Estrogen overload or sluggish liver?

[shanny]

I think it's all about experiment and finding what works best for each individual person. I've seen over and over on this forum people trying to force some of these "principles" even though they are having horrible health issues. (guilty of it myself!). Truly, it just comes down to listening to your body. If you throw a serving of beans into your diet, and you feel fine, then that's a great source of soluble fiber that will help with clearing out your bile and your liver. If that scares you to try, then psyllium is a good option. You can start really slowly, like a teaspoon, and work your way up to test your tolerance. (this option has been much more successful in my experience and way less of a pain in the **** than making a carrot salad or mushrooms boiled to death!)

I agree with people on this thread, and I've seen it over and over with people I've worked with and it's true for myself, saturated fat and fruit sugar make most of my symptoms worse. You are not alone if this is overburdening your liver and causing estrogen symptoms. I have pretty much removed all fruit and I use well cooked starches, squash and potatoes and it's been totally different. Same with dairy. Every time I reintroduce it....and it doesn't matter what mammal it comes from....bad acne and horrible PMS.

My first question to people I work with is always, "what do you like to eat?" That's what you should be eating!! Balanced meals with no food fear!

 

[Dutchie]

. If that scares you to try, then psyllium is a good option. You can start really slowly, like a teaspoon, and work your way up to test your tolerance. (this option has been much more successful in my experience

Do you have experience with a pectin supplement instead of beans or psyllium? Both are high in oxalates, so not an option for me.

I kinda have to laugh at your question of what someone would like to eat and start from there, bc if it were for me I like eating foods which never will like me.?
Though currently there's nothing that I would like to eat anymore, it only contributes to nausea.

 

[Peatness]

Look up Karen Hurd and her bean protocol. You have toxic bile that needs to be removed with soluble fiber. Beans or psyllium or activated charcoal. She went through menopause with zero symptoms and has the energy of a 20 yr old. I will listen to her over anyone on this forum!

Wow. I'm surprised you are still on the forum. I've looked into Karen Hurd and her bean protocol, I can't say much about how it works but I find her rather interesting.

 

[Dolomite]

I tried all the dairy and OJ diet. But I just got more estrogen symptoms. Ray Peat seems to think the hormones in milk aren't a problem. And they may not affect some people. But the only people I knew when I was in my 20s and 30s who had their gall bladders removed were young women who drank a lot of milk. Who knows what their bile was like? And when I got to middle age the gall bladder sufferers were slightly overweight women in perimenopause who probably had a lot of estrogen floating around. Maybe I don't know what the symptoms of too much estrogen are but I think it causes migraines around women's periods because it causes veins and arteries to have spasms and bad cramps because of the spasms causing the veins and arteries in the uterus to shut down as well as all the other bad things mentioned on the forum. I am always amazed when people on the forum say they have low estrogen. I don't think adding progesterone is the answer though.

 

[InChristAlone]

I tried all the dairy and OJ diet. But I just got more estrogen symptoms. Ray Peat seems to think the hormones in milk aren't a problem. And they may not affect some people. But the only people I knew when I was in my 20s and 30s who had their gall bladders removed were young women who drank a lot of milk. Who knows what their bile was like? And when I got to middle age the gall bladder sufferers were slightly overweight women in perimenopause who probably had a lot of estrogen floating around. Maybe I don't know what the symptoms of too much estrogen are but I think it causes migraines around women's periods because it causes veins and arteries to have spasms and bad cramps because of the spasms causing the veins and arteries in the uterus to shut down as well as all the other bad things mentioned on the forum. I am always amazed when people on the forum say they have low estrogen. I don't think adding progesterone is the answer though.

This is what I've come to as well. Milk and OJ won't heal hormones.

 

[shanny]

Do you have experience with a pectin supplement instead of beans or psyllium? Both are high in oxalates, so not an option for me.

I kinda have to laugh at your question of what someone would like to eat and start from there, bc if it were for me I like eating foods which never will like me.?
Though currently there's nothing that I would like to eat anymore, it only contributes to nausea.

Usually the foods people like to eat give a clue as to what they are missing, so it's always a good place to start. If those foods are not yet tolerated, then I always try to find something that will fill that nutritional void. Even if somebody says all they want to eat are chips and candy....the chips are likely the need for salt and the candy is the cells need for sugar! Cravings and intuition always tell the truth!

Sounds like you have some kind of gut disturbance??

I've used apple pectin before as a supplement, and it's actually a good prebiotic and source of soluble fiber. However, it sounds like you have an overgrowth of something so that might be food for the bad bugs. Can you tolerate any low oxalate veggies? Fruit? If you are having that much of an issue, I'd stick with food for now. How about fat, can you tolerate sources of fat?

 

[Dutchie]

According to tests there isn't an overgrowth (I've been down the critter paranoia suspicion path many times...), but that's not really uncommon since I hardly ever have anything come up with tests whether it's through conventional or alternative testing.
The only thing which has been coming up in my bloodtests for years is mildly elevated ALT and mildly elevated blood calcium, but it's being dismissed as 'normal' by my GP and other specialists.?

Fat lately is adding to nausea as well. The severity of the nausea is cyclical and seems to be hormonally driven, that's why I suspect my liver (or maybe the entire digestive system).

 

[shanny]

A lot of that testing can be misleading, I often think it's better to really listen to your symptoms and the tests can sometimes back up the answers we already suspect, but in the end it's the symptoms that should be treated, not test results!

Are there any foods you are tolerating at all?? I'm sorry, it sounds like you are not feeling very good and that's so frustrating!

 

[Dutchie]

A lot of that testing can be misleading, I often think it's better to really listen to your symptoms and the tests can sometimes back up the answers we already suspect, but in the end it's the symptoms that should be treated, not test results!

Are there any foods you are tolerating at all?? I'm sorry, it sounds like you are not feeling very good and that's so frustrating!

I don't have the feeling an overgrowth is the cause of this, if there even is any I don't think it's the root cause and thus solution to fix.

I'm almost forced, by food reactions, to go on a meat&fish diet which is something I wouldn't like to have to do. That's why I'm looking into this liver stuff, bc I've suspected my liver is overburdened for many years on&off. Also my high demand for (anima)l protein and the feeling that I lose muscle easily leads me to think my liver is impaired in some way. The thing is that I likely have several metabolic processes which might be working against me, but it's always guesstimating since on paper everything is always fine.
Thankfully, I don't show signs of jaundice which happens in the severe cases, but I have the feeling things still aren't functioning optimally (going by my symptoms).
That's why I questioned using a pectin supplement (at least in the beginning) instead of beans&psyllium to bind bile and see if it makes a difference.
Dandelion and milk thistle are often praised to help the liver as well, however they never did anything noticeable for me.

 

[shanny]

I don't have the feeling an overgrowth is the cause of this, if there even is any I don't think it's the root cause and thus solution to fix.

I'm almost forced, by food reactions, to go on a meat&fish diet which is something I wouldn't like to have to do. That's why I'm looking into this liver stuff, bc I've suspected my liver is overburdened for many years on&off. Also my high demand for (anima)l protein and the feeling that I lose muscle easily leads me to think my liver is impaired in some way. The thing is that I likely have several metabolic processes which might be working against me, but it's always guesstimating since on paper everything is always fine.
Thankfully, I don't show signs of jaundice which happens in the severe cases, but I have the feeling things still aren't functioning optimally (going by my symptoms).
That's why I questioned using a pectin supplement (at least in the beginning) instead of beans&psyllium to bind bile and see if it makes a difference.
Dandelion and milk thistle are often praised to help the liver as well, however they never did anything noticeable for me.

Keeping it simple is often the best approach. Sounds like you have a good understanding of your body and what it needs. Protein from meat and fish definitely support liver detoxification and are high in all of the minerals our bodies crave, so you're on the right track! Do you tolerate things like white rice at all?

 

[Dutchie]

Keeping it simple is often the best approach. Sounds like you have a good understanding of your body and what it needs. Protein from meat and fish definitely support liver detoxification and are high in all of the minerals our bodies crave, so you're on the right track! Do you tolerate things like white rice at all?

Starch slows my bowels too much. I would like to avoid constapition, it'll only add to toxic load.

 

[Dutchie]

Well, I just sent Karen a mail asking whether she thinks a pectin supplement could do the job as well.
Curious if and what she responds...

 

[InChristAlone]

Well, I just sent Karen a mail asking whether she thinks a pectin supplement could do the job as well.
Curious if and what she responds...

Do a search on modified citrus pectin, seems to do the job for people who can't eat fiber, at least on cholesterol levels. But steamed veggies are also a good way to bind bile. @Blossom is healing her oxalate issues with beans.

 

[Stacy]

Peat believes migraines are a symptom of high serotonin which also increases estrogen and histamine which burdens the liver. I've been benefiting from cyproheptadine started at a low dose of 1 mg and increasing. I have temporarily limited muscle meats, liver and egg yolks to help limit tryptophan and inflammatory amino acids and getting most of protein from low fat milk, cheese and some gelatin powder and plenty of OJ with meals and on it's own between meals to help maintain blood sugar. Bamboo shoots for the soluble fibre. I use progest-e. I am also using additional caffeine as well as coffee which I feel is also helping lower serotonin after reading a few Haidut's posts regarding caffeine and it's benefits especially in helping the liver. Having gone backwards and forwards with Peat's recommendations and with more starch and now no starch over the past few years I am now finally seeing improvements in pain free time of the month and improvements with the migraines which have been chronic. Temperature and pulse are improving too. I am also on cynoplus in the evening before bed and extra T3 during the day. I am in my early 50s and this is what is working for me but I wish I knew this information years ago which would have saved me a lot of suffering. Hope this helps and good luck in your healing.

 

[Dutchie]

Do a search on modified citrus pectin, seems to do the job for people who can't eat fiber, at least on cholesterol levels. But steamed veggies are also a good way to bind bile. @Blossom is healing her oxalate issues with beans.

Thanks...yeah, I saw several studies on citrus pectin. Even though my cholesterol never came back out of range.
Aside from oxalates beans have more plant antinutrients,which I'm not so sure about if I immediately want to bomb my system with them. (I also don't like their mealy texture).

Today I suddenly had to think of an LBA I did years ago, according to which they found one of the Hepatitis viruses. Come to think of it....this chronic virus might've continued menacing my liver.
Hepatitis is also being tied to iron metabolism malfunctions. Since I crave and need red meat, I suppose for the iron, I'm now wondering if it's hurting my liver at the same time.? (Obviously many Peat followers will say it does)
It's kind of a double edged sword, can't live with it and can't live without it. (iron in other meats such as chicken isn't sufficient enough for me)

 

[Blossom]

Thanks...yeah, I saw several studies on citrus pectin. Even though my cholesterol never came back out of range.
Aside from oxalates beans have more plant antinutrients,which I'm not so sure about if I immediately want to bomb my system with them. (I also don't like their mealy texture).

Today I suddenly had to think of an LBA I did years ago, according to which they found one of the Hepatitis viruses. Come to think of it....this chronic virus might've continued menacing my liver.
Hepatitis is also being tied to iron metabolism malfunctions. Since I crave and need red meat, I suppose for the iron, I'm now wondering if it's hurting my liver at the same time.? (Obviously many Peat followers will say it does)
It's kind of a double edged sword, can't live with it and can't live without it. (iron in other meats such as chicken isn't sufficient enough for me)

My hormones are doing better with fiber. It does seem worth experimenting with different ones to see what works for you.

 

[Peatful]

Surprised cascara hasnt been mentioned.

Im no pill pusher, but the benefits of CS for gut (liver) and hormone (estrogen) health are well documented and worth considering.

Ray Peat, PhD on Endotoxin – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Cascara, energy, cancer and the FDA's laxative abuse.

The medical culture and the general culture share some attitudes about the nature of the most common ailments--colds, cancer, arthritis, constipation, heart problems, etc., and they often agree about which things can be treated at home, and which require special medical care. These background...

raypeat.com

 

[Dutchie]

My hormones are doing better with fiber. It does seem worth experimenting with different ones to see what works for you.

Yeah,that's why I was thinking of starting out with a pectin supplement, hoping that over time I'll be able to get it from food. (That is if there is still a choice in food by that time, seeing the crazy increased prices?)

Surprised cascara hasnt been mentioned.

It might help others.
For me personally Cascara as well as charcoal and clay didn't do anything other than horribly constipate me, which only adds to toxic burden.

 

[Korven]

For me personally Cascara as well as charcoal and clay didn't do anything other than horribly constipate me, which only adds to toxic burden.

I'm not sure if Dr Garret Smith counts as a credible source of information but he says that constipation from taking sequestrants like clay and activated charcoal is due to insufficient bile flow. I think there might be some truth to it, when my liver was very congested I could not tolerate much fiber from beans or oatmeal at all without getting an "intoxication effect". Have you tried the hot water protocol to stimulate bile flow?

 

[Peatful]

It might help others.
For me personally Cascara as well as charcoal and clay didn't do anything other than horribly constipate me, which only adds to toxic burden.

I haven’t read the full content of the thread.

It was a general statement for others who come after - looking for answers that would align more with Peat (vs Hurd).