Jodelle. Gotta hear it. I like her interview style.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Just listened to it a few hours ago. Very nice

 

[CLASH]

Starting at 21:00 peat talks about the muscles oxidizing fatty acids and sparing glucose for the brain and heart. I think its really important for people to hear this, especially in the low fat camp who are needing to eat sugars or carbs every hour just to maintain thier blood sugar so they dont get adrenaline rushes.

One of adrenalines main purposes is to release fatty acids from storage as well as glycogen. In my experience in the absence of adequate fatty acids from the diet due to low fat diets the body is forced to release fatty acids from the tissues unless carbs are constantly supplied, in order to provide enough substrate for the muscles, organs and brain to properly function.

In my experience adding long chain saturated and monounsaturated fats not only didnt cause weight gain it causef weight loss and a leaning out while keeping muscles strong and firm. I think this is the testosterone effect peat is reffering to. Hormonal profile trumps calories in/ calories out dogma.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Starting at 21:00 peat talks about the muscles oxidizing fatty acids and sparing glucose for the brain and heart. I think its really important for people to hear this, especially in the low fat camp who are needing to eat sugars or carbs every hour just to maintain thier blood sugar so they dont get adrenaline rushes.

One of adrenalines main purposes is to release fatty acids from storage as well as glycogen. In my experience in the absence of adequate fatty acids from the diet due to low fat diets the body is forced to release fatty acids from the tissues unless carbs are constantly supplied, in order to provide enough substrate for the muscles, organs and brain to properly function.

In my experience adding long chain saturated and monounsaturated fats not only didnt cause weight gain it causef weight loss and a leaning out while keeping muscles strong and firm. I think this is the testosterone effect peat is reffering to. Hormonal profile trumps calories in/ calories out dogma.

Peat also talks briefly in this interview about the amino-acid content of milk, noting that it indeed contains more tryptophan and cysteine than what's ideal. He says combining milk with gelatin solves that problem, but many forum users would beg to differ. I feel like it's still repeated on the forum that meat has too much phosphorous and too much of the inflammatory amino-acids. I think they mean well, and I initially thought too that meat had way more of these substances than milk or cheese, but when I looked at the composition of these foods and compared them well, I found that not to be true: meat has way less tryptophan than milk or cheese, and about the same amount of methionine. Milk does have less cysteine, but cheese has pretty much the same amount. Regarding phosphorous, if you get 100 grams of protein from milk, you'll get around 2,7 grams of phosphorous, but 100 grams of protein in the form of meat will only provide 900mg of this mineral. Yes, meat has very little calcium, but that is easy to supplement, and if you use a mineral water that is very rich in calcium, you don't even need to supplement. Fructose also lowers phosphate, so does niacinamide( which meat has a lot of).

Btw, I have been experimenting with fattier cuts of meat for the past few weeks, and, although at the beginning I felt a little off, I now have been feeling really good in the chest area. Maybe it's related to the gallbladder. I've been breathing more easily too. And I can go longer between meals if I need to. So far so good.

 

[CLASH]

@Rafael Lao Wai
Ground beef actually has a lower methionine content and a way high glycine content, atleast according to cronometer. Its one of the best protein sources I’ve seen. For all the other sources, supplementing a little collagen can go along way, so its not such a difficult fix, as long as you tolerate collagen.

In my experience, when first starting out with higher fat a few things have to happen:

1) the gallbladder is cleared, especially if you’ve been on a low fat diet for a while

2) the small intestine is cleared of bacteria by the bile acids and fatty acids

3) the liver may need to adjust

4) the colon has to adjust because fat is a great stimulator of the intestine overall and atleast in my experience helps to keep bowel regularity pretty significantly

5) increased androgens and a shedding of water weight due to the decrease in gut inflammation and the increased androgens.

Overall these can lead to symptoms when first starting but after a few days things normalize and the benefits start to come in.

 

[Cirion]

I will give this a listen tomorrow. Sounds interesting.

Hormonal profile trumps calories in/ calories out dogma.

CLASH I know you and I don't see eye to eye on optimal diet but it is always nice to see someone else acknowledge that calories in calories out model is garbage and hormones and metabolism trumps all. We do agree that beef is awesome though as a protein source!

Even though I really disagree with you, at the end of the day, truths matter to me more than me being right. That's why I am curious if you'd like to start collecting data similar to myself - body temps, pulses, weight fluctuations, etc? It'd be interesting to look at, and compare to what I'm finding on a high carb low fat diet to find out which is truly better objectively rather than speculating and making subjective comparisons.

Starting at 21:00 peat talks about the muscles oxidizing fatty acids and sparing glucose for the brain and heart. I think its really important for people to hear this, especially in the low fat camp who are needing to eat sugars or carbs every hour just to maintain thier blood sugar so they dont get adrenaline rushes.

One of adrenalines main purposes is to release fatty acids from storage as well as glycogen. In my experience in the absence of adequate fatty acids from the diet due to low fat diets the body is forced to release fatty acids from the tissues unless carbs are constantly supplied, in order to provide enough substrate for the muscles, organs and brain to properly function.

You're right, but when you're fat, some amount of body-fat loss is mandatory, so yes, some (a lot in some cases) of fat needs to be liberated from body fat stores to lose it. You're gonna liberate that fat one way or another to lose it, whether you're on low-fat or a higher-fat diet, so I don't understand the argument presented here. Also I definitely have found you need roughly 40 gram (or at least I do) of fat a day on average, so I certainly don't promote a zero fat diet, just not 100-200 a day. I think Ray eats around 60 a day? Pretty close to me.

He says combining milk with gelatin solves that problem, but many forum users would beg to differ

Yeah I have done the math, and gelatin is simply not enough to overcome the tryptophan in milk. Not if milk is your primary protein source at least. maybe if you limit it to a cup or two. Milk remains the one thing I don't see eye to eye on Peat with. You can't turn a Fernstrom ratio of say 0.06 into something reasonable with gelatin, you just can't. Unless you want to eat 100 gram of gelatin in a day, which is just silly.

 

[CLASH]

@Cirion
I’m cool with not seeing eye to eye on the info. Its just info to me, were all figuring our own sh*t out and I’m definetly not an authority. Just some assh*le on the internet sharing my experience.

As for the metrics the only thing that would change would be my temp. My weight is the same every morning (188-189) and the same every night (185). Its been this way for a year. My pulse upon waking is pretty much always 60bpm and it raises into the 70-80s after meals. My temp after meals always goes up into the 98’s, sometimes to 99.0, but if i havent slept that much then it doesnt usually go up that much, maybe mid 98’s. I tracked my pulse and temp for about 2 months before I got tired of it. I guage my overall health more on how i feel, my libido, mental function, digestion, ability to workout and recover and my symtpoms like hairloss (which has completely stopped for a while now).

I think the fat being liberated by adrenaline is different than the fat being eaten exogenously and used by the muscles via enhanced fat oxidation from androgens. I dont even focus on the idea of fat being oxidized from tissues in terms of losing weight, i think thats besides the point entirely. I think the hormonal environment is way more important and I think that low fat diets wreck the hormonal environment. I think if enough fat is eaten, even with a fat person, androgens can be raised, cortisol and estrogen lowered and the fat will literally melt off within a few weeks. I doubt most of it is fat anyway, i think alot of it is water weight in the tissues from a shitty hormonal environment. I was fat at one point, 220lbs at probably 20% bodyfat. Lost all the weight in 2 weeks after dropping milk and fixing my diet. Literally pissed it out. My libido came back right away, my digestion cleared up and my acne went away. Hairloss slowed significantly.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion
I’m cool with not seeing eye to eye on the info. Its just info to me, were all figuring our own sh*t out and I’m definetly not an authority. Just some assh*le on the internet sharing my experience.

As for the metrics the only thing that would change would be my temp. My weight is the same every morning (188-189) and the same every night (185). Its been this way for a year. My pulse upon waking is pretty much always 60bpm and it raises into the 70-80s after meals. My temp after meals always goes up into the 98’s, sometimes to 99.0, but if i havent slept that much then it doesnt usually go up that much, maybe mid 98’s. I tracked my pulse and temp for about 2 months before I got tired of it. I guage my overall health more on how i feel, my libido, mental function, digestion, ability to workout and recover and my symtpoms like hairloss (which has completely stopped for a while now).

Yeah no worries. We're all here to learn and get better (or more optimized).

Yeah I have noticed sleep is a major impactor on waking temp/pulses. If I consistently am sleep deprived, I'll end up feeling like dog**** no matter how good my diet is and have temps in the 97F pulse in the 50-60 range etc. Yeh 60 bpm waking pulse is a tad on the low side. Ray has said people with high IQ's tend to have resting pulses in the 80s, it's his quotes that have made me aim for the 85 mark. I can understand being tired of tracking though, it's certainly tedious, but I have learned so much by doing so. Using symptoms to gauge progress is definitely fair but it's a little more difficult to make full conclusions that way in my experience. You're in a different situation than me, being already lean, I'm completely open to the idea that the ideal diet to eat when lean vs. really overweight being a little different is not only reasonable, but also very likely.

I think the fat being liberated by adrenaline is different than the fat being eaten exogenously and used by the muscles via enhanced fat oxidation from androgens. I dont even focus on the idea of fat being oxidized from tissues in terms of losing weight, i think thats besides the point entirely. I think the hormonal environment is way more important and I think that low fat diets wreck the hormonal environment. I think if enough fat is eaten, even with a fat person, androgens can be raised, cortisol and estrogen lowered and the fat will literally melt off within a few weeks. I doubt most of it is fat anyway, i think alot of it is water weight in the tissues from a shitty hormonal environment. I was fat at one point, 220lbs at probably 20% bodyfat. Lost all the weight in 2 weeks after dropping milk and fixing my diet. Literally pissed it out. My libido came back right away, my digestion cleared up and my acne went away. Hairloss slowed significantly.

Oh I agree, fat burned from bodyfat is absolutely different than fat you eat, but again, fat is gonna need to be lost one way or another whether its in a healthy hormonal environment or not (it doesn't just disappear, it has to be metabolized in some form or fashion). Yeah like I say, going too far under 40 gram of fat a day turned out to be troublesome for me. You do need at least some SFA's to buffer against the PUFA's you are releasing from bodyfat stores.

But I agree w/ the hormonal environment and everything you say there. And I'm using temps, pulses etc to gauge how my hormonal environment is (roughly). Once I can get 98.6F waking temp and 85 bpm waking pulse every day, that's when I know I've accomplished the ideal hormonal environment (and weight loss will follow automatically). The water weight is absolutely connected to hormones and definitely agree on the milk. And for me, when I consistently achieve those temps and pulses, I definitely also feel good (giving me the subjective proof I need also). I had a 3-day stint a couple months ago where my average temp for all 3 days was 98.45F (almost perfect) and 90 bpm ("better than" perfect). I felt WAY better. So I know for me, I've proven to myself that it's all connected. At the end of the day, as you say, metabolism is key, and i use pulse/temps as my main biomarkers.

I'd LOVE to also track CO2 levels, with a Capnograph, as that's another strong biomarker, and I probably will one day. Those things cost up to $5000 or even $10,000 though...

 

[Tenacity]

@CLASH You mentioned in your post about low fat diets cause the need to constantly be eating carbs. In my experience, that is true... unless you eat the carbs in a 'whole form.' I've been experimenting with a Tsimane-style diet, 72/14/14 macros, and I've noticed that I can go longer without food. I wonder if this is because of the fruit and potato fibre prolonging the absorption time of the carbohydrate. I bet most people complaining of that issue here consume carbs in the form of milk, juice and white sugar. So, I don't think low-fat diets necessarily cause that issue per se. Getting carbs from clementines, rice, potatoes and a smaller amount of milk seems to be better than juice, sugar and a larger amount of milk. I guess that shouldn't be so surprising.

 

[Amazoniac]

Hi, carlos! Did you experience guilt when posting an interview in place of Daniel? I can tell you that for me it feels like cheating to use a link that wasn't shared by him. Soon enough he won't be able to relax for knowing that people won't wait for the official press. It's possible for me not to pass this one, but what if I'm punished for breaking the natural order of things? What if he feels used this entire time, being treated as a mere replaceable vehicle? I think that I'll go with dice to lift my choice responsibility.

 

[Fletcher]

This is a very good interview, RP sharing some great knowledge on hormones etc. with great clarity.

 

[Cirion]

Just finished listening. Good stuff, I just still can't agree with Ray on milk, and I was also disappointed when he said you only need like 100-300 grams of carbs a day. It sounds like Ray ascribes to a low calorie diet (When you consider he also likes low fat diets. I do also, but not the low carbs he suggests.) Seems counter-against what some of the other things he says in other articles - 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse. You can't achieve those on only 300 gram carbs a day, let alone 100. I think that's probably why most people here are failing on low fat - if you also eat low carb, that's definitely gonna cause problems and the very stress reactions he advocates against in this discussion. My data is showing I need upwards of 900g carbs a day (over three times what he recommends) to achieve 98.6F temps and 85BPM pulses.

 

[Dobbler]

Just finished listening. Good stuff, I just still can't agree with Ray on milk, and I was also disappointed when he said you only need like 100-300 grams of carbs a day. It sounds like Ray ascribes to a low calorie diet (When you consider he also likes low fat diets. I do also, but not the low carbs he suggests.) Seems counter-against what some of the other things he says in other articles - 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse. You can't achieve those on only 300 gram carbs a day, let alone 100. I think that's probably why most people here are failing on low fat - if you also eat low carb, that's definitely gonna cause problems and the very stress reactions he advocates against in this discussion. My data is showing I need upwards of 900g carbs a day (over three times what he recommends) to achieve 98.6F temps and 85BPM pulses.

Please post what you eat daily if you are getting 900g carbs, i heavily doubt that. 100g of carbs is very little that i agree with, but 300g is more than enough for most people.

 

[Cirion]

Please post what you eat daily if you are getting 900g carbs, i heavily doubt that. 100g of carbs is very little that i agree with, but 300g is more than enough for most people.

This is what I had yesterday and today I had 98.5F waking temp and 80 BPM waking pulse.

I have been collecting data for 2 months now, and continuing to get more every day. Here is what I have so far on carbs vs. waking temps and pulses. I had no occurrence of days with a proper waking pulse or temp with less than around 700 grams of carbs. I have more plots in my thread I made here if curious. Determining Effect Of Diet On Metabolism And Weight Loss/Gain Through Data Collection

 

[charlie]

Go long maple syrup stocks.

*not financial advice.

 

[LiveWire]

This is what I had yesterday and today I had 98.5F waking temp and 80 BPM waking pulse.

View attachment 13447

I have been collecting data for 2 months now, and continuing to get more every day. Here is what I have so far on carbs vs. waking temps and pulses. I had no occurrence of days with a proper waking pulse or temp with less than around 700 grams of carbs. I have more plots in my thread I made here if curious. Determining Effect Of Diet On Metabolism And Weight Loss/Gain Through Data Collection

View attachment 13448
View attachment 13449

Cirion, you run a daily 1600 calorie surplus and yet you wonder why you are morbidly obese???

What am I missing here??

 

[Cirion]

Go long maple syrup stocks.

*not financial advice.

Maple syrup is life. LOL. I am spending so much money at the grocery on it!!