Ray said some negative things about DHEA

tallglass13

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Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.
 
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gaze

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He's warned in hypothyroid people DHEA can possibly convert to estrogen. In a healthy person it can help regenerative things. Pregnenolone is the safer hormone for sick people. In my opinion no hormones are safe to mess with when your sick, especially when the purity of the hormones is questionable.
 
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Scenes

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Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.
Even in his main article on dhea/preg/prog, he mentions that dhea is probably best achieved via pregnenolone and thyroid supplementation. In this video, he says cholesterol (if naturally high) and thyroid.

Dhea conversion to testosterone or estrogen in excess is harmful for the thymus (and liver too apparently), hence why Ray never suggests testosterone supplementation, except in very low doses (1mg) and only if everything else is in order.

Haidut is a strong proponent of dhea in doses of 5mg or less being fine, especially if accompanied by progesterone, but Ray always seems a touch reluctant when I've heard them discuss it. Danny's #27 with Georgi and Danny discusses it.
 
T

TheBeard

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He's warned in hypothyroid people DHEA can possibly convert to estrogen. In a healthy person it can help regenerative things. Pregnenolone is the safer hormone for sick people. In my opinion no hormones are safe to mess with when your sick, especially when the purity of the hormones is questionable.

Testosterone when you're sick.

What's the risk?
 

tankasnowgod

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Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.

Here's the interview-



Since he doesn't talk about doses, and standard DHEA supplements can be 25, 50, or 100mg (or more), he could be warning about higher doses. If you listen to the clip, it's pretty clear that the conversion to Estrogen (and maybe Testosterone) are the issues. It sounds like an older interview, so some of his views might have changed, or become more refined. On one podcast, Danny Roddy mentioned Ray was taking some DHEA, but it's on the lower end of the spectrum (I think around or under 5mg a day).
 

haidut

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Hey everyone,
In this interview on YouTube by Ray Peat podcast transcribed by light , called thyroid / progesterone and diet. @ 26:25...
Ray stated that DHEA was toxic, and caused a man to have his liver enlarged to a size of a watermelon. Please listen to this excerpt, and comment accordingly. Pardon me I was unable to copy and paste the YouTube video. Please find it from my titles.
@27:00, he stated in rat studies DHEA is highly carcinogenic.
I maybe mis -listening, so if anyone can unpack this for me that would be great.

Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.
 

Broco6679

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Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.
What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.
 
T

TheBeard

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What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.

It's not the dose that suppresses you, it's the chronicity of use.
On mega doses of test base, which is out of the system quickly, I was never shut down.
 

Broco6679

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It's not the dose that suppresses you, it's the chronicity of use.
On mega doses of test base, which is out of the system quickly, I was never shut down.
What is your definition of shutdown? If you use test base for more than a month your LH and FSH will be suppressed while you're on it, which is what I personally mean by shutdown. However, once you stop, the HPTA will come back online as soon as its out of your system, which is I assume what you mean when you say test base didn't shut you down? I.e, there are no lasting effects once its out of your system?
 

haidut

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What are your thoughts on the use of HPTA suppressing doses of testosterone, Haidut? Haven't seen you discuss this before outside of condemning the esters and seed oil used in big pharma preparations.

If used with some pregnenolone, as per my post below, I don't think it is that big of an issue but I am not sure why one needs to use such massive doses to start with unless somebody is an athlete or with in a very severe catabolic state due to cancer or something similar (e.g. ALS, AIDS, etc).
 

hei

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too stimulating when your in a weakened state.
But that's when you would need it. If you were healthy enough to have high hormone levels you wouldn't have a need for it. Bit of a catch-22.
 

gaze

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But that's when you would need it. If you were healthy enough to have high hormone levels you wouldn't have a need for it. Bit of a catch-22.
but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
 

Sefton10

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but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
Very good advice. I'm certainly guilty of trying to go from Level 1 or 2 straight to Level 7 or 8. A staged approach over time is wise otherwise the chances for making things worse seem high. Many if not all of the "Peaty" substances should be icing on the cake built on a solid foundation rather than being the foundation themselves.
 

hei

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but supplementing hormones in a weak, low energy person who can't maintain the high hormone levels will basically wreck the thymus gland, raise cortisol, and possibly estrogen. I think it would be better to do "protective inhibition" things, such as salt, magnesium and calcium, eating enough protein, eating enough carbs for the liver to produce cholesterol, saturated fats to protect against endotoxin, possibly antibiotics if the situation is dire, carrot salad, sleeping, vitamin D. Once you can maintain yourself eating at 2000-3000 calories a day, store glycogen relatively ok, are "in control" of your emotions and can think logically, and your still waking up with some nagging problems after a few months, then experimenting in aspirin, hormones, thyroid, might help push you in the right direction. But in my own experience, when I was stressed and wasnt in tune with how I felt, I would try "peaty" things like coffee (even with a lot of sugar and cream), baking soda, it just made it worse. now I can try things without it sending me in the opposite negative direction
Nothing on your first list made any detectable difference for me. Doesn't seem like there's much point bothering with it all if you have to be healthy to get any health improvements from anything.
 

gaze

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Nothing on your first list made any detectable difference for me. Doesn't seem like there's much point bothering with it all if you have to be healthy to get any health improvements from anything.
what exactly are you dealing with? there are no cure all's. have you gotten blood tests? and you don't have to be healthy to get improvements from things, but everyone should be able to be relatively functioning to be able to honestly tell how something affects them. For example if you can try some coffee and see how you feel, if you feel worse, then don't push it. But for some sick people, who think peaty things can quickly bring them health, keep pushing it until they crash cause they really don't have a baseline of health.
Very good advice. I'm certainly guilty of trying to go from Level 1 or 2 straight to Level 7 or 8. A staged approach over time is wise otherwise the chances for making things worse seem high. Many if not all of the "Peaty" substances should be icing on the cake built on a solid foundation rather than being the foundation themselves.
agreed. building a good foundation and being familiar with your body is crucial. The problem is stress hormones and adrenaline can throw that off, and then once you start throwing a bunch of supplements at it, it just makes it worse. so enough food and salt and micro nutrients should be goal #1 to reach some sort of homeostasis before you move forward. when I was at my worst, my impression of good health was an abundance of energy, which always led me to try things which ultimately made me crash. Then as I took it slowly , I realized that a high energy state really means your just content and balanced, relaxed, and "normal" as I would describe it.
 
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TheBeard

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What is your definition of shutdown? If you use test base for more than a month your LH and FSH will be suppressed while you're on it, which is what I personally mean by shutdown. However, once you stop, the HPTA will come back online as soon as its out of your system, which is I assume what you mean when you say test base didn't shut you down? I.e, there are no lasting effects once its out of your system?

Exactly
 

golder

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@haidut and @TheBeard
For those bodybuilding/athletic amongst us, how often do you think you could do a moderate transdermal/scrotal test base application to avoid LH/FSH suppression? Regardless of the fact that a homeostatic rebound seems much easier with test base and topical, I still want to try to avoid tanking the LH/FSH as its not something I want to take anyway, I might as well incorporate it as smartly as I can. Thanks.
 

Beastmode

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Yet, he has said multiple times that he himself takes 2mg-3mg daily. He has also said, that combining it with pregnenolone or progesterone greatly reduces risks of estrogenic conversion and that when he takes DHEA he takes it with progesterone or thyroid.

I take mine topically (50-60 mg dissolved in olive oil.) Does that change how oral pregnenolone and/or progesterone greatly reduce the risks of estrogenic conversion if taken at the same time?
 
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