Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[InChristAlone]

These are foods I commonly eat but each day is different. I eat ruminant meat basically everyday, rice, white potatoes, lots of low A fruits, juices and jelly, maple syrup, honey and some white vegetables, mushrooms, oxtail and occasional egg whites, turkey, scallops, tilapia, gluten free white bread, white corn, black and white beans. I use olive oil and small amount of butter. Cocoa powder for making hot chocolate (with water and sugar)! I'm doing organic as much as possible. I hope I remembered everything!
I copied the above from an earlier post in this thread. My skin wasn’t my primary concern but it became extremely dry and flaky yet oily at the same time last year with lips cracking especially in the corners. I had a few unusual red spots and some that had been around for a couple years that are now gone. My hair was thinning, extremely oily and growing in kinky. I had dermatitis herpetiformis from celiac on both elbows that would flare up slightly and randomly despite not eating gluten. My finger prints were atrophied indicating inflammation and they healed within a month or two.
I basically just stopped eating high A and carotene food to detox. I have donated blood 3 times and do UV light 1-2 times per week since it’s winter.

Very interesting! Cracking in the corners of the mouth is riboflavin deficiency, but before you went on a low vitamin A diet you were eating liver right? I mean Chris Masterjohn basically says eat liver if you are deficient, but if you solved all those problems by avoiding A seems to me like suggesting liver to someone who may be loaded up with retinol is not a good idea!

 

[Blossom]

Very interesting! Cracking in the corners of the mouth is riboflavin deficiency, but before you went on a low vitamin A diet you were eating liver right? I mean Chris Masterjohn basically says eat liver if you are deficient, but if you solved all those problems by avoiding A seems to me like suggesting liver to someone who may be loaded up with retinol is not a good idea!

Yes. I suspect my inflamed gut kept me from absorbing nutrients adequately or maybe there was a higher demand due the inflammation or perhaps both!

 

[Orion]

Very interesting! Cracking in the corners of the mouth is riboflavin deficiency, but before you went on a low vitamin A diet you were eating liver right? I mean Chris Masterjohn basically says eat liver if you are deficient, but if you solved all those problems by avoiding A seems to me like suggesting liver to someone who may be loaded up with retinol is not a good idea!

Sounds like as vitamin A decreases, more Bs, D, E, K will be available.

 

[sunraiser]

Very interesting! Cracking in the corners of the mouth is riboflavin deficiency, but before you went on a low vitamin A diet you were eating liver right? I mean Chris Masterjohn basically says eat liver if you are deficient, but if you solved all those problems by avoiding A seems to me like suggesting liver to someone who may be loaded up with retinol is not a good idea!

Cracking in mouth corners can be lots of things...

Iron, folate, zinc, b12 and lots lots more. Let's be honest on a peat diet it's far more likely to be iron!

 

[Blossom]

Sounds like as vitamin A decreases, more Bs, D, E, K will be available.

Feels like it too. I used to use supplemental B complex from HealthNatura but after a couple months I didn't feel like I needed it anymore.

 

[Amazoniac]

The "rules" of understanding Poison/"Vitamin A" toxicity in the research.

- Retinil - Liquid Vitamin A

I'm sure he's aware of the document (1991) because his hair analysis system is based on their work.

There's a paragraph on prostaglandins. Is it another consideration for immunomodulation?

 

[Steven Bussinger]

These are foods I commonly eat but each day is different. I eat ruminant meat basically everyday, rice, white potatoes, lots of low A fruits, juices and jelly, maple syrup, honey and some white vegetables, mushrooms, oxtail and occasional egg whites, turkey, scallops, tilapia, gluten free white bread, white corn, black and white beans. I use olive oil and small amount of butter. Cocoa powder for making hot chocolate (with water and sugar)! I'm doing organic as much as possible. I hope I remembered everything!
I copied the above from an earlier post in this thread. My skin wasn’t my primary concern but it became extremely dry and flaky yet oily at the same time last year with lips cracking especially in the corners. I had a few unusual red spots and some that had been around for a couple years that are now gone. My hair was thinning, extremely oily and growing in kinky. I had dermatitis herpetiformis from celiac on both elbows that would flare up slightly and randomly despite not eating gluten. My finger prints were atrophied indicating inflammation and they healed within a month or two.
I basically just stopped eating high A and carotene food to detox. I have donated blood 3 times and do UV light 1-2 times per week since it’s winter.

I've been listening to CMJ's recent podcast on riboflavin today, so it's very fresh in my mind. In addition to inflamed and cracking corners of the mouth, he also cites flaky yet oily skin as a major symptom of B2 deficiency. The kinky hair is probably related to vitamin C and/or copper. Nathan Hatch says to take B2 in order lessen difficulties with gluten, but I'm not sure on the reasoning behind it.

I think I unwittingly gave myself a B2 deficiency last week. For a couple weeks, I was putting my milk out in the sun. CMJ mentions exactly this issue, since they switched milk containers to opaque cartoons instead of transparent glass in order to protect riboflavin, which is destroyed by light. Not only is the riboflavin destroyed, but riboflavin analogues that block the action of riboflavin are created. I think the riboflavin blocking is what actually got to me, and not a simple deficiency. I get 2x RDA of B2 in my diet, and that's before I add in nutritional yeast or Energin. However, if it's being blocked by "mutated" riboflavin, I can't fix that.

At first I noticed that my lips were extremely dry, they would dry out even after a heavy application of lanolin oil. Then I got the inflamed and flaky mouth corners and a couple zits on my chin. Also, some canker sores reappeared. I had a single canker sore for a couple of weeks, but it went away and then came back with a buddy after a week. My gums also became red, despite taking the same amount of vitamin C that had always solved bleeding gums for me. (The red gums are also a symptom of B2 deficiency). It's possible that my body was depleted of the C it needed to fight the cold I had.

As I've said (or at least hinted at) before, all B vitamin deficiencies present in the skin. So I started looking for specific connections. I knew my diet was deficient in folate, since I was no longer drinking OJ, which was probably my primary source before. So I resolved to have a can of beans once a week (maybe more if needed). Lots of sources mentioned B12 deficiency as a culprit, but my B12 intake is 3x RDA every day, sometimes even more. One source mentioned zinc and that made sense in light of what we've been talking about here. My zinc intake has dropped over the past couple of months, since I wasn't consuming oysters as often. I seem to have a fairly high need for it. Likely my cold also dropped zinc availability, as well.

I was listening to CMJ's AMA podcast and one of the questions is how to not be dependent on huge doses of baking soda to alkalinize. He said that zinc lessened his need for the baking soda he was using to recover from exercise. I need to go back and listen more closely, because I think this is huge. I think it deserves its own segment, not to be tucked away in a AMA.

I get DOMS far more easily than I think is appropriate, and if zinc plays a big role in acid buffering, then it is probably yet another reason implying I need more zinc.

Anyway, I started taking a zinc supplement daily and my skin symptoms are completely gone, my gums are pink again, and my canker sores are diminishing. Most sources say that canker sores are a result of an acidic environment.

 

[InChristAlone]

- Retinil - Liquid Vitamin A

I'm sure he's aware of the document (1991) because his hair analysis system is based on their work.

There's a paragraph on prostaglandins. Is it another consideration for immunomodulation?

I'm going through the references and it's not very convincing. This study: Endemic goiter with iodine sufficiency: a possible role for the consumption of pearl millet in the etiology of endemic goiter. - PubMed - NCBI claims vitamin A deficiency was found associated with goiter. But this is the conclusion: "consumption of millet, vitamin A deficiency, and protein-energy malnutrition are possible etiologic factors in this endemic area."
Sounds like just malnutrition. Which is the case in a lot of vitamin A deficiency studies.

"During development, a deficiency of vitamin A leads to abnormalities in dentine formation and bone growth." I have serious doubts about this. My younger son I was eating according to WAPF which meant cod liver oil, liver, raw milk, butter, and eggs. I had no shortage of multiple sources of retinol. And yet he has the worst teeth I've ever seen. The enamel has melted away on multiple teeth. They call that enamel hypoplasia. And I have reason to suspect it's caused by excess A. There is definitely some kind of paradox going on with the study of vitamin A.

Also remember Garrett used vitamin A with his clients for years and unfortunately he didn't have raving reviews of his practice back then, probably because people aren't having long term success with using vitamin A, but they continually try to ramp it up, if 10,000 isn't working, why not try 50,000?

 

[InChristAlone]

I've been listening to CMJ's recent podcast on riboflavin today, so it's very fresh in my mind. In addition to inflamed and cracking corners of the mouth, he also cites flaky yet oily skin as a major symptom of B2 deficiency. The kinky hair is probably related to vitamin C and/or copper. Nathan Hatch says to take B2 in order lessen difficulties with gluten, but I'm not sure on the reasoning behind it.

I think I unwittingly gave myself a B2 deficiency last week. For a couple weeks, I was putting my milk out in the sun. CMJ mentions exactly this issue, since they switched milk containers to opaque cartoons instead of transparent glass in order to protect riboflavin, which is destroyed by light. Not only is the riboflavin destroyed, but riboflavin analogues that block the action of riboflavin are created. I think the riboflavin blocking is what actually got to me, and not a simple deficiency. I get 2x RDA of B2 in my diet, and that's before I add in nutritional yeast or Energin. However, if it's being blocked by "mutated" riboflavin, I can't fix that.

At first I noticed that my lips were extremely dry, they would dry out even after a heavy application of lanolin oil. Then I got the inflamed and flaky mouth corners and a couple zits on my chin. Also, some canker sores reappeared. I had a single canker sore for a couple of weeks, but it went away and then came back with a buddy after a week. My gums also became red, despite taking the same amount of vitamin C that had always solved bleeding gums for me. (The red gums are also a symptom of B2 deficiency). It's possible that my body was depleted of the C it needed to fight the cold I had.

As I've said (or at least hinted at) before, all B vitamin deficiencies present in the skin. So I started looking for specific connections. I knew my diet was deficient in folate, since I was no longer drinking OJ, which was probably my primary source before. So I resolved to have a can of beans once a week (maybe more if needed). Lots of sources mentioned B12 deficiency as a culprit, but my B12 intake is 3x RDA every day, sometimes even more. One source mentioned zinc and that made sense in light of what we've been talking about here. My zinc intake has dropped over the past couple of months, since I wasn't consuming oysters as often. I seem to have a fairly high need for it. Likely my cold also dropped zinc availability, as well.

I was listening to CMJ's AMA podcast and one of the questions is how to not be dependent on huge doses of baking soda to alkalinize. He said that zinc lessened his need for the baking soda he was using to recover from exercise. I need to go back and listen more closely, because I think this is huge. I think it deserves its own segment, not to be tucked away in a AMA.

I get DOMS far more easily than I think is appropriate, and if zinc plays a big role in acid buffering, then it is probably yet another reason implying I need more zinc.

Anyway, I started taking a zinc supplement daily and my skin symptoms are completely gone, my gums are pink again, and my canker sores are diminishing. Most sources say that canker sores are a result of an acidic environment.

Good thoughts.

Why were you putting the milk in the sun?! were you hoping to charge it up like structured water?

I have only had the cracks in the corner once, after my first birth I had lost a lot of blood and became kinda sick, I stayed in bed with my baby for like 2 months, I was eating a lot of cereal because it was easy to grab no preparation required. Not sure if that had anything to do with it, but I wasn't eating well.

I also would be prone to canker sores throughout my life. Those have nearly been gone for yrs now and my diet has not been very high in b vitamins or zinc at all. And I have eliminated all fortified foods. Stopped drinking milk a few yrs ago as well.

All of this just leads me to believe people need to stop with the vitamin A supplements and stop overconsuming it! The need for large amounts of zinc could be explained by this!

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Good thoughts.

Why were you putting the milk in the sun?! were you hoping to charge it up like structured water?

I have only had the cracks in the corner once, after my first birth I had lost a lot of blood and became kinda sick, I stayed in bed with my baby for like 2 months, I was eating a lot of cereal because it was easy to grab no preparation required. Not sure if that had anything to do with it, but I wasn't eating well.

I also would be prone to canker sores throughout my life. Those have nearly been gone for yrs now and my diet has not been very high in b vitamins or zinc at all. And I have eliminated all fortified foods. Stopped drinking milk a few yrs ago as well.

All of this just leads me to believe people need to stop with the vitamin A supplements and stop overconsuming it! The need for large amounts of zinc could be explained by this!

This the first time I've had canker sores in years. I've been decreasing A for months, not increasing. Today I logged only 1500IU, which is pretty close to your own efforts if I remember correctly. I've also been taking 2 grams of taurine a day, and 400IU vitamin E a few times a week. Both are supposed to "detox" A. And yes, I've been eating plenty of protein.

Is that how the "detox" symptoms work? I get new symptoms I haven't been dealing with?

I don't think it's so simple.

 

[InChristAlone]

This the first time I've had canker sores in years. I've been decreasing A for months, not increasing. Today I logged only 1500IU, which is pretty close to your own efforts if I remember correctly. I've also been taking 2 grams of taurine a day, and 400IU vitamin E a few times a week. Both are supposed to "detox" A. And yes, I've been eating plenty of protein.

Is that how the "detox" symptoms work? I get new symptoms I haven't been dealing with?

I don't think it's so simple.

I didn't know you were experimenting with this! That's cool. Yeah symptoms can pop up as it's pushed out. But I wonder how low you have to go for that to happen. I'm not so sure 1,000-2,000 IU's is low enough as the RDA is like 2300.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I'm reading Generative Energy right now. These are from Chapter Five.

"Rules of structure-making are likely to be very complex, but rules of stability are relatively simple. "

"There is a mystique in our scientific culture called Reductionism. It reduces the explanation for something to a description of its parts, and the ways the parts interact. A relatively small number of "elements" and "laws" are used to explain a great range of specific phenomena."

"An inference that something is generally true, based on some specific examples, is a matter of judgment, rather than of formal logic. Different people may draw different inferences. An intelligent hypothesis is based on a lifetime of intelligent inferences. "

"If the trick that explains the whole can be found in the nature of the parts, there is no problem, but problems arise when the reductionist claims that we already have the kind of knowledge of the parts that can adequately explain the whole. "

 

[Amazoniac]

I'm going through the references and it's not very convincing. This study: Endemic goiter with iodine sufficiency: a possible role for the consumption of pearl millet in the etiology of endemic goiter. - PubMed - NCBI claims vitamin A deficiency was found associated with goiter. But this is the conclusion: "consumption of millet, vitamin A deficiency, and protein-energy malnutrition are possible etiologic factors in this endemic area."
Sounds like just malnutrition. Which is the case in a lot of vitamin A deficiency studies.

"During development, a deficiency of vitamin A leads to abnormalities in dentine formation and bone growth." I have serious doubts about this. My younger son I was eating according to WAPF which meant cod liver oil, liver, raw milk, butter, and eggs. I had no shortage of multiple sources of retinol. And yet he has the worst teeth I've ever seen. The enamel has melted away on multiple teeth. They call that enamel hypoplasia. And I have reason to suspect it's caused by excess A. There is definitely some kind of paradox going on with the study of vitamin A.

Also remember Garrett used vitamin A with his clients for years and unfortunately he didn't have raving reviews of his practice back then, probably because people aren't having long term success with using vitamin A, but they continually try to ramp it up, if 10,000 isn't working, why not try 50,000?

How do you claim that I chase your posts? There are various contradictions that I just ignore, here's an example of some that I was..

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"What kind of dosage does that translate to in humans? I really don't think lab rats are good indicators. Are lab rats even given access to UV light? Because humans need sunlight to thrive."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"Yes I see that, but what about humans who are given ample accesss to sunlight? Would it show the same toxic effects to the thyroid? I am not so interested in in vitro and lab albino rats. As Peat has said he notices the toxicity of A when under low UV conditions. I think those who are experiencing the toxic effects should take a vacation to the tropics. I think this thread has given me more cause for concern with A in the winter and to never supplement it."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"I'm so glad you are doing the mouse study! Can't wait to see how it turns out. If they end up surviving, the real test would be having babies and those babies growing up with no vitamin A either."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"Sounds like you have done your research! Excited to see what happens, are there are any ideas about how long a rodent can live without vitamin A? They can live 2 years so this could be a long experiment! Might need to make babies to test if fertility is in any way impacted, plus we don't know how long vitamin A could possibly be retained, so many generations might need to be experimented with. Which would probably be the fastest experiment since their gestation is so short."​

And you've positioned yourself before as not taking rat experiments seriously and believing that they're not significant for humanoids. Yet here you aware cheering for someone doing it, not annoyed that animals are apparently kept under artificial conditions (light), cages are not elevated so that their crap falls, and so on. It's doubling the standards.

Not sure if the Yi read these (no sarcasm)..

- Diet in Vitamin A Research

"Mice are well known to be difficult to deplete of vitamin A." "One reason for the difficult of depleting mice of vitamin A may be related to the practice of animal research facilities, especially those housing transgenic animals, to feed an autoclavable nonpurified diet with extra vitamin A (see above). Another reason could be related to the efficiency of recycling retinoids. Both mice and rats practice coprophagy (in which feces are consumed), which may serve to conserve retinol even after a vitamin A-deficient diet has been imposed. Young mice are said to practice “vigorous coprophagy” (39), which may increase the recycling and delay the onset of deficiency. The type of housing used for mice (typically shoebox-type cages with multiple animals per cage) may enable more recycling of feces, although this is a conjecture. Hanging wire cages, sometimes used for rats, reduce but do not totally eliminate coprophagy, but this type of caging is seldom used for mice."​

- The production of experimental vitamin A deficiency in rats and mice

"The main source of difficulty in the regular production of vitamin A deficiency in any species is the ability of the body, and particularly the liver, to accumulate large stores of the vitamin during periods of dietary plenitude. For this reason months, or even years, may be necessary to induce signs of hypovitaminosis A in adult human subjects, as found in the well-known wartime experiment in Sheffield (Hume & Krebs, 1949). Even with rats novices in vitamin A research may attempt to induce deficiency in adult animals, or in weanlings which have already had ample opportunity to accumulate the vitamin during lactation. Disappointment is inevitable when after the restriction of the animals for months to a deficient diet they still show no signs of avitaminosis A. With mice the need to prevent access to vitamin A during early life may be even more urgent, since this animal, for reasons unknown, is much more resistant than the rat to the effects of deprivation (McCarthy & Cerecedo, 1952)."​

What they do is maintain a supply of retinoic acid (it's irreversible to storage) and cut it abruptly so that the animals don't have the chance adapt to it by prioritizing functions according to what's available and slowing down whatever needs to. However! There are jobs that retinoic acid can't do.

"The acid restores growth and good general health in deficient rats although allowing neither normal vision (Dowling & Wald, 1960) nor normal reproduction (Thompson, Howell & Pitt, 1964). Since retinoic acid is not stored in the body in significant amounts, signs of deficiency, such as xerophthalmia and loss of bodyweight, reappear soon after dosing has been discontinued."​

- Preparation of vitamin A-deficient rats and mice

"As the animals become depleted, they usually become dissatisfied with their diet. This dissatisfaction may be expressed in several ways including urination on the food, excessive wasting of the diet, or refusal to eat the diet. Many of these problems can be avoided by using the solid diet described above. A few chunks of diet can be offered each day in a feeder suspended from the top of the cage. Wastage of the diet will be substantially reduced, and clean food will be available if the animal should decide to eat the diet later in the day."​

The chances that something is escaping the attention might not be worth years of needing a controlled setting, it takes one slip to invalidade months and months of effort that is unjustified (in my opinion) for the following reasons.

What's the point of doing it? To find out if it's essential? Because if so, it's a waste of time.
Reassurance for an extreme and prolonged deprivation?

There's no need to play god on animals and define their life for entertainment, just starve yourself of it for a few years and you'll feel if it's essential or not. Reserves are vast, it can take a good while to reach depletion; and the more you stay on an inadequate diet, I suppose the harder it gets to deplete it since the body must start conserving it.

There are human experiments that are quite detailed available (having techmology to assist is a plus), some were posted already. The following one involved none other than Hans Krebs (I wish he knew back then that one day it was going to be proven as toxic):

- Vitamin A requirement of human adults - An experimental study of vitamin A deprivation in man

Spoiler

"The investigation was made on volunteer conscientious objectors at the Sorby Research Institute, twenty men and three women, mostly between the ages of 20 and 30, cooperating in it. War conditions made it doubtful how long the inquiry could be continued, and for this and other reasons it was considered necessary to start the volunteers'on the experimental diet with no preliminary period of observation. The plan adopted was to give sixteen of them a diet virtually devoid of vitamin A and carotene until unmistakable signs of deficiency appeared, and then to determine what dose of vitamin A or carotene was needed to ensure recovery to normal. The remaining seven volunteers served as positive controls, receiving the same diet as the main group, but with a prophylactic supplement of either vitamin A or carotene from various sources. The experiment began in July, 1942, and was expected to be complete in six to eight months."

"In fact it lasted two years and even at the end not all the original expectations had been realized. After eight months of deprivation there was still no discernible change in the volunteers beyond a lowering of the blood carotenoids; this, though useless as a criterion of depletion, was at least evidence to the sceptical that the diet was not being evaded. Gradually there began to appear a drop in the vitamin A level of the plasma and a deterioration in the capacity for dark adaptation, the two changes that proved to be the only reliable criteria of depletion. By these criteria no more than three men could be judged "unmistakably" deficient and hence suitable for therapeutic tests, although several of the volunteers persisted with the diet for more than 18 months and one for over two years. No other unequivocal signs of deficiency were found in any of the sixteen deprived subjects at any time during the whole course of the experiment. Such abnormalities as follicular hyperkeratosis, conjunctival degenerations or undue fatigue-all commonly associated or thought to be associated with vitamin A deficiency-were either absent or equally present in the deprived and the non-deprived or present in the same subjects both before and after depletion. Two cases of tuberculosis occurred among the volunteers but it was not possible to determine whether their occurrence during the experimental period was more than a coincidence."

"The prolonged delay before the onset of nutritional changes, their sparse incidence and undramatic character aroused in the investigators a feeling of surprise which is in itself a measure of the novelty and value of the results achieved. It is clear that Vitamin A deficiency is much less easily or rapidly induced in hitherto well-fed adults than has previously been supposed. This is a conclusion of practical importance, but it must not be overlooked that the scope of the present investigation was restricted and that its results are not applicable to the needs of children, pregnant or nursing mothers, or the chronically undernourished."

"A few similar experiments had been attempted before. At the time when the present experiment was planned the most comprehensive had been that of @Wagner83 (1940) who reported that unmistakable signs of deficiency developed within 6 months, and were cured by administration of graded doses of vitamin A or carotene. He concluded that the minimum human daily requirement of vitamin A is 2,000 I.U. as a vitamin A concentrate, or 5,000 I.U. as b-carotene. Booher, Callison, and Hewston (1939) recorded unmistakable signs of impaired dark adaptation in five subjects after 16, 27, 29, 39, and 124. days of deprivation. From therapeutic tests they concluded that amounts of vitamin A between 25 and 55 I.U. per kg. bodyweight, or double this as b-carotene, maintained normal dark adaptation."

"Both these and other observations suggested that well-defined signs of vitamin A deficiency would appear within 6 months but, about the time when the present research was begun, a very short account was received of the experiment made by Brenner and Roberts (1942), who found no signs of deficiency in three subjects deprived for 7 1/2 months. The depletion times in the present experiment proved to be even longer."

"In all those who did not receive a supplement of carotene, the first change resulting from the deficient diet was a rapid drop in the carotenoid content of the blood, as previous authors had observed. Within three months the initial average value of 150 "I.U." per 100 ml. of plasma fell to a fairly stable level varying from 12 to 40 "I.U.". Very little, if any, of this residual carotenoid content was due to carotene (see Table XII, p. 37)."

"After about 8 months the plasma value for vitamin A slowly began to decline in most subjects. The capacity for dark adaptation, measured by the rod threshold, deteriorated in all of them during the months December, 1942, and January, February, and March, 1943, but improved without any apparent cause in April, 1943, 9 months from the start of the experiment. This improvement was shown by all, though it was only slight in two whose plasma value for vitamin A was declining fairly fast."

"After 12 months volunteers began to leave the team for reasons unconnected with the experiment. Some of these showed no signs of depletion, but in others the values for vitamin A in the plasma and for the rod threshold suggested the beginning of a decline. Twelve volunteers began a second year of the deficient diet and two of them showed signs of deficiency in the blood value for vitamin A and in the level of the rod threshold, which deteriorated steadily until they were dosed, one after 14 and the other after 17 1/2 months. Besides a rise in the rod threshold these two men showed an increase in the time of transition from cone to rod vision, the initial value being about 8 minutes in each, and the final value about 18 minutes in one and 25 in the other. No other recognized signs of depletion or definite abnormality occurred in these or any of the other subjects at any time."

"After 18 1/2 months only four subjects were still receiving the basal diet unsupplemented and, of these, one was beginning to show definite deterioration in rod threshold, cone-rod transition time, and plasma value for vitamin A, which progressed until therapeutic dosing was begun after 22 months. Of the other three, one continued for 20, one for 21 1/2 and one for 24 1/2 months, without showing any signs of depletion beyond a moderate lowering of the plasma value for vitamin A in two of them; one did not show even this.

The thirteen subjects who completed the experiment without showing unmistakable depletion all received therapeutic doses of vitamin A or carotene, whichever seemed more suitable. In this way as much information as possible was gleaned, though the number of genuinely depleted subjects was far less than had been expected."

"The non-occurrence of the various signs and symptoms ascribed by previous workers to slight vitamin A deficiency should not necessarily be taken as invalidating their statements. Chronic deprivation caused by intakes below the level of requirement over many years, or environmental factors such as temperature and occupational exertions, or age, or additional shortcomings in the diet, all may modify the clinical manifestations of a low vitamin A intake. The present experiment, however, leaves little doubt that, in uncomplicated vitamin A deprivation abruptly initiated in young adults with good liver reserves, the earliest definite signs of depletion are defective night vision, with a raised rod threshold and prolonged cone-rod transition time, and a fall of the value for vitamin A in the blood plasma."

"When the experiment was planned it was hoped that all, or most, of the sixteen subjects who received the basal diet without supplements would develop unmistakable signs of deficiency, which could be used as criteria in testing the effectiveness of graded doses of vitamin A and carotene. Unfortunately, only three (Golding, Proctor, and Watson), to whom frequent reference has already been made, behaved in this way. Eight others, who for various reasons had to be dosed with vitamin A or carotene, failed to develop unmistakable signs of deficiency, and the conclusions which can be drawn from observations on them are therefore limited. The remaining five left the experiment prematurely and at such short notice that they could be used only for examining the effects of very large doses of the vitamin."

"If the weight of the adult human liver is taken as 1,500 g., the mean of 324 I.U. vitamin A per g. found for the main civilian group corresponds with a total reserve of about 500,000 I.U. Experiments with rats have shown that it is difficult to predict how long animals with known reserves of vitamin A will survive when restricted to a deficient diet, since there is a tendency for high reserves to be dissipated at a rate much greater than would be consistent with physiological demands alone (Davies and Moore, 1935, 1941). However, the long time taken by the Sorby volunteers to show signs of deficiency suggests that there is no undue waste in the human subject. By the rough expedient of simple arithmetic, therefore, a reserve of 500,000 I.U. should suffice for 200 days if the physiological requirement is 2,500 I.U. daily, or for 400 days if the physiological requirement is 1,250 I.U. daily."

"Between the periods 1931-35 and 1941-44 the intake of vitamin A in the United Kingdom was altered by war-time conditions. The available dairy products had become more evenly distributed throughout the population, the fortification of margarine had become compulsory, and there was a much greater use of vegetables, notably carrots. Children received additional milk, and medication with cod liver oil and vitamin A concentrates was more widespread. The total effect is not easy to assess, but it is not inconceivable that the 1941-44 vitamin A reserves of the population were higher than 10 years previously. The increase in the "central" value for the main group from 220 I.U. per g. in 1931-35 to 324 in 1941-44 might seem at first sight to support this view but the difference in the places from which the specimens came must not be forgotten. When results for Glasgow only are compared, the "central" values of 264 for 1931-35 and 268 for 1941-44 are closely similar. Glasgow, the one place adequately represented by samples in both periods, shows no evidence that a change in the vitamin A reserves took place between the two periods, at least in the main group, and it seems clear that the higher value found in 1941-44 for all localities combined was due to the inclusion of more specimens from regions, notably London, where the reserves appear to be higher than in Glasgow."

Some interesting tables:

"The evidence obtained about the magnitude of the requirement in terms of vitamin A is as follows:

(1) In a therapeutic test on one adequately depleted subject, receiving a daily dose of 1,300 I.U. of a vitamin A concentrate, the deteriorated capacity for dark adaptation was restored slowly to normal. The lowered plasma value for vitamin A also was considerably raised, but not to the level between 100 and 120 I.U. per 100 ml. which is prevalent among the normal members of the population (p. 67). With large doses of vitamin A and an unrestricted diet it subsequently rose to this level.

(2) In prophylactic tests with a daily dose of 2,600 I.U. of vitamin A concentrate, the capacity for dark adaptation of two subjects was maintained for more than a year. The plasma values for vitamin A were maintained throughout, but, as in the above case, they reached levels between 100 and 120 I.U. per 100 ml. only when larger doses of vitamin A and an unrestricted diet were given. The genuineness of the protection in the prophylactic tests would have been better demonstrated if unequivocal signs of deficiency had been less rare in the depleted group. Evidence, though of a rather debatable kind, is however given elsewhere (p. 52) to show that slight signs of deficiency were shown at certain times by all the depleted subjects, but not by those treated prophylactically with vitamin A.

(3) Investigation of the liver reserves of the population of Great Britain in the years 1941-44 yielded a value of 500,000 I.U. for the whole liver, as possibly representative (p. 63). By the simplest method of calculation this should last, at the rate of 2,600 I.U. daily, for about 200 days and, at the rate of 1,300 I.U. daily, for about 400 days. In fact, no subject in the present experiment was markedly depleted in less than 400 days.​

An the facts just marshalled are consistent with a value not greater than 1,300 I.U. daily for the minimum protective dose. Such a dose proved curative for a depleted subject and would therefore in all probability suffice for undepleted subjects. The dose given prophylactically was twice this amount, no dose smaller than 2,600 I.U. having been tested, but the values for plasma vitamin A and capacity for dark adaptation of the two non-depleted subjects were nearly the same as those which were ultimately found with the dose of 1,300 I. U. in the subjects who bad been depleted. None of the three subjects with these doses attained the plasma values for vitamin A of 100 to 120 I.U. per 100 ml., which are prevalent among the general population (p. 67), until after they had been given an unrestricted diet and larger doses of vitamin A; but it is not known whether values as high as these are necessary for optimum health."

"In assessing the minimum protective dose it is certainly relevant to consider the magnitude of the liver reserves in the population of Great Britain and to compare them with the time needed for depleting the reserves in the present experiment. When this is done, the daily expenditure, obtained by the rough expedient of dividing the former value by the latter, is nearer 1,300 than 2,600 I.U."

"What evidence there is thus points to a value of about 1,300 I.U. daily as the minimum protective dose of vitamin A. With this figure as a basis it is necessary to try to fix the larger figure that shall cover the requirement of normal adults with their own inherent variability, enhanced by the variety of their activities and environment, and that shall ensure for them the margin of protection at which it is decided to aim. In the absence of adequate experimental evidence, which could be obtained only by intricate experiments on very large numbers of volunteers, it is difficult to decide whether doubling the dose would confer the maximum improvement in health or whether the dose should be increased fourfold, eightfold, or even more. To satisfy these ill-defined, additional needs and allow a margin of safety, it does not therefore seem too generous approximately to double the minimum protective dose and recommend a round figure of 2,500 I.U. vitamin A daily for the requirement of a normal human adult. Whether this amount is sufficient to allow the accumulation of liver reserves cannot be stated with certainty, but the very adequate liver reserves of the subjects of this experiment cannot have been built up in the past on daily intakes much larger than 2,500 I.U. vitamin A or an equivalent mixture of carotene and vitamin A."

"A warning should be given that the figures of 2,500 I.U. of vitamin A and 7,500 I.U. of carotene for the daily requirement must not be used without discretion. The present work was carried out mainly on healthy males, 20 to 30 years of age. No suggestion is made as to how the values should be modified to apply to children, pregnant or lactating women, and diseased persons. They should not be relied on as an infallible standard for assessing the adequacy of the diet in nutritional surveys."

The problem is that deprivation leads to more deprivation, so you (general) might be avoiding highly nutritious foods because of fear of trace amounts of poison A, only to find out later that you didn't have too much stored at all, it was mere managament of your condition. And if you eventually reach depletion, you'll eventually be forced to add poison A and that might trigger the condition again, so the whole time you were deluding yourself that you were almost there, but after the realization you'll feel compelled to work on the actual cause of the problem. The point is that going extreme is not necessary and can be harmful over the times.

Some people might do better keeping carotenes lower and consuming more preformed poison A instead.

I'm going through the references and it's not very convincing. This study: Endemic goiter with iodine sufficiency: a possible role for the consumption of pearl millet in the etiology of endemic goiter. - PubMed - NCBI claims vitamin A deficiency was found associated with goiter. But this is the conclusion: "consumption of millet, vitamin A deficiency, and protein-energy malnutrition are possible etiologic factors in this endemic area."
Sounds like just malnutrition. Which is the case in a lot of vitamin A deficiency studies.

Sounds like malnutrition and weakened metabolism the entire thread. What's causing those is the tough question that needs to be addressed. It's still preferable to focus on requirements to thrive (Rachelle, you used this word above) or how to get there, than to subsist.

"During development, a deficiency of vitamin A leads to abnormalities in dentine formation and bone growth." I have serious doubts about this. My younger son I was eating according to WAPF which meant cod liver oil, liver, raw milk, butter, and eggs. I had no shortage of multiple sources of retinol. And yet he has the worst teeth I've ever seen. The enamel has melted away on multiple teeth. They call that enamel hypoplasia. And I have reason to suspect it's caused by excess A. There is definitely some kind of paradox going on with the study of vitamin A.

It isn't unlikely at all. When tissues are forming (or regenerating), poison/"vitamin" A is involved in cell growth and differentiation. If the person is too detoxed, the abby normalities can appear. There they comment on deficiency, and you might be mentioning here an excess, so it's somewhere in between them that is best. Searching for those terms (poison A, dentine, development) should give you an idea.

Also remember Garrett used vitamin A with his clients for years and unfortunately he didn't have raving reviews of his practice back then, probably because people aren't having long term success with using vitamin A, but they continually try to ramp it up, if 10,000 isn't working, why not try 50,000?

Regarding this last part, who here doesn't think that it's worth ingesting poison/"vitamin" A to tolerance? Why are you insisting on this if it has been stressed right on the previous post?

 

[InChristAlone]

How do you claim that I chase your posts? There are various contradictions that I just ignore, here's an example of some that I was..

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"What kind of dosage does that translate to in humans? I really don't think lab rats are good indicators. Are lab rats even given access to UV light? Because humans need sunlight to thrive."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"Yes I see that, but what about humans who are given ample accesss to sunlight? Would it show the same toxic effects to the thyroid? I am not so interested in in vitro and lab albino rats. As Peat has said he notices the toxicity of A when under low UV conditions. I think those who are experiencing the toxic effects should take a vacation to the tropics. I think this thread has given me more cause for concern with A in the winter and to never supplement it."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"I'm so glad you are doing the mouse study! Can't wait to see how it turns out. If they end up surviving, the real test would be having babies and those babies growing up with no vitamin A either."​

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"Sounds like you have done your research! Excited to see what happens, are there are any ideas about how long a rodent can live without vitamin A? They can live 2 years so this could be a long experiment! Might need to make babies to test if fertility is in any way impacted, plus we don't know how long vitamin A could possibly be retained, so many generations might need to be experimented with. Which would probably be the fastest experiment since their gestation is so short."​

And you've positioned yourself before as not taking rat experiments seriously and believing that they're not significant for humanoids. Yet here you aware cheering for someone doing it, not annoyed that animals are apparently kept under artificial conditions (light), cages are not elevated so that their crap falls, and so on. It's doubling the standards.

Why would you spend your time looking for contradictions?? I am not hiding that I was a skeptic at the beginning. I definitely do not like rat studies, but this is a special case where these mice are going to be treated well, not dissected in a month and conclusions given for humans to follow. You bring up good arguments about them eating their poop and hopefully @Yi at LDT will take it into account. I knew the experiment could take several generations of mice as you have so kindly pointed out that it takes a long long time for even humans to be damaged by no vitamin A. We may see the blindness after many generations and the whole "poison A" theory can be laid to rest.

Your spoiler was amazing. Despite such a long period of very low vitamin A they remained healthy except for some night blindness. This says to me all those deficiency signs are actually signs of other undernourished conditions. So I think as a community we should stop recommending it so much. Especially not for dry skin. Eczema and peeling skin are the first signs of too much. It seems any skin condition and someone says eat liver! (yes that was me for years)

So you think everyone getting better is due to malnutrition in the previous diet? Most of us here have tried the recommended diet put forth by Ray Peat. So then you are admitting it causes malnutrition/inflammation or at the very least doesn't resolve hypothyroidism. Why do you think that is? Not enough vegetables? Not enough variety of fruits? Too much dairy? What is it if it's not too much A? You see absolutely no value in draining stores of retinol?

Some people are really suffering, what would you tell them to do?

 

[FoodStuff8]

Hi all

I just joined the RayPeat Forum specifically around this vitA topic... It has been recommended for me to try out by my friend who is a naturopath and following Garret Smith...who I also follow a bit on facebook and have read his blogs at nutrition restored...

Anyways, I have been dealing with all sorts of horrible "auto-immune" mystery illness type stuff for many years and it has ruined my life...

I guess that will serve as my simple introduction for now... and I can share more if anyone cares for it...

I just want to say from the get-go, that im grateful for everyones contributions here and i really hope we all find healing in our own ways... life is so complex and I know first hand how everything can crumble as far as passions, purpose, relationships, career, money, health and how confusing and frustrating it can be when everyone has infinite answers and the things we try seem not to work... but the net person has snake oil, a silver bullet and magic pill ready for us...

anyways, I have read this entire thread from beginning till now over the past 5 days and just started reading Grant's book "exiting the fire's of hell"...I found this part of the book thus far to be very interesting
-------------------
from page 40:
"Yet, amazingly, there is such a potential toxin, and it is in nearly all of our foods. It is called Retinol, a.k.a. Vitamin A It is also essential, and harmless at low doses. It also has a threshold, or tipping point, when it becomes toxic. "
------------------

Grant says it's a "potential toxin" and that is "essential and harmless at low doses"....


I just wanted to point this out because up until this point, i have always heard it be called "POISON" which made it really hard for me to approach this topic without angst... outright labelling it as a poison and over and over and over and over saying its POISON makes this whole thing sound like a conspiracy...

ok, so if its needed in certain amounts, maybe the detox is necessary if we have had a perosnal history where we came into contact with large doses of synthetic... i believe this happened to me as I grew up eating ton of processed and foritified foods like milk, yogurt, juice, cereal, candy, flours....

anyways, again, anyways, haha... the main takeaway id like to contribute here is that vitA is built into so many foods that seem to carry so many other nutrients that can be beneficial to humans like eggs, raw milk, offal, vegetables, fruit, etc... and vitA is ESSENTIAL as quoted above by Grant... maybe we need to start calling it "ESSENTIAL yet-likely overdosed and toxic in you vitA"

 

[charlie]

No More Burning Skin

 

[InChristAlone]

Hi all

I just joined the RayPeat Forum specifically around this vitA topic... It has been recommended for me to try out by my friend who is a naturopath and following Garret Smith...who I also follow a bit on facebook and have read his blogs at nutrition restored...

Anyways, I have been dealing with all sorts of horrible "auto-immune" mystery illness type stuff for many years and it has ruined my life...

I guess that will serve as my simple introduction for now... and I can share more if anyone cares for it...

I just want to say from the get-go, that im grateful for everyones contributions here and i really hope we all find healing in our own ways... life is so complex and I know first hand how everything can crumble as far as passions, purpose, relationships, career, money, health and how confusing and frustrating it can be when everyone has infinite answers and the things we try seem not to work... but the net person has snake oil, a silver bullet and magic pill ready for us...

anyways, I have read this entire thread from beginning till now over the past 5 days and just started reading Grant's book "exiting the fire's of hell"...I found this part of the book thus far to be very interesting
-------------------
from page 40:
"Yet, amazingly, there is such a potential toxin, and it is in nearly all of our foods. It is called Retinol, a.k.a. Vitamin A It is also essential, and harmless at low doses. It also has a threshold, or tipping point, when it becomes toxic. "
------------------

Grant says it's a "potential toxin" and that is "essential and harmless at low doses"....


I just wanted to point this out because up until this point, i have always heard it be called "POISON" which made it really hard for me to approach this topic without angst... outright labelling it as a poison and over and over and over and over saying its POISON makes this whole thing sound like a conspiracy...

ok, so if its needed in certain amounts, maybe the detox is necessary if we have had a perosnal history where we came into contact with large doses of synthetic... i believe this happened to me as I grew up eating ton of processed and foritified foods like milk, yogurt, juice, cereal, candy, flours....

anyways, again, anyways, haha... the main takeaway id like to contribute here is that vitA is built into so many foods that seem to carry so many other nutrients that can be beneficial to humans like eggs, raw milk, offal, vegetables, fruit, etc... and vitA is ESSENTIAL as quoted above by Grant... maybe we need to start calling it "ESSENTIAL yet-likely overdosed and toxic in you vitA"

Was that his first ebook? Wasn't the next book Poisoning For Profits? Which is where the Poison A came from.

Also.. Welcome!

 

[FoodStuff8]

Was that his first ebook? Wasn't the next book Poisoning For Profits? Which is where the Poison A came from.

Also.. Welcome!

Thanks :)
yea, first book... so, the 2nd book is where it becomes more "POISON!!!"...? makes sense, from the title... i just am a person who wants to tie things together to make sense of it all... i found benefits when i took our processed foods from standard american diet... but symptoms persisted... i found benefits then when i went vegan but that didnt last either... i didnt feel good... then went paleo and some stuff improved but still bad symptoms... then tried keto... didnt work for me either... carnivore worked but i didnt like the limited nature of it...

now, im here reading all this stuff and feels like a reverse engineering course in skeptic mico-biology-chemistry-nutrition...

seems like many people on Grant's forum are also experiencing further teeth problems after doing the detox... my teeth have been getting more sensitive and more caries... i attribute it to the carbs.... and it sucks because all the remidies to remineralize teeth seem to be high vitA sources... sooooo

 

[Amazoniac]

Why would you spend your time looking for contradictions?? I am not hiding that I was a skeptic at the beginning.

I wasn't looking for them, I camed across when searching for the post on excess carotenes being a problem, check out the page coincidences.

I definitely do not like rat studies, but this is a special case where these mice are going to be treated well, not dissected in a month and conclusions given for humans to follow.

A Tragic Start - Caratenoid Experiment

And he was having trouble identifying the sex of the mice. I'm not mocking him for it, it's just that it can be challenging to design experiments of this sort that require strict control over a long period without practice.

So you think everyone getting better is due to malnutrition in the previous diet? Most of us here have tried the recommended diet put forth by Ray Peat. So then you are admitting it causes malnutrition/inflammation or at the very least doesn't resolve hypothyroidism. Why do you think that is? Not enough vegetables? Not enough variety of fruits? Too much dairy? What is it if it's not too much A? You see absolutely no value in draining stores of retinol?

Some people are really suffering, what would you tell them to do?

I think if vitamin A correlates with typhoid hormone, it makes sense that when you lower it, you also decrease your internal nutrient consumption; but if at the same time the external remains constant, it's possible that nutrients are shifted to other jobs there were compromised before. I've always made it clear how puzzled I is by his stereotypical diet, I can't imagine it working for most people.

In terms of poison A, reduce to tolerance but without being extreme, avoiding only major sources. If the person only feels relief with a strict diet, it's better to not settle on it and intensify the quest to find out the actual cause. If you suspect that the deprivation is being corrective, it might be worth trying extra poison once in a while to grasp if this is indeed the case. If everything returns from a few reintroductions, it reinforces the idea of being mere managament. Maybe there are hidden infections that are being responsible for the chronic inflammation.

Check this out as well:
- Vitamin effects on the immune system: vitamins A and D take centre stage (!)
@Diokine @Ella @therewasathirdmemberthatiwasgoingtotagbutiforgotwhoihadinmind

 

[InChristAlone]

I wasn't looking for them, I camed across when searching for the post on excess carotenes being a problem, check out the page coincidences.

A Tragic Start - Caratenoid Experiment

And he was having trouble identifying the sex of the mice. I'm not mocking him for it, it's just that it can be challenging to design experiments of this sort that require strict control over a long period.

I think if vitamin A correlates with typhoid hormone, it makes sense that when you lower it, you also decrease your internal nutrient consumption; but if at the same time the external remains constant, it's possible that nutrients are shifted to other jobs there were compromised before. I've always made it clear how puzzled I is by his stereotypical diet, I can't imagine it working for most people.

In terms of poison A, reduce to tolerance but without being extreme, avoiding only major sources. If the person only feels relief with a strict diet, it's better to not settle on it and intensify the quest to find out the actual cause. If you suspect that the deprivation is being corrective, it might be worth trying extra poison once in a while to grasp if this is indeed the case. If everything returns from a few reintroductions, it reinforces the idea of being mere managament. Maybe there are hidden infections that are being responsible for the chronic inflammation.

Check this out as well:
- Vitamin effects on the immune system: vitamins A and D take centre stage (!)
@Diokine @Ella @therewasathirdmemberthatiwasgoingtotagbutiforgotwhoihadinmind

There it is, they bought up using retinoids for immune modulation for vaccination. Welp there goes the credibility of those researchers. Not to mention why are people even studying using vitamin A supplementation in malnourished children? Why not uh just give them good food? Oh that's right because billionaires don't care that there are still starving people in the world. They'd rather fortify their diet with vitamin A and test vaccines on them(Bill Gates).

I am doubting the correlation with vitamin A levels and thyroid levels. Maybe the more you have the more autoimmune thyroiditis you have! But not the other way around, where the less you eat the more hypothyroid you become. Yes we did question whether Grant is hypothyroid but in his case it's probably good he's not using up nutrients too fast, as he was dieing of kidney disease. Not a fun way to go. He's doing pretty well if in fact he is hypothyroid.

Hidden infections could be a factor but wouldn't going too low in A make that worse not better? If vitamin A is good for the immune system.