Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Waremu]

Let people call it what they want in this thread. This is where vitamin A and its poison properties (or not) are being discussed. I know it is tempting to police how words are used because of personal discomfort, but let things be discussed freely.

+1

I agree.

 

[Blossom]

So, this person probably gets a lot of vitamin A. Is this an anecdote to support or discredit the theory?

I just thought the part about her not believing in taking cod liver oil and vitamins was pretty awesome. Meat, potatoes and bread aren’t high in A though so most of her A would seem to come from certain fish and cream. It definitely seems to be very low in beta carotene.

 

[InChristAlone]

Let people call it what they want in this thread. This is where vitamin A and its poison properties (or not) are being discussed. I know it is tempting to police how words are used because of personal discomfort, but let things be discussed freely.




I could probably still eat Liver and get a temporary boost from it. Feel strong, all that. The difference is that all the other problems I was getting that did not seem to have a cause (restless leg, insulin res., weight gain, etc etc) are going away.

I was mostly referring to Amazoniac using it as a mockery of the theory including the people trying it out.

 

[Amazoniac]

I know you are a bit a of jokster, but did you really have to add in that part about yourretinopia.com? It sounds like you are mocking some of the people on this thread who have shared their experience. Also I think you are the one taking this too seriously Garrett never said his patients have to follow this low vitamin A diet for life. He is experimenting with getting rid of a lot of the stored vitamin A to see if conditions improve. You are acting as though carotenemia and hypervitaminosis A don't exist when it is well documented in the literature. And mocking people who think they have too much A when it's actually a deficiency? Well I'm glad I didn't think some of my issues like my butt rash were low vitamin A! Very glad. Eating liver made absolutely no difference. When greasy dermatitis responds very well to riboflavin. Mine is not greasy like Seb. One case I shared about toxic levels of A because the lady was supplementing for psoriasis showed that in fact her psoriasis did improve only at the expense of her health! Quickly came back when she went off it. Almost as if it's acting like a drug, not actually improving health.

Antonelle, it's worth enjoying these because we're running out of '-elles'. I had a Jane L. in my sleeve but I'm wasting it right now.

If I had to add? No, it was optional. A previous post was criticizing his new misguided starting place, so how am I implying that it's for life? We don't know if people have accumulated poison A before restriction, it can be just that they can't use or don't need more of it. His behavior is an encouragement for a restricted diet, a contradiction of yours in not being bothered by this given that you protest against this kind of thing whenever you can.

On your claim that I'm acting as if excess can't be detrimental is one more contradiction because you were already engaged in the discussion below (there's a post of yours next to mine) that I was contesting that it does occur and it shouldn't be ignored because it's harmful:
- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
- How To Revert Hypervitaminosis A?

I try to be as careful and conservative as possible in my posts, but you seem to has a different impression. I already commented many times in this thread that it's a good idea to reduce the intake to tolerance, but it's possible to take it too far and this isn't unlikely to occur if you have the idea entrenched of it being a toxin (the guy makes sure to repeat this on every chance, he even has a dedicated area in his website to claim that it's not an essential nutrient). The mockery is on this. It shifts the attention from the actual problem to micromanaging trace amounts of propoison A in foods: people are putting more effort to avoid it at all costs than lead, cadmium, and so on; it's bizarre.

Maybe it would be best to stop referring to vitamin A/beta carotene as poison? It ignores context, creates more fear and detracts from the wonderful progress some of the members on this thread are making — the cult word gets used, which only acts to dismiss their experiences. Calling A a poison also dismisses the experience of those of us who have commented here about reversing serious diseases and illness on diets that contained a lot of vitamin A or vitamin A supplementation.

Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from. I didn't see it as you being envious or jealous. I know Garrett from my RBTI days when we were both members on Matt Stone's and Pippa's RBTI Facebook group. I have nothing against him, I just have a different perspective when it comes to health. Like you, I don't believe he is intentionally trying to deceive anyone but of course, that's not to say he isn't deceiving himself and that others won't suffer the consequences of this. I honestly can't comment on that. All I can say is that I feel it's really important to never give our power away to others. Not everyone has an understanding of science, but everyone was born with an innate wisdom and can access it anytime.

It's a purposeful ridiculing so that I give my share in weakening the idea and avoid the bad connotation.

They claim that the red color of tomatoes is the pinneapple of alarm. But what about berries? Kids adore foods with strawberries.


--
Carotenoids - Volume 5: Nutrition and Health (978-3-7643-7500-3)
G. Britton, S. Liaaen-Jensen, and H. Pfander

"In recent reviews [9,135], several hypotheses have been proposed for the molecular mechanism involved in the pro-oxidant effect of high concentrations of ß-carotene. The main hypotheses are that high concentrations of ß-carotene can lead to one or more effects.

(i) A more favourable formation of ß-carotene peroxyl radical and/or a faster rate of ß-carotene auto-oxidation, leading to the formation of O2•-.
(ii) Modification of iron concentrations, increasing the production of ROS through a Fenton reaction. This can be exacerbated by carotenoids that are characterized by a low oxidation potential (ß-carotene has the lowest oxidation potential) which recycle Fe2+ by reducing Fe3+ ions, thus inducing a carotenoid-driven Fenton reaction [136].
(iii) ROS formation via induction of various cytochrome P450 isoforms.
(iv) Formation of aggregates that crystallize out of solution. Such carotenoid aggregates [] have been directly observed in membranes, and their presence is thought to have a profound effect on the properties of the membrane itself, by leading to an increase in membrane fluidity, which could result in a pro-oxidant effect.
(v) Formation of oxidation products that exert a pro-oxidant effect."
​

"Recently an interesting hypothesis has been proposed for the mechanism responsible for the switching between antioxidant/pro-oxidant effects of ß-carotene [73,149,150]. According to this, under conditions of moderate oxidative stress, the antioxidant effects of ß-carotene predominate, but under heavy oxidative stress, ß-carotene undergoes an oxidative breakdown leading to the formation of reactive breakdown products which are responsible for the prooxidant activity and harmful effects of ß-carotene. These ß-carotene breakdown products include reactive aldehydes [cou-molybdenum-gh] such as 8’-apo-ß-caroten-8’-al (482), 10’-apo-ß-caroten-10’-al (499), 12’-apo-ß-caroten-12’-al (507), 14’-apo-ß-caroten-14’-al (513), retinal (7), and short-chain products such as ß-cyclocitral (2), ß-ionone (3), 5,6-epoxy-ß-ionone (8) and 4-oxo-ß-ionone (9) [149].

The chemical reactivity of most of these compounds with other biomolecules is still unknown although it has been proposed that the reactivity and biological effects may be similar to those induced by the reactive aldehydes from lipid peroxidation, such as 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE) and MDA [149]. These ß-carotene breakdown products were found to exert several damaging effects such as (i) inhibiting state 3 respiration in isolated rat liver mitochondria, which is accompanied by increased oxidative stress in the mitochondria, as reflected by a decrease in glutathione and protein SH groups and an increase of MDA, and (ii) genotoxic effects (micronuclei and chromosomal aberrations) at sub-micromolar concentrations [151]. This hypothesis could explain the pro-oxidant effects induced by a series of different factors such as O2, UV, and general oxidants including smoke or hypochlorous acid (HOCl), that are known to switch on the pro-oxidant effects of ß-carotene and are characterized by the induction of oxidative breakdown of carotenoids. The cytotoxic effects of aldehydes derived from breakdown of ß-carotene, lutein and zeaxanthin on human retinal pigment epithelial cells (ARPE-19) have been examined. A significant increase of oxidative stress and ROS generation accompanied by an increased number of apoptotic cells was observed following treatment with the aldehydes [152]. A mixture of ß-carotene breakdown products in primary hepatocytes showed a genotoxic potential at concentrations in the range 100 nM and 1 µM, [153] and significantly enhanced the genotoxic effects of oxidative stress exposure [154]."

"Studies with model membranes enriched with polyunsaturated fatty acids have indicated that interaction with the membrane is a critical influence on the antioxidant/pro-oxidant activity of carotenoids. Differential effects of carotenoids on lipid peroxidation rates were partially attributed to their orientation and location, as determined by small angle X-ray diffraction []. The apolar carotenoids lycopene and ß-carotene [in excess], which disorder the membrane bilayer, show a potent pro-oxidant effect whereas astaxanthin preserves membrane structure and exhibits significant antioxidant activity [84,155]."

"It has been reported that ß-carotene, which is located in the lipophilic core of the membrane bilayer, can directly interact with water-soluble antioxidants. By scavenging radical species in a heterogeneous micellar environment, ß-carotene can be converted into its radical cation CAR•+ or peroxyl radical cation CAR-OO•+ [166], which are more polar than ß-carotene itself, and can be reoriented towards the hydrophilic compartment, allowing ascorbic acid to repair the ß-carotene radical [167]. Other work [164] has also shown an interaction between ß-carotene radical cations and ascorbic acid." @Orion

​

"The combination of a-tocopherol and ß-carotene has been reported to act cooperatively to slow down MDA formation initiated by the aqueous peroxyl radical generator, AAPH, in a liver microsomal membrane preparation [82]. ß-Carotene added to preformed lipid bilayers produced much less of an antioxidant effect than ß-carotene incorporated in the liposomes during bilayer formation [83]. It is possible that a-tocopherol reduces ß-carotene peroxyl radicals (LOO-ß-C-OO•) as well as ß-carotene radical cations (ß-C•+), as has been shown in a homogeneous solution [165]. In addition, ß-carotene may recycle a-tocopherol from the a-tocopheroxyl radical (a-TO•) through electron transfer [168], although this possible mechanism of action should be studied further, because the reduction potential of ß-carotene is reported to be lower than that of a-tocopherol [169,170]."​

Out of curiosity:

"For many years, the rather unspecific biomarker TBARS was used to determine lipid peroxidation. It should be noted, however, that any conjugated dialdehyde in the plasma can react with thiobarbituric acid resulting in increased TBARS values, which are usually attributed to increased MDA concentrations."​

On transportation:

 

[Makrosky]

Veggies

For vegetables which includes their juices- Generally, avoid green leafy vegetables & brightly colored vegetables unless they are mentioned in the good section below.

Greens, reds, oranges and yellow signify high carotenoid content which is plant “vitamin A”

Certain vegetables are very high in carotenoids aka plant vitamin A. These inlcude:

Orange fleshed sweet potatoes,orange or reddish carrots, chilis, spinach/kale and other dark leafy greens, sweet corn, pumpkin, squash, tomatoes, peppers/capsicum, oranges, cantaloupe melon, red cabbage & okra, etc...

Herbs like Parsley, thyme, coriander, sage, oregano, basil, marjoram etc. think of them as green leafy vegetables and should be avoided.

Good veggies to eat:

As a general rule, the white and light green colored vegetables tend to be ok. If the inside of the vegetable is white, then it can be eaten if peeled of all colored skin. For example, if you want to eat cucumber, you should peel all the green off and eat the inside.

Arrowroot
Cauliflower
Celery
Cucumber (peeled)
Fennel
Green Cabbage (remove greenest leaves) Pointed cabbage (remove greenest leaves)
Mushrooms
Iceberg lettuce (remove greenest leaves)
Celeriac
Jerusalem artichokes
Jicama
Nohlrabi
Neeps
Parsnips
Potatoes -white only (some can be quite yellow inside so you want to avoid these, and ones which have sprouted, are green or are bruised)
Radishes
Rutabagas
Swedes
Turnips
Water chestnuts
White carrots
White fleshed cassava
White garlic
White onion

 

[Waremu]

I was mostly referring to Amazoniac using it as a mockery of the theory including the people trying it out.

Where did he mock those trying it out? Making a mockery of a theory is not necessarily akin to making a mockery of those who try the theory out. And maybe he is just playing/joking around. He jokingly mocked the theory, yes, but that doesn't mean he is mocking those who are trying it out.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Vitamin A status in children with asthma

"The airway inflammation in asthmatic patients is associated with increased production of reactive oxygen metabolites (superoxide anion, hydrogen peroxide, and hydroxyl radicals) by peripheral blood eosinophils, neutrophils and alveolar macrophages (14). Beta‐carotene by quenching the singlet oxygen (antioxidant effect) may reduce the airway inflammation in asthma (15). This utilization of vitamin A as an antioxidant may be a factor for reduced serum vitamin A levels."​

 

[Jennifer]

Let people call it what they want in this thread. This is where vitamin A and its poison properties (or not) are being discussed. I know it is tempting to police how words are used because of personal discomfort, but let things be discussed freely.

Yes, I can see you feel it's tempting to police since that is what you are doing to me in your comment. Obviously I can't tell people what to refer to it as. It was a suggestion, not an order. There is no personal discomfort on my part since experience trumps theories.

 

[Kartoffel]

I just thought the part about her not believing in taking cod liver oil and vitamins was pretty awesome. Meat, potatoes and bread aren’t high in A though so most of her A would seem to come from certain fish and cream. It definitely seems to be very low in beta carotene.

Ok, but how many eggs does she eat a day? How much butter is on the bread she eats every day? Does meat include organ meat like liver? Even if the foods she mentioned in that article are all she eats, what does that tell us about vitamin A? Her diet sounds exactely like that of my grandfather - bread, potatoes, meat, rarely any vegetables, and never any fruits besides some berries here and there. He died at 82. My other grandfather loved fruits and ate lots of eggs, butter, and cream. He made it to 97. This whole theory is vague enough as it stands. Maybe adding short newspaper articles about people from Iceland, and estimations about their vitamin A intake, won't strenghten it.

As Jennifer said: Words and labels matter. Peat has stressed this many times. When you call something that is the antithesis of progesterone a progestin, it has serious cognitive consequences for the people that think about its' biological functions. Similarly, calling vitamin A a poison might limit people's ability to understand the issue, and for example tempt them to forget that correlation doesn't equal causation. There are a million other variables changing when you go on a low-vitamin A diet, yet the idea of a poison will cause you to ignore other possible explanations.

Also, it doesn't really make sense when you think about it. No animal retinol, and no plant-based ß-carotene? Every culture on this planet either lived on a plant based diet, and got a lot of carotene from vegetables and tubers, or on a meat based diet (nomadic cultures and hunters), and got a lot of retinol. Or a mix of both. Even the exceptionally healthy polynesians eat a lot of carotene-rich tubers and get vitamin A from fish organs (including the eyes). The diet proposed here sounds ridiculously restrictive. When you can't eat anything with either a moderate amount of carotene or retinol, then you really don't have a lot of foods lef to eat without risking serious deficiencies in the long run.

 

[Jennifer]

Pippa! I talked to her everyday for like a year when she was having a nervous breakdown. Milk and OJ diet was terrible for her.

Yeah, I believe that! A fair amount of people have mentioned struggling on a milk and OJ diet.

 

[Amazoniac]

I wonder if methyl B12 provides the same effect for people who get this superman effect from liver. Because I don't think it's retinol at all, so it has to be the b vitamins, iron or copper.

In case you missed..
- B12 Deficiency And Hypothyroidism

100 g of cooked beef liver dropives 70 mcg of B12. In terms of absorption, people might obtain only 2.5 mcg (1.5 mcg active + 1.0 mcg passive) of it.

 

[Jennifer]

It's a purposeful ridiculing so that I give my share in weakening the idea and avoid the bad connotation.

I understood that. I wasn't referring to your comment in particular.

 

[Tarmander]

Yes, I can see you feel it's tempting to police since that is what you are doing to me in your comment. Obviously I can't tell people what to refer to it as. It was a suggestion, not an order. There is no personal discomfort on my part since experience trumps theories.

I'll stop if you stop

 

[Makrosky]

There must be some astrological event today that made everyone a bit too much "sensitive"...

 

[InChristAlone]

Where did he mock those trying it out? Making a mockery of a theory is not necessarily akin to making a mockery of those who try the theory out. And maybe he is just playing/joking around. He mocked the theory, yes, but that doesn't mean he is mocking those who are trying it out.

"If you create a website named yourretinopia.com, it's a secure investment or a preparation to vulture on what has been vultured. People will be experiencing severe symptoms of poison A clearance (former deficiency) and be viewing themselves in the mirror as yellow in spite of having a skin tone as fair as Sheila's."

This is basically to me like saying there will need to be a recovery forum for the low vitamin A diet and that people will have a disorder of seeing themselves as having carotenemia when there is none. When Blossom was just talking about the orange/brownish tint above the eyes which she said is slowly going away on the low A diet.

 

[Blossom]

Ok, but how many eggs does she eat a day? How much butter is on the bread she eats every day? Does meat include organ meat like liver? Even if the foods she mentioned in that article are all she eats, what does that tell us about vitamin A? Her diet sounds exactely like that of my grandfather - bread, potatoes, meat, rarely any vegetables, and never any fruits besides some berries here and there. He died at 82. My other grandfather loved fruits and ate lots of eggs, butter, and cream. He made it to 97. This whole theory is vague enough as it stands. Maybe adding short newspaper articles about people from Iceland, and estimations about their vitamin A intake, won't strenghten it.

As Jennifer said: Words and labels matter. Peat has stressed this many times. When you call something that is the antithesis of progesterone a progestin, it has serious cognitive consequences for the people that think about its' biological functions. Similarly, calling vitamin A a poison might limit people's ability to understand the issue, and for example tempt them to forget that correlation doesn't equal causation. There are a million other variables changing when you go on a low-vitamin A diet, yet the idea of a poison will cause you to ignore other possible explanations.

Also, it doesn't really make sense when you think about it. No animal retinol, and no plant-based ß-carotene? Every culture on this planet either lived on a plant based diet, and got a lot of carotene from vegetables and tubers, or on a meat based diet (nomadic cultures and hunters), and got a lot of retinol. Or a mix of both. Even the exceptionally healthy polynesians eat a lot of carotene-rich tubers and get vitamin A from fish organs (including the eyes). The diet proposed here sounds ridiculously restrictive. When you can't eat anything with either a moderate amount of carotene or retinol, then you really don't have a lot of foods lef to eat without risking serious deficiencies in the long run.

Okay @Kartoffel.

"If you create a website named yourretinopia.com, it's a secure investment or a preparation to vulture on what has been vultured. People will be experiencing severe symptoms of poison A clearance (former deficiency) and be viewing themselves in the mirror as yellow in spite of having a skin tone as fair as Sheila's."

This is basically to me like saying there will need to be a recovery forum for the low vitamin A diet and that people will have a disorder of seeing themselves as having carotenemia when there is none. When Blossom was just talking about the orange/brownish tint above the eyes which she said is slowly going away on the low A diet.

Thanks @Janelle525. I only mentioned it in the first place because I was asked about it. It’s certainly not something that impacts my life.

 

[Kartoffel]

Okay @Kartoffel.

All right @Blossom

 

[Jennifer]

I'll stop if you stop

Deal.

There must be some astrological event today that made everyone a bit too much "sensitive"...

LOL

 

[Amazoniac]

"If you create a website named yourretinopia.com, it's a secure investment or a preparation to vulture on what has been vultured. People will be experiencing severe symptoms of poison A clearance (former deficiency) and be viewing themselves in the mirror as yellow in spite of having a skin tone as fair as Sheila's."

This is basically to me like saying there will need to be a recovery forum for the low vitamin A diet and that people will have a disorder of seeing themselves as having carotenemia when there is none. When Blossom was just talking about the orange/brownish tint above the eyes which she said is slowly going away on the low A diet.

It's what I commented on the post above: insisting on purging a toxin because you're almost there. You also brought up a good point above:

"One case I shared about toxic levels of A because the lady was supplementing for psoriasis showed that in fact her psoriasis did improve only at the expense of her health!"​

With the opposite (taking your restriction too far), you can also compromise some aspects of your health without realizing because you had time to adapt to it. The recovery is in accepting that it's a needed nutrient and it will eventually be impairing after a while of refusal of such fact. It's related to Kartoffel's post and the discussion that I had with Steven about moving on without getting semantics straight first.

I didn't have any member in mind and already told you that I avoid indirect messages.

From a post by tim on Grant’s site about an Icelandic centenarian (age 105).

"The key to longevity is to stay clear of all modern healthfoods and stick to a strict diet of traditional Icelandic dishes of bread, meat or fish and potatoes, according to the third oldest person in Iceland."

"Guðrún told the local newspaper Morgunblaðið that she does her best to never eat fruits or vegetables. She admits that “once in a while” she might eat “very small portions” of cauliflower and cabbage. Bananas are the only fruits this centenarian is willing to taste. She also stays clear of food supplements and vitamin, as well as cod-liver oil."

"Guðrún told Morgunblaðið that she refuses to touch any “modern health foods”, sticking instead to traditional Icelandic home-cooked meals. Her favourite dish is Icelandic bread soup made with rúgbrauð and topped with whipped cream, as well as regular saltfish."

Blossom, I get that you're suggesting that it's possible, but search for "vegetable" or "fruit":
- Long-lived Compilation Facts

If I'm not wrong, in older people the need for poison A decreases in relation to antidote D, therefore a supercentenarian can get by with lower intakes.

By the way, your hair analysis looks great indeed. There are various ones available online that are off the charts, the lab would need to attach pieces to fit the bars.

 

[Orion]

When alot of people find RPF omega3/PUFA is king and sugar is the devil. Well now vitamin A is the devil, and I am diving in.