Ray said some negative things about DHEA

tallglass13

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
528
Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.
 
Last edited:

gaze

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
1,544
He's warned in hypothyroid people DHEA can possibly convert to estrogen. In a healthy person it can help regenerative things. Pregnenolone is the safer hormone for sick people. In my opinion no hormones are safe to mess with when your sick, especially when the purity of the hormones is questionable.
 
Last edited:

Scenes

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2017
Messages
464
Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.
Even in his main article on dhea/preg/prog, he mentions that dhea is probably best achieved via pregnenolone and thyroid supplementation. In this video, he says cholesterol (if naturally high) and thyroid.

Dhea conversion to testosterone or estrogen in excess is harmful for the thymus (and liver too apparently), hence why Ray never suggests testosterone supplementation, except in very low doses (1mg) and only if everything else is in order.

Haidut is a strong proponent of dhea in doses of 5mg or less being fine, especially if accompanied by progesterone, but Ray always seems a touch reluctant when I've heard them discuss it. Danny's #27 with Georgi and Danny discusses it.
 

TheBeard

Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,041
He's warned in hypothyroid people DHEA can possibly convert to estrogen. In a healthy person it can help regenerative things. Pregnenolone is the safer hormone for sick people. In my opinion no hormones are safe to mess with when your sick, especially when the purity of the hormones is questionable.

Testosterone when you're sick.

What's the risk?
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
5,368
Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.

Here's the interview-


Since he doesn't talk about doses, and standard DHEA supplements can be 25, 50, or 100mg (or more), he could be warning about higher doses. If you listen to the clip, it's pretty clear that the conversion to Estrogen (and maybe Testosterone) are the issues. It sounds like an older interview, so some of his views might have changed, or become more refined. On one podcast, Danny Roddy mentioned Ray was taking some DHEA, but it's on the lower end of the spectrum (I think around or under 5mg a day).
 

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,586
Location
USA / Europe
Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.

Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.
 

Broco6679

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
176
Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.
What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.
 

TheBeard

Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,041
What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.

It's not the dose that suppresses you, it's the chronicity of use.
On mega doses of test base, which is out of the system quickly, I was never shut down.
 

Broco6679

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
176
It's not the dose that suppresses you, it's the chronicity of use.
On mega doses of test base, which is out of the system quickly, I was never shut down.
What is your definition of shutdown? If you use test base for more than a month your LH and FSH will be suppressed while you're on it, which is what I personally mean by shutdown. However, once you stop, the HPTA will come back online as soon as its out of your system, which is I assume what you mean when you say test base didn't shut you down? I.e, there are no lasting effects once its out of your system?
 

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,586
Location
USA / Europe
What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.

If used with some pregnenolone, as per my post below, I don't think it is that big of an issue but I am not sure why one needs to use such massive doses to start with unless somebody is an athlete or with in a very severe catabolic state due to cancer or something similar (e.g. ALS, AIDS, etc).
 

hei

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
221
too stimulating when your in a weakened state.
But that's when you would need it. If you were healthy enough to have high hormone levels you wouldn't have a need for it. Bit of a catch-22.
 

gaze

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
1,544
But that's when you would need it. If you were healthy enough to have high hormone levels you wouldn't have a need for it. Bit of a catch-22.
but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
 

Sefton10

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
298
but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
Very good advice. I'm certainly guilty of trying to go from Level 1 or 2 straight to Level 7 or 8. A staged approach over time is wise otherwise the chances for making things worse seem high. Many if not all of the "Peaty" substances should be icing on the cake built on a solid foundation rather than being the foundation themselves.
 

hei

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
221
but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
Nothing on your first list made any detectable difference for me. Doesn't seem like there's much point bothering with it all if you have to be healthy to get any health improvements from anything.
 

gaze

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
1,544
Nothing on your first list made any detectable difference for me. Doesn't seem like there's much point bothering with it all if you have to be healthy to get any health improvements from anything.
what exactly are you dealing with? there are no cure all's. have you gotten blood tests? and you don't have to be healthy to get improvements from things, but everyone should be able to be relatively functioning to be able to honestly tell how something affects them. For example if you can try some coffee and see how you feel, if you feel worse, then don't push it. But for some sick people, who think peaty things can quickly bring them health, keep pushing it until they crash cause they really don't have a baseline of health.
Very good advice. I'm certainly guilty of trying to go from Level 1 or 2 straight to Level 7 or 8. A staged approach over time is wise otherwise the chances for making things worse seem high. Many if not all of the "Peaty" substances should be icing on the cake built on a solid foundation rather than being the foundation themselves.
agreed. building a good foundation and being familiar with your body is crucial. The problem is stress hormones and adrenaline can throw that off, and then once you start throwing a bunch of supplements at it, it just makes it worse. so enough food and salt and micro nutrients should be goal #1 to reach some sort of homeostasis before you move forward. when I was at my worst, my impression of good health was an abundance of energy, which always led me to try things which ultimately made me crash. Then as I took it slowly , I realized that a high energy state really means your just content and balanced, relaxed, and "normal" as I would describe it.
 

TheBeard

Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,041
What is your definition of shutdown? If you use test base for more than a month your LH and FSH will be suppressed while you're on it, which is what I personally mean by shutdown. However, once you stop, the HPTA will come back online as soon as its out of your system, which is I assume what you mean when you say test base didn't shut you down? I.e, there are no lasting effects once its out of your system?

Exactly
 

James b

Member
Joined
May 10, 2018
Messages
1,099
@haidut and @TheBeard
For those bodybuilding/athletic amongst us, how often do you think you could do a moderate transdermal/scrotal test base application to avoid LH/FSH suppression? Regardless of the fact that a homeostatic rebound seems much easier with test base and topical, I still want to try to avoid tanking the LH/FSH as its not something I want to take anyway, I might as well incorporate it as smartly as I can. Thanks.
 

Beastmode

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
682
Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.

I take mine topically (50-60 mg dissolved in olive oil.) Does that change how oral pregnenolone and/or progesterone greatly reduce the risks of estrogenic conversion if taken at the same time?
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
David PS Ray Peat Interview All things hormones, metabolism and health with Dr Ray Peat & Emma Sgourakis Interviews 3
H All things hormones, metabolism and health with Dr Ray Peat & Emma Sgourakis Interviews 1
S Histamine intolerance explained through a Ray Peat prism Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 49
P How to get in contact with Ray Peat himself Ask For Help or Advice 0
Blaze Ray Peat dissed by Dr. Tom Cowan on Patrick Timpone show Ask For Help or Advice 28
A New to ray peat, trying a lot of haidut and Ray’s recommendations but what am I missing? Metabolism 10
C Ray Peat breakfast ideas? Diet 5
RyanHeeney I'm starting a website based on the metabolism and Dr. Ray Peat's ideas. Ray Peat Topics 28
metabolizm Ray's perspective on the pandemic Interviews 195
meatbag OtBoaT Ray Peat Day 1 Transcript-Personal Background, Influences, and View of Reality and Organisms Audio Interview Transcripts 1
D Anti-Peat Thoughts on this Video by a carnivore attacking the ray peat diet (Harry Serpanos) Debate - Anti-Peat 6
T Discussion: What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least? Ray Peat Topics 76
David PS Ray Peat Interview Jodellfit - Dr Ray Peat - Hormone Replacement, Thyroid, Frequent Snacking, Chronic Fatigue and more Q&A Interviews 4
Lewis Acid #50: DHT for Hair Growth? | New Ray Peat Interviews | Keto and Mitochondria | Childhood Trauma Interviews 14
Lewis Acid Ray Peat on the Coronavirus, Immunity,& Vaccines Part 4_08.08.2020 Politics and Science Radio Show 1
SuperStressed Ray Peat Interview Dr. Ray Peat, Day One: Full Interview from On the Back of a Tiger Interviews 71
Sam321 Ray Peat inspired mayo Diet 8
T New Ray Peater, have some questions Ask For Help or Advice 7
D Ray Peat Search down? Interviews 3
D Complete list Ray Peat newsletters Articles & Newsletters 3
L Ray Peat Interview Jan 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - #47: The Power Elite | Vaccines | Hair Loss | UFOs | Surviving The Great Reset Interviews 102
J Dental X ray, to wear a thyroid shield or not.. Oral Health 12
RealNeat Ray Peat Interview My 2nd podcast episode with Ray (recorded 10/29) released today. Interviews 26
J How does Ray Peat make coffee? Ask For Help or Advice 8
Inaut Ray Peat Torrent Resources 12
joshquintanilla Anti-Peat New Soundbite- Jack Kruse on Ray Peat Debate - Anti-Peat 47
G Ray himself consumes 1600 calories of sugar per day, with 0 white sugar Beverages, Fruits, Sugars 39
metabolizm Book recommended by Ray Ask For Help or Advice 13
Herbie Ray used thyroid to slow his metabolism down. Everyone else doing the opposite. Danny Roddy 29
N Is Ray's Bookstore Web Page Up-to-date? Articles & Newsletters 4
L Ray Peat Interview Dec 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Body Temperature, Current Events, Etc. Interviews 21
Simatta Ray Peat-Inspired Infographic Diet, Recipes 52
livesimply Available EBooks Directly From Ray Peat Book Recommendations 0
L Ray Peat Interview Nov 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Bioenergetics, Thyroid, Stress, News Interviews 8
M Purple Panda Labs (dht) - Ray Suggested Ask For Help or Advice 121
Hgreen56 Ray Peat (high Sugar) Diet Works Only Temporarily (?) Diet 3
burtlancast Since David Ray Griffin Proved 911 Was A False Flag, Why Do Americans Care So Much About Elections ? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 51
B Ray Peat, William Blake Thesis 1960 Book Recommendations 1
JayDee 2020.01.20 : Dr. Ray Peat On Cosmology & Transforming Society | Cooperation Paradigm Audio Interview Transcripts 1
S Ray's Email Address? Ask For Help or Advice 5
JayDee 2020.06.10 : Jodellefit : Dr Ray Peat Q&A - Weight Loss, Stretch Marks, Hydrogen, Negative Ions Audio Interview Transcripts 4
RealNeat "Search By Word" Ray Peat Transcripts + Emails Resources 12
L Ray Peat Interview Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Oct 30, 2020 Interviews 11
O Contacting Ray Ask For Help or Advice 3
B Is There Any Way To Buy A Compilation Of Ray's Newsletters In Book Form? The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 1
F Ray's Ice Cream Recipe Recipes 8
D Danks' Ray Peat Journey Ask For Help or Advice 1
Lejeboca Ray Peat Interview Oct 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov Interviews 0
N Can Anyone Recommend A Practitioner To Help Me With PCOS Who Has Worked With Ray Peet In Australia? Ask For Help or Advice 3
youngsinatra Bodybuilding Diet With Ray Peat Principles Discussing Dietary Models 38

Similar threads

Top