Fructose reprogrammes glutamine-dependent oxidative metabolism to support LPS-induced inflammation

[CLASH]

but fructose causes advanced glycation end products more than glucose.

This isn't exactly the case. While fructose creates marginally more advanced glycation end products than glucose, the amount of free fructose that is in serum to create those end products is minimal. What this means is that in the body fructose doesn't create more advanced glycation end products than glucose does, overall. I'm pretty sure the main component indicated in the formation of advanced glycation end products is Methylglyoxal. Methylglyoxal seems to be created largely via ketosis, and via the excess glycolysis seen in diabetes.

Methylglyoxal Comes of AGE

The posttranslational modification of proteins by methylglyoxal, a highly reactive compound derived from glycolysis, may contribute to aging, diabetes, and other disorders. In this issue of Cell, Brownlee and colleagues (Yao et al., 2006) demonstrate a specific mechanism by which methylglyoxal...

www.cell.com

Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | Request PDF

Request PDF | Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | In the popular and widely used Atkins diet, the body burns fat as its main fuel. This process produces ketosis and hence increased levels of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Elevated level of methylglyoxal during diabetic ketoacidosis and its recovery phase

Carbonyl stress is hypothesized to be an associated complication of diabetic ketoacidosis. The production of the glycolytic intermediate methylglyoxal…

www.sciencedirect.com

what about chlorophyll as a fighting agent against endotoxins? is it true that our cousin primates fought endotoxins from fruits with eating grass and leaves?
I had a desire to occasionally taste some leaves when I was a child.

I haven't found a single study to show the ingestion of fruits creating endotoxemia. If anything most studies show that fruits are protective from endotoxemia. Chlorophyll's protective mechanisms in the GI tract seem to be centered more around protecting against Heme Iron than endotoxin from what I can tell. The polyphenols in leaves, and in fruits are protective against dysbiosis and endotoxemia.

Also, different primates eat different diets. Bonobos and chimps eat more ripe fruit based diets. Gorillas and orangoutangs can eat more fibrous plant matter like pith, twigs, bark, grasses, etc. Lower monkeys have a mix depending on the species.

 

[CLASH]

any idea how dried fruit gives me terrible sideeffects regardless of type of fruit and all else I am able to ome up with. I get blood sugar fluctations (at least it feels like it didnt measure glucose), and really dry mouth. No reaction like this to the same fruits when fresh and not to any kind of sugars I know of neither refined or in its natural context. Never figured out what happens. Is the glycemic index different??

Just saw this @Eberhardt, your quote didn't show up in my notifications bar, or perhaps I missed it. I just saw your message as I was going through the thread to answer dabdabdab, who's message showed up in my notifications.

It could be related to a host of different factors. The dried fruit could have additives, it could be contaminated with mold, it could have been unripe, it could be irritating your intestine. Also, perhaps it may have something to do with the dried nature of the dried fruit, pulling water into the intestine. It may also be a microbiome issue on your end. Theres quite a few possible mechanisms, without more specific information its hard for me to formulate any reliable hypothesis.

I dont think the glycemic index changes much for dried vs. fresh fruit, with the exception that dried fruit has much more sugar, fiber, nutrients, etc. per unit weight because the water has been extracted from the fruit.

 

[Dr. B]

This isn't exactly the case. While fructose creates marginally more advanced glycation end products than glucose, the amount of free fructose that is in serum to create those end products is minimal. What this means is that in the body fructose doesn't create more advanced glycation end products than glucose does, overall. I'm pretty sure the main component indicated in the formation of advanced glycation end products is Methylglyoxal. Methylglyoxal seems to be created largely via ketosis, and via the excess glycolysis seen in diabetes.

Methylglyoxal Comes of AGE

The posttranslational modification of proteins by methylglyoxal, a highly reactive compound derived from glycolysis, may contribute to aging, diabetes, and other disorders. In this issue of Cell, Brownlee and colleagues (Yao et al., 2006) demonstrate a specific mechanism by which methylglyoxal...

www.cell.com

Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | Request PDF

Request PDF | Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | In the popular and widely used Atkins diet, the body burns fat as its main fuel. This process produces ketosis and hence increased levels of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Elevated level of methylglyoxal during diabetic ketoacidosis and its recovery phase

Carbonyl stress is hypothesized to be an associated complication of diabetic ketoacidosis. The production of the glycolytic intermediate methylglyoxal…

www.sciencedirect.com

I haven't found a single study to show the ingestion of fruits creating endotoxemia. If anything most studies show that fruits are protective from endotoxemia. Chlorophyll's protective mechanisms in the GI tract seem to be centered more around protecting against Heme Iron than endotoxin from what I can tell. The polyphenols in leaves, and in fruits are protective against dysbiosis and endotoxemia.

Also, different primates eat different diets. Bonobos and chimps eat more ripe fruit based diets. Gorillas and orangoutangs can eat more fibrous plant matter like pith, twigs, bark, grasses, etc. Lower monkeys have a mix depending on the species.

i dont understand
isnt there an entire class of honey, manuka honey which is rated by its methylglyoxal content? is manuka honey dangerous/not advised? with manuka honey, the more expensive the manuka honey, generally the more methylglyoxal it has in it.

Just saw this @Eberhardt, your quote didn't show up in my notifications bar, or perhaps I missed it. I just saw your message as I was going through the thread to answer dabdabdab, who's message showed up in my notifications.

It could be related to a host of different factors. The dried fruit could have additives, it could be contaminated with mold, it could have been unripe, it could be irritating your intestine. Also, perhaps it may have something to do with the dried nature of the dried fruit, pulling water into the intestine. It may also be a microbiome issue on your end. Theres quite a few possible mechanisms, without more specific information its hard for me to formulate any reliable hypothesis.

I dont think the glycemic index changes much for dried vs. fresh fruit, with the exception that dried fruit has much more sugar, fiber, nutrients, etc. per unit weight because the water has been extracted from the fruit.

what about eating great lakes orange can gelatin, just with a spoon straight out the jar? i was thinking of eating 5 ounces a day of the stuff to get over 100g protein from gelatin

 

[dabdabdab]

This isn't exactly the case. While fructose creates marginally more advanced glycation end products than glucose, the amount of free fructose that is in serum to create those end products is minimal. What this means is that in the body fructose doesn't create more advanced glycation end products than glucose does, overall. I'm pretty sure the main component indicated in the formation of advanced glycation end products is Methylglyoxal. Methylglyoxal seems to be created largely via ketosis, and via the excess glycolysis seen in diabetes.

Methylglyoxal Comes of AGE

The posttranslational modification of proteins by methylglyoxal, a highly reactive compound derived from glycolysis, may contribute to aging, diabetes, and other disorders. In this issue of Cell, Brownlee and colleagues (Yao et al., 2006) demonstrate a specific mechanism by which methylglyoxal...

www.cell.com

Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | Request PDF

Request PDF | Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet | In the popular and widely used Atkins diet, the body burns fat as its main fuel. This process produces ketosis and hence increased levels of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Elevated level of methylglyoxal during diabetic ketoacidosis and its recovery phase

Carbonyl stress is hypothesized to be an associated complication of diabetic ketoacidosis. The production of the glycolytic intermediate methylglyoxal…

www.sciencedirect.com

I haven't found a single study to show the ingestion of fruits creating endotoxemia. If anything most studies show that fruits are protective from endotoxemia. Chlorophyll's protective mechanisms in the GI tract seem to be centered more around protecting against Heme Iron than endotoxin from what I can tell. The polyphenols in leaves, and in fruits are protective against dysbiosis and endotoxemia.

Also, different primates eat different diets. Bonobos and chimps eat more ripe fruit based diets. Gorillas and orangoutangs can eat more fibrous plant matter like pith, twigs, bark, grasses, etc. Lower monkeys have a mix depending on the species.

thanks for the extensive information, but what about when fructose isn't absorbed completely? like in high endotoxin and low glucose to fructose ratio?
doesn't that excess amount lead to high glycatio level?

 

[CLASH]

i dont understand
isnt there an entire class of honey, manuka honey which is rated by its methylglyoxal content? is manuka honey dangerous/not advised? with manuka honey, the more expensive the manuka honey, generally the more methylglyoxal it has in it.



what about eating great lakes orange can gelatin, just with a spoon straight out the jar? i was thinking of eating 5 ounces a day of the stuff to get over 100g protein from gelatin

The difference is context. Consumption of methylglyoxal via Manuka honey seems to have a different effect than the Methylglyoxal created at the cell. Manuka honey is generally consumed for its anti-bacterial properties. I have tried it in the past, I think it is over expensive for the benefit I actually received. In my experience there were better anti-microbial compounds, and regular raw honey has benefits for wound healing without having any Methylglyoxal. The Methylglyoxal in the honey may actually be an issue for wound healing.

I'm not sure where the Great Lakes gelatin questions comes from? It isn't directly related to my response to @Eberhardt.

 

[CLASH]

thanks for the extensive information, but what about when fructose isn't absorbed completely? like in high endotoxin and low glucose to fructose ratio?
doesn't that excess amount lead to high glycatio level?

No problem.

The glycation from the fructose would have to occur in the body, meaning it would have to be absorbed. So, if the fructose is not being absorbed because of a poor fructose to glucose ratio, this means that the glycation in the body is unlikely to occur from the non-absorbed fructose.

The high endotoxin may enhance glycation by impairing glucose oxidation, and forcing increased glycolysis, and fatty acid oxidation. However, while poor glucose to fructose ratio in certain fruits may increase bowel symptoms, in many studies the fruit polyphenols, vitamins, minerals, and fiber are protective against endotoxemia. Even mangoes, which absolutely wreck my gut in large amounts show protective effects despite having a poor glucose to fructose ratio and FODMAPs.

 

[Eberhardt]

Just saw this @Eberhardt, your quote didn't show up in my notifications bar, or perhaps I missed it. I just saw your message as I was going through the thread to answer dabdabdab, who's message showed up in my notifications.

It could be related to a host of different factors. The dried fruit could have additives, it could be contaminated with mold, it could have been unripe, it could be irritating your intestine. Also, perhaps it may have something to do with the dried nature of the dried fruit, pulling water into the intestine. It may also be a microbiome issue on your end. Theres quite a few possible mechanisms, without more specific information its hard for me to formulate any reliable hypothesis.

I dont think the glycemic index changes much for dried vs. fresh fruit, with the exception that dried fruit has much more sugar, fiber, nutrients, etc. per unit weight because the water has been extracted from the fruit.

THis happens sometimes. Thanks for the answer I had forgot I wrote this. But I think you might be on to something. Point is it happens with ALL dried fruit - everything from privatly grown apples in the garden and forest berries, to different brands including organic non-additive ones. It's come to think of it only one thing that gives me the same effect only worse and that is freezedried - I think the water pulling might have something to do with it?? I cant say if it's the microbiome or not. the effects was a little milder in my teens but thats a long time ago. I did use to take some digestive aid bacterias a long time ago and didnt really notice any change, but then again hard to tell. It is of course also possible that mold is almost inevitable with drying - but on the other hand I dont get the same reaction when I actually accidentaly consume mold say from a moldy apple, as when I eat it dried. And I dont need to go ape to have the effects so its not about the amount. I can eat up to 5 apples a day without any sideeffects but a couple of slices of dried ones are enough.

 

[Dr. B]

THis happens sometimes. Thanks for the answer I had forgot I wrote this. But I think you might be on to something. Point is it happens with ALL dried fruit - everything from privatly grown apples in the garden and forest berries, to different brands including organic non-additive ones. It's come to think of it only one thing that gives me the same effect only worse and that is freezedried - I think the water pulling might have something to do with it?? I cant say if it's the microbiome or not. the effects was a little milder in my teens but thats a long time ago. I did use to take some digestive aid bacterias a long time ago and didnt really notice any change, but then again hard to tell. It is of course also possible that mold is almost inevitable with drying - but on the other hand I dont get the same reaction when I actually accidentaly consume mold say from a moldy apple, as when I eat it dried. And I dont need to go ape to have the effects so its not about the amount. I can eat up to 5 apples a day without any sideeffects but a couple of slices of dried ones are enough.

hows mold caused by dryness, isnt mold caused by moisture and wetness?

No problem.

The glycation from the fructose would have to occur in the body, meaning it would have to be absorbed. So, if the fructose is not being absorbed because of a poor fructose to glucose ratio, this means that the glycation in the body is unlikely to occur from the non-absorbed fructose.

The high endotoxin may enhance glycation by impairing glucose oxidation, and forcing increased glycolysis, and fatty acid oxidation. However, while poor glucose to fructose ratio in certain fruits may increase bowel symptoms, in many studies the fruit polyphenols, vitamins, minerals, and fiber are protective against endotoxemia. Even mangoes, which absolutely wreck my gut in large amounts show protective effects despite having a poor glucose to fructose ratio and FODMAPs.

whats the fructose and glucose percentages in mango, why do they mess you up arent they a tropical, island fruit.

The difference is context. Consumption of methylglyoxal via Manuka honey seems to have a different effect than the Methylglyoxal created at the cell. Manuka honey is generally consumed for its anti-bacterial properties. I have tried it in the past, I think it is over expensive for the benefit I actually received. In my experience there were better anti-microbial compounds, and regular raw honey has benefits for wound healing without having any Methylglyoxal. The Methylglyoxal in the honey may actually be an issue for wound healing.

I'm not sure where the Great Lakes gelatin questions comes from? It isn't directly related to my response to @Eberhardt.

i dont know mate... do you have any thoughts on the gelatin even so

 

[Sefton10]

•Honey: imbalanced towards fructose. Can cause serious fructose malabsorption
•Milk- mostly lactose which is glucose and galactose. The galactose is used for myelin production in infants, and glucose for energy. Lactose requires lactase persistence and/or a solid microbiome to be digested without issue

Would consuming milk and honey together essentially reduce the imbalance of too much fructose in the honey and aid in its absorption?

 

[CLASH]

THis happens sometimes. Thanks for the answer I had forgot I wrote this. But I think you might be on to something. Point is it happens with ALL dried fruit - everything from privatly grown apples in the garden and forest berries, to different brands including organic non-additive ones. It's come to think of it only one thing that gives me the same effect only worse and that is freezedried - I think the water pulling might have something to do with it?? I cant say if it's the microbiome or not. the effects was a little milder in my teens but thats a long time ago. I did use to take some digestive aid bacterias a long time ago and didnt really notice any change, but then again hard to tell. It is of course also possible that mold is almost inevitable with drying - but on the other hand I dont get the same reaction when I actually accidentaly consume mold say from a moldy apple, as when I eat it dried. And I dont need to go ape to have the effects so its not about the amount. I can eat up to 5 apples a day without any sideeffects but a couple of slices of dried ones are enough.

I think it may indeed have something to do with the water pulling effect then. If it was a microbiome issue its likely you'd also see it with the fresh fruit, especially a fruit like apple and especially at an amount of 5 apples per day. Since you tolerate the moldy apply its possible to rule out mold. Since it happens with non-additive brans we can rule that out as well. Even with all of these factors ruled out, its still only a hypothesis.

I will say though, if I overdo dried persimmon, which is a personal favorite of mine, I can develop issues as well. I am able to get away with a fair amount tho before that happens. The stipulation here, is I tend to eat the dried persimmon and other dried fruits with about 12-16oz of fluids. If I eat an excess of dried persimmon without fluid I can feel dehydrated.

hows mold caused by dryness, isnt mold caused by moisture and wetness?



whats the fructose and glucose percentages in mango, why do they mess you up arent they a tropical, island fruit.


i dont know mate... do you have any thoughts on the gelatin even so

When the fruit is first drying it is still moist. In this period while it is still moist, it may develop some mold.

Mango has 10g of fructose to 5g of fructose, with about 15g of sucrose. It also contains some FODMAPS. This combination can cause some gut issues in people with sensitive GI systems. Whether its a tropical fruit or not, has little to do with how you may or may not tolerate the fruit. I tolerate Peaches better than mangos despite them not being a tropical fruit, and having some FODMAPS as well. Although the FODMAP type is different.

Haha No worries, it was just a bit out of left field in relation to the quote you chose. I assume you were asking in relation to eating raw gelatin without mixing it with water and having it have a similar effect to the dried fruit. Tolerance to Gelatin is highly individual. Some people can eat it no problem, other get serious digestive issues from it, like bloating, gas, rashes, mood disturbances, etc. If gelatin isn't tolerated I'd try collagen hydrolysate.

I always recommend any I work with to make sure they dissolve the gelatin in a liquid to improve digestion. I have found raw gelatin to cause some of the most issues for people. While collagen hydrolysate dissolved in a hot liquid to cause significantly less issues. There is a spectrum of tolerance that's individual dependent.

Would consuming milk and honey together essentially reduce the imbalance of too much fructose in the honey and aid in its absorption?

Its possible.

The first piece to keep in mind is the type of honey. Different honeys can contain some other compounds that may cause issues (whether some FODMAP type of carbohydrate, or irritating plant compound). I think overall tolerance to honey is type dependent and person dependent. For example, I tolerate clover honey pretty well, but a wildflower honey can make me feel pretty bad.

You'd have to be lactose tolerate, in theory at least, to balance the glucose that gets hydrolyzed out of lactose by lactase with the excess fructose from the honey. Milk protein has some unique peptides that can have an anti-microbial effect as well, these may help. We can postulate on mechanism all day, but what it always comes down to is testing out your individual reaction to that combination.

Much of the research that I've seen doesn't test for these types of things, they generally only look at one or two variables max. Even if studies existed that looked at these numerous interrelated variables, you'd still always have the challenge of application to your individual physiology. This is why I think personal experimentation is so important.

 

[Sefton10]

The first piece to keep in mind is the type of honey. Different honeys can contain some other compounds that may cause issues (whether some FODMAP type of carbohydrate, or irritating plant compound). I think overall tolerance to honey is type dependent and person dependent. For example, I tolerate clover honey pretty well, but a wildflower honey can make me feel pretty bad.

You'd have to be lactose tolerate, in theory at least, to balance the glucose that gets hydrolyzed out of lactose by lactase with the excess fructose from the honey. Milk protein has some unique peptides that can have an anti-microbial effect as well, these may help. We can postulate on mechanism all day, but what it always comes down to is testing out your individual reaction to that combination.

Much of the research that I've seen doesn't test for these types of things, they generally only look at one or two variables max. Even if studies existed that looked at these numerous interrelated variables, you'd still always have the challenge of application to your individual physiology. This is why I think personal experimentation is so important.

Cheers for the thoughtful response, appreciate it. I agree - personal experimentation trumps theory.

 

[Dr. B]

I think it may indeed have something to do with the water pulling effect then. If it was a microbiome issue its likely you'd also see it with the fresh fruit, especially a fruit like apple and especially at an amount of 5 apples per day. Since you tolerate the moldy apply its possible to rule out mold. Since it happens with non-additive brans we can rule that out as well. Even with all of these factors ruled out, its still only a hypothesis.

I will say though, if I overdo dried persimmon, which is a personal favorite of mine, I can develop issues as well. I am able to get away with a fair amount tho before that happens. The stipulation here, is I tend to eat the dried persimmon and other dried fruits with about 12-16oz of fluids. If I eat an excess of dried persimmon without fluid I can feel dehydrated.




When the fruit is first drying it is still moist. In this period while it is still moist, it may develop some mold.

Mango has 10g of fructose to 5g of fructose, with about 15g of sucrose. It also contains some FODMAPS. This combination can cause some gut issues in people with sensitive GI systems. Whether its a tropical fruit or not, has little to do with how you may or may not tolerate the fruit. I tolerate Peaches better than mangos despite them not being a tropical fruit, and having some FODMAPS as well. Although the FODMAP type is different.

Haha No worries, it was just a bit out of left field in relation to the quote you chose. I assume you were asking in relation to eating raw gelatin without mixing it with water and having it have a similar effect to the dried fruit. Tolerance to Gelatin is highly individual. Some people can eat it no problem, other get serious digestive issues from it, like bloating, gas, rashes, mood disturbances, etc. If gelatin isn't tolerated I'd try collagen hydrolysate.

I always recommend any I work with to make sure they dissolve the gelatin in a liquid to improve digestion. I have found raw gelatin to cause some of the most issues for people. While collagen hydrolysate dissolved in a hot liquid to cause significantly less issues. There is a spectrum of tolerance that's individual dependent.



Its possible.

The first piece to keep in mind is the type of honey. Different honeys can contain some other compounds that may cause issues (whether some FODMAP type of carbohydrate, or irritating plant compound). I think overall tolerance to honey is type dependent and person dependent. For example, I tolerate clover honey pretty well, but a wildflower honey can make me feel pretty bad.

You'd have to be lactose tolerate, in theory at least, to balance the glucose that gets hydrolyzed out of lactose by lactase with the excess fructose from the honey. Milk protein has some unique peptides that can have an anti-microbial effect as well, these may help. We can postulate on mechanism all day, but what it always comes down to is testing out your individual reaction to that combination.

Much of the research that I've seen doesn't test for these types of things, they generally only look at one or two variables max. Even if studies existed that looked at these numerous interrelated variables, you'd still always have the challenge of application to your individual physiology. This is why I think personal experimentation is so important.

mate do you get organic? any non organic fruit can cause issues, just by nature of the numerous issues with non organic food and produce.
mango has equal amounts fructose sucrose then? thats the same as table sugar, honey no?
someone said dried fruit increases body heat and temperature?
yeah I wonder if gelatin can be eaten, then drink some juice alongside it for the liquid? better than cooking it in water?
does gelatin contain BCAA, glutamine and all important amino acids besides cysteine and tryptophan?

 

[jnklheimer]

Saying fructose is fructose is like saying all eggs are the same. He says no corn fructose is safe. I haven't heard a limit on the orange juice.

there was a discussion about that hfcs containing starches thing in a previous post from awhile ago, and it turns out the original study that found the starch was flawed, apparently. im under the impression modern hfcs is pretty pure

 

[CLASH]

mate do you get organic? any non organic fruit can cause issues, just by nature of the numerous issues with non organic food and produce.
mango has equal amounts fructose sucrose then? thats the same as table sugar, honey no?
someone said dried fruit increases body heat and temperature?
yeah I wonder if gelatin can be eaten, then drink some juice alongside it for the liquid? better than cooking it in water?
does gelatin contain BCAA, glutamine and all important amino acids besides cysteine and tryptophan?

I get organic when I can; its not all or nothing for me, its a spectrum of choices depending on what I have available.

It has about 5g less fructose than sucrose. Its not the same, there is still an excess of fructose since sucrose is broken down with a 1:1 ratio of glucose to fructose. The fructose I mentioned in the mango is free fructose. Mango also can be high in FODMAPS.

How dried fruit effects someone is individual in my experience.

You could also mix collagen hydrolysate in the juice. This is what I often have my clients do.

Gelatin does not contain BCAA, I'm pretty sure it does contain glutamine. It is not a complete protein overall, also not great for triggering muscle protein synthesis which is leucine dependent.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Gelatin does not contain BCAA, I'm pretty sure it does contain glutamine. It is not a complete protein overall, also not great for triggering muscle protein synthesis which is leucine dependent.

I agree. Gelatin is a refined food, effectively. If you ingest multiple ounces of gelatin per day, either your protein intake will be too high, or you'll run into nutrient deficiencies. Best to use meat or milk as a protein source and just enough gelatin to balance out the methionine: glycine ratio( which in beef, particularly ground beef, is already pretty good).
@Mr.Bollox

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I agree. Gelatin is a refined food, effectively. If you ingest multiple ounces of gelatin per day, either your protein intake will be too high, or you'll run into nutrient deficiencies. Best to use meat or milk as a protein source and just enough gelatin to balance out the methionine: glycine ratio( which in beef, particularly ground beef, is already pretty good).
@Mr.Bollox

"It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging." -Ray Peat

 

[CLASH]

"It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging." -Ray Peat

While depleting certain amino acids can increase longevity in rats, worms, and yeast, those amino acids have specific beneficial effects in other contexts within the human body (methylation, glutathione, liver detoxification, muscle anabolism, neurotransmitter production etc.). Depleting them can cause significant issues for people. Using gelatin as a supplement to balance methionine with glycine is helpful, however this depends on tolerance to gelatin and collagen hydrolysate.

Also, if I'm not mistaken the rats in which these specific amino acids were depleted where excessively small and underweight.

Some of Ray's comments around gelatin indicated an intake of around 1/3 total protein. At 150g of protein intake, which is the high end requirement of an individual at around 190lbs, that leaves 100g of protein left from animal non-gelatin sources.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

While depleting certain amino acids can increase longevity in rats, worms, and yeast, those amino acids have specific beneficial effects in other contexts within the human body (methylation, glutathione, liver detoxification, muscle anabolism, neurotransmitter production etc.). Depleting them can cause significant issues for people. Using gelatin as a supplement to balance methionine with glycine is helpful, however this depends on tolerance to gelatin and collagen hydrolysate.

Also, if I'm not mistaken the rats in which these specific amino acids were depleted where excessively small and underweight.

Some of Ray's comments around gelatin indicated an intake of around 1/3 total protein. At 150g of protein intake, which is the high end requirement of an individual at around 190lbs, that leaves 100g of protein left from animal non-gelatin sources.

Ray himself talks about having bone broths and the histamine issues that come with long cooked broths and imagine those obliterated powders. I know they are a nice shortcuts, but I don't that is where he is recommending our gelatin to come from. He recommends short cooked broths with skin and connective tissue, chiccarones and chicken wings. Here is his diet, which is not complicated or with shortcuts, such as powdered gelatin. I am sure it is better than nothing, but it does have possible histamine or digestive issues attached to it. I have him recommend 50% of the diet to be gelatin.


View: https://youtu.be/X_BKjS3rpmw

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.
If a person eats a large serving of meat, it's probably helpful to have 5 or 10 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time, so that the amino acids enter the blood stream in balance." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is a positive RP quote for powdered gelatin at bedtime....

"Although I pointed out a long time ago the antithyroid effects of excessive cysteine and tryptophan from eating only the muscle meats, and have been recommending gelatinous broth at bedtime to stop nocturnal stress, it took me many years to begin to experiment with large amounts of gelatin in my diet. Focusing on the various toxic effects of tryptophan and cysteine, I decided that using commercial gelatin, instead of broth, would be helpful for the experiment. For years I hadn't slept through a whole night without waking, and I was in the habit of having some juice or a little thyroid to help me go back to sleep. The first time I had several grams of gelatin just before bedtime, I slept without interruption for about 9 hours. I mentioned this effect to some friends, and later they told me that friends and relatives of theirs had recovered from long-standing pain problems (arthritic and rheumatic and possibly neurological) in just a few days after taking 10 or 15 grams of gelatin each day." -Ray Peat