Fructose reprogrammes glutamine-dependent oxidative metabolism to support LPS-induced inflammation

[Dr. B]

I get organic when I can; its not all or nothing for me, its a spectrum of choices depending on what I have available.

It has about 5g less fructose than sucrose. Its not the same, there is still an excess of fructose since sucrose is broken down with a 1:1 ratio of glucose to fructose. The fructose I mentioned in the mango is free fructose. Mango also can be high in FODMAPS.

How dried fruit effects someone is individual in my experience.

You could also mix collagen hydrolysate in the juice. This is what I often have my clients do.

Gelatin does not contain BCAA, I'm pretty sure it does contain glutamine. It is not a complete protein overall, also not great for triggering muscle protein synthesis which is leucine dependent.

hey mate im confused maybe im not understanding the terminology
isnt sucrose = half glucose half fructose

if theres 5g less fructose than sucrose why is there an excess of fructose if sucrose is broken down with 1:1 ratio glucose to fructose

ah that sucks...
so it lacks cysteine and tryptophan which is good but then it also lacks BCAA... those are important..
i think whey protein may be the best protein source then?

I agree. Gelatin is a refined food, effectively. If you ingest multiple ounces of gelatin per day, either your protein intake will be too high, or you'll run into nutrient deficiencies. Best to use meat or milk as a protein source and just enough gelatin to balance out the methionine: glycine ratio( which in beef, particularly ground beef, is already pretty good).
@Mr.Bollox

why would ingesting multple ounces gelatin cause nutrient deficiencies do you mean if we avoid meat/milk protein sources? or does the gelatin itself cause nutrient deficiencies

Ray himself talks about having bone broths and the histamine issues that come with long cooked broths and imagine those obliterated powders. I know they are a nice shortcuts, but I don't that is where he is recommending our gelatin to come from. He recommends short cooked broths with skin and connective tissue, chiccarones and chicken wings. Here is his diet, which is not complicated or with shortcuts, such as powdered gelatin. I am sure it is better than nothing, but it does have possible histamine or digestive issues attached to it. I have him recommend 50% of the diet to be gelatin.


View: https://youtu.be/X_BKjS3rpmw

so youre saying the gelatin powders like great lakes gelatin causes serious histamine issues? what causes the histamine issues i thought gelatin is low in histidine

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

hey mate im confused maybe im not understanding the terminology
isnt sucrose = half glucose half fructose

if theres 5g less fructose than sucrose why is there an excess of fructose if sucrose is broken down with 1:1 ratio glucose to fructose

ah that sucks...
so it lacks cysteine and tryptophan which is good but then it also lacks BCAA... those are important..
i think whey protein may be the best protein source then?



why would ingesting multple ounces gelatin cause nutrient deficiencies do you mean if we avoid meat/milk protein sources? or does the gelatin itself cause nutrient deficiencies



so youre saying the gelatin powders like great lakes gelatin causes serious histamine issues? what causes the histamine issues i thought gelatin is low in histidine

Dried proteins and fruitz or aged things raise histamines. Gelatin is on the avoid list for keeping histamines low.

 

[Eberhardt]

hey mate im confused maybe im not understanding the terminology
isnt sucrose = half glucose half fructose

if theres 5g less fructose than sucrose why is there an excess of fructose if sucrose is broken down with 1:1 ratio glucose to fructose

ah that sucks...
so it lacks cysteine and tryptophan which is good but then it also lacks BCAA... those are important..
i think whey protein may be the best protein source then?



why would ingesting multple ounces gelatin cause nutrient deficiencies do you mean if we avoid meat/milk protein sources? or does the gelatin itself cause nutrient deficiencies



so youre saying the gelatin powders like great lakes gelatin causes serious histamine issues? what causes the histamine issues i thought gelatin is low in histidine

Gelatine does contain some BCAA but you dont need them you make them. They are just predigested protein(amino acids). Also it is important to separate just organic gelatin which sure is a powder from all the hydrolyzed versions that dissolve in cold water. I get horrible issues like extreme vomiting from the hydrolyzed ones like great lakes. The refining to make just plain gelatin is not THAT much stronger then the refining you do when making broth. Its more but not on a crazy level. It has gone through evaporation. And on the deficiency part youbhabe to eat a lot like at least a couple of hundred grams a day or eat just candy for the rest of your calories to be deficient. Just get carbs with your gelly. And about the being small (mice) - you need methionin and tryptophan when hrowing but like all growth factors you dont want things growing after you stopped growing... same with HGH. Theres a reason why bodybuilders use both and dont get healthy by it. Also it is worth mentionong that peat recomeds "restriction" not elimination of these amino acids. So the point isnt so much just to get glycine without methionine and trypto but also the added benefit that glycine displaces them as they compete for transport so you basically bloch their absorption when eating glycine at the same time. So glycine is a doubleedged swords where both edges are facimg the enemy :).

 

[CLASH]

hey mate im confused maybe im not understanding the terminology
isnt sucrose = half glucose half fructose

if theres 5g less fructose than sucrose why is there an excess of fructose if sucrose is broken down with 1:1 ratio glucose to fructose

ah that sucks...
so it lacks cysteine and tryptophan which is good but then it also lacks BCAA... those are important..
i think whey protein may be the best protein source then?



why would ingesting multple ounces gelatin cause nutrient deficiencies do you mean if we avoid meat/milk protein sources? or does the gelatin itself cause nutrient deficiencies



so youre saying the gelatin powders like great lakes gelatin causes serious histamine issues? what causes the histamine issues i thought gelatin is low in histidine

There is more sucrose than fructose, yes. However there is also free glucose and fructose as well. There is about twice as much free fructose than there is glucose. This alters the ratio of glucose to fructose.

When the sucrose is broken down its 1:1 glucose to fructose. When you add the free glucose and free fructose, since there is more free fructose than free glucose, there winds up being an excess of total fructose, compared to total glucose.

Also as I mentioned the mango has FODMAPS. Overall this doesn't mean its a bad fruit, just that some people may have issues with it.


Yes collagen/ gelatin lacks quite a bit of certain amino acids. While it is completely deficient in cysteine and tryptophan, it lacks, meaning it is a poor source of BCAA's and methionine overall. This makes it a poor primary protein source.

Its not that one protein source is better than another, its that each protein source can be used for different effects. If you want enhanced muscle protein synthesis, with a a quick insulin spike after a workout, whey is a good option. If you want to minimize overall tryptophan and cysteine content, while providing glycine to balance methionine from other proteins, collagen/ gelatin is a great option. On the flip side tho, collagen has an imbalanced arginine to lysine ratio, favoring arginine. This can cause some issues for people. Also, sometimes people react poorly to collagen/ gelatin for other reasons GI related and what not.

 

[Eberhardt]

There is more sucrose than fructose, yes. However there is also free glucose and fructose as well. There is about twice as much free fructose than there is glucose. This alters the ratio of glucose to fructose.

When the sucrose is broken down its 1:1 glucose to fructose. When you add the free glucose and free fructose, since there is more free fructose than free glucose, there winds up being an excess of total fructose, compared to total glucose.

Also as I mentioned the mango has FODMAPS. Overall this doesn't mean its a bad fruit, just that some people may have issues with it.


Yes collagen/ gelatin lacks quite a bit of certain amino acids. While it is completely deficient in cysteine and tryptophan, it lacks, meaning it is a poor source of BCAA's and methionine overall. This makes it a poor primary protein source.

Its not that one protein source is better than another, its that each protein source can be used for different effects. If you want enhanced muscle protein synthesis, with a a quick insulin spike after a workout, whey is a good option. If you want to minimize overall tryptophan and cysteine content, while providing glycine to balance methionine from other proteins, collagen/ gelatin is a great option. On the flip side tho, collagen has an imbalanced arginine to lysine ratio, favoring arginine. This can cause some issues for people. Also, sometimes people react poorly to collagen/ gelatin for other reasons GI related and what not.

FODMAP is just fermentable oligo, mono and disaccarides so as far as I know that is exactly what you just described with the "free fructose/glucose" argument. It is not "something else". Its just a collective term for these sugars as they as the name says are fermentable and you thus can have a problem with that if you have poor digestion. otherwise I think you are right. still I dont see the BCAA point - sure they can be supplemented and has some functions, though they also have potential side effects (like any drug) but to eat from the perspective of adding them sounds weird as you are supposed to make them yourself?? Of course on point or another down the road you then end up discussing injectable peptides ... so not saying they are useless but to me it feels like saying that gelatin isnt a good source of ... aspirin? no, true, but is that a reasonable request? :)

 

[CLASH]

FODMAP is just fermentable oligo, mono and disaccarides so as far as I know that is exactly what you just described with the "free fructose/glucose" argument. It is not "something else". Its just a collective term for these sugars as they as the name says are fermentable and you thus can have a problem with that if you have poor digestion. otherwise I think you are right. still I dont see the BCAA point - sure they can be supplemented and has some functions, though they also have potential side effects (like any drug) but to eat from the perspective of adding them sounds weird as you are supposed to make them yourself?? Of course on point or another down the road you then end up discussing injectable peptides ... so not saying they are useless but to me it feels like saying that gelatin isnt a good source of ... aspirin? no, true, but is that a reasonable request? :)

Glucose is not technically a FODMAP, neither is fructose in certain amounts, or when in 1:1 ratio with glucose. FODMAP specifically relates to non-digestible and/or absorbable carbohydrates that can cause digestive issues even in normal people. For example fructooligosaccharides, inulin, galactooligosaccharides, melibiose, stacchyose, sugar alcohols, lactose for some people etc. are all FODMAPs and are indeed something different from glucose and fructose.

BCAAs refer to a specific group of amino acids: leucine, isoleucine, valine. They are essential amino acids, meaning they cannot be synthesized by the body and must be obtained by foods/ exogenous means. They have a host of important functions in the body, and while they can be supplemented, they are also found in foods. I wouldn't neccesarily call them a drug, especially in the food case. Gelatin is a poor source of BCAA compared to other protein sources like beef, dairy, fish, eggs, poultry. A diet of mainly gelatin as the source of protein can cause significant metabolic issues due to the insufficiency of multiple amino acids mentioned. I think this is why Ray has never recommended gelatin make up the majority of someones protein, however I cannot speak for him.

 

[Dr. B]

Gelatine does contain some BCAA but you dont need them you make them. They are just predigested protein(amino acids). Also it is important to separate just organic gelatin which sure is a powder from all the hydrolyzed versions that dissolve in cold water. I get horrible issues like extreme vomiting from the hydrolyzed ones like great lakes. The refining to make just plain gelatin is not THAT much stronger then the refining you do when making broth. Its more but not on a crazy level. It has gone through evaporation. And on the deficiency part youbhabe to eat a lot like at least a couple of hundred grams a day or eat just candy for the rest of your calories to be deficient. Just get carbs with your gelly. And about the being small (mice) - you need methionin and tryptophan when hrowing but like all growth factors you dont want things growing after you stopped growing... same with HGH. Theres a reason why bodybuilders use both and dont get healthy by it. Also it is worth mentionong that peat recomeds "restriction" not elimination of these amino acids. So the point isnt so much just to get glycine without methionine and trypto but also the added benefit that glycine displaces them as they compete for transport so you basically bloch their absorption when eating glycine at the same time. So glycine is a doubleedged swords where both edges are facimg the enemy :).

but can't you still be growing when older? like even gaining height or muscle mass, or growing the size of the organs which is usually desirable? so in many cases you want these amino acids?

Glucose is not technically a FODMAP, neither is fructose in certain amounts, or when in 1:1 ratio with glucose. FODMAP specifically relates to non-digestible and/or absorbable carbohydrates that can cause digestive issues even in normal people. For example fructooligosaccharides, inulin, galactooligosaccharides, melibiose, stacchyose, sugar alcohols, lactose for some people etc. are all FODMAPs and are indeed something different from glucose and fructose.

BCAAs refer to a specific group of amino acids: leucine, isoleucine, valine. They are essential amino acids, meaning they cannot be synthesized by the body and must be obtained by foods/ exogenous means. They have a host of important functions in the body, and while they can be supplemented, they are also found in foods. I wouldn't neccesarily call them a drug, especially in the food case. Gelatin is a poor source of BCAA compared to other protein sources like beef, dairy, fish, eggs, poultry. A diet of mainly gelatin as the source of protein can cause significant metabolic issues due to the insufficiency of multiple amino acids mentioned. I think this is why Ray has never recommended gelatin make up the majority of someones protein, however I cannot speak for him.

think Ray said only a few hundred mgs of tryptophan are needed, maybe the same for the others, so that means only like 30g protein from whey, beef, eggs, chicken etc... so you can get most from gelatin maybe?

 

[Eberhardt]

Glucose is not technically a FODMAP, neither is fructose in certain amounts, or when in 1:1 ratio with glucose. FODMAP specifically relates to non-digestible and/or absorbable carbohydrates that can cause digestive issues even in normal people. For example fructooligosaccharides, inulin, galactooligosaccharides, melibiose, stacchyose, sugar alcohols, lactose for some people etc. are all FODMAPs and are indeed something different from glucose and fructose.

BCAAs refer to a specific group of amino acids: leucine, isoleucine, valine. They are essential amino acids, meaning they cannot be synthesized by the body and must be obtained by foods/ exogenous means. They have a host of important functions in the body, and while they can be supplemented, they are also found in foods. I wouldn't neccesarily call them a drug, especially in the food case. Gelatin is a poor source of BCAA compared to other protein sources like beef, dairy, fish, eggs, poultry. A diet of mainly gelatin as the source of protein can cause significant metabolic issues due to the insufficiency of multiple amino acids mentioned. I think this is why Ray has never recommended gelatin make up the majority of someones protein, however I cannot speak for him.

Well I sort of disagree. I dont think they necessarily cause problems - it is true that they are more indigestible but it is not true that they are not fructose of glucose. Like fructooligosaccaraides /inulin - they are fructose polymers. In a way they thus have some resemblance to the sugar vs starch debate. SInce starch is double bonded but sugar is not. I am not saying it is the same but Peat aslo says that starch is not really a problem IF you have good digestion and a proper mucul lining stopping persorption. So I beg to differ that they are very different and necessarily cause problems. It is true though that they have a higher potensiality for indigestion then "regular" fructose. All natural food sources will have them though just to a larger or smaller degree.

On the BCAA I was a little bit of - its just that they usually come in predigested form. You are right that they are these three amino acids, my answer ws schewed by thinking of the supplement form, but its not true that they are not present in Gelatine;

They are somewhat low. But they are also exitatory and BCAA suplements have been suggested as contributing to ALS Not saying to avoid them though! just not really seeing the fuzz about it not being in Gelatin (that much) It is also not that much lower then most of the other amino acids. So I sort of think it IS unfair to discard Gelatin on that account

 

[Eberhardt]

but can't you still be growing when older? like even gaining height or muscle mass, or growing the size of the organs which is usually desirable? so in many cases you want these amino acids?

You can the question is more " do you want to" . I think gaining height as and adult in normally not healthy. Muscle mass sure. but not to the amount that you need to add tryptophan to gain more. The growth effect is "blind" - it makes anything grow. And you wont be living on a tryptophan free diet even if I dont really know if it would harm you (almost impossible to do though) . Growing the size of the organs is definatly not healthy - if you havent had a procedure that removed half your liver f.ex. It is also worth remembering that the average supercentarian is 160 cm and 60 kilos. To much growth consistently reduces life-span. Peat speculates that is partly due to the indiferenciated effect of growth factors since it is an in intraspiecies (within) phenomenon. But in practice you want some you just dont want too much, and one suggested way to avoid a dominance of them is to add gelatin (not use it as you only protein source even if you could probably get by on it, provided you got your nutrients elsewhere) - Its intersting that Paul Anderson, one of the strongest people that ever lived (US olympic weightlifting team in the 50s) ate about a half kilo of it a day.

 

[CLASH]

but can't you still be growing when older? like even gaining height or muscle mass, or growing the size of the organs which is usually desirable? so in many cases you want these amino acids?



think Ray said only a few hundred mgs of tryptophan are needed, maybe the same for the others, so that means only like 30g protein from whey, beef, eggs, chicken etc... so you can get most from gelatin maybe?

While individual amino acid amounts to prevent deficiency have been determined, that doesn't preclude more of an amino acid from producing an optimal effect. In my opinion I would not make gelatin the primary protein source for all of the reasons I have discussed here, as well as some of the other reasons suggested by other members i.e. nutrient deficiencies.

I'd recommend you take a look at the effects of protein/ amino acid restriction on the animals in these longevity studies for more information on what this actually looks like in real life.

 

[CLASH]

Well I sort of disagree. I dont think they necessarily cause problems - it is true that they are more indigestible but it is not true that they are not fructose of glucose. Like fructooligosaccaraides /inulin - they are fructose polymers. In a way they thus have some resemblance to the sugar vs starch debate. SInce starch is double bonded but sugar is not. I am not saying it is the same but Peat aslo says that starch is not really a problem IF you have good digestion and a proper mucul lining stopping persorption. So I beg to differ that they are very different and necessarily cause problems. It is true though that they have a higher potensiality for indigestion then "regular" fructose. All natural food sources will have them though just to a larger or smaller degree.

On the BCAA I was a little bit of - its just that they usually come in predigested form. You are right that they are these three amino acids, my answer ws schewed by thinking of the supplement form, but its not true that they are not present in Gelatine;

View attachment 26609



They are somewhat low. But they are also exitatory and BCAA suplements have been suggested as contributing to ALS Not saying to avoid them though! just not really seeing the fuzz about it not being in Gelatin (that much) It is also not that much lower then most of the other amino acids. So I sort of think it IS unfair to discard Gelatin on that account

My initial statement in this thread:

FODMAP specifically relates to non-digestible and/or absorbable carbohydrates that can cause digestive issues even in normal people.

While not everyone reacts negatively to every FODMAP, FODMAPs can definitively cause issues in people. A polymer of glucose, fructose, galactose, or any other monosaccharide is not the same as the individual monosaccharide, especially when the individual consuming these polymerized carbohydrates does not have the enzymes to digest and absorb these polymerized carbohydrates. The basis of the FODMAP idea was built around this understanding. While an extreme example, this is why humans dont eat wood, which is largely cellulose, with cellulose being chains of glucose. Despite a large portion of wood being comprised at its base unit as glucose, we cannot digest the wood. This makes Wood a very different compound, from a digestive perspective, than glucose.

The FODMAP argument is not directly comparable to the starch vs. sugar debate. Both starch and sugar are digestible by most humans on this planet, barring rare genetic disorders. Most FODMAPs on the other hand, are not digested by humans, or at the minimum a large proportion of humans have a hard time digesting many of them. Comparing the starch vs. sugar debate to the FODMAP situation obfuscates the core of each situation, even though they have some similarities.

By the way, for clarity, starch is not double bonded, it is multiple glucose molecules polymerized via a single glycosidic linkages. Sugar, which I'm assuming you mean sucrose, is 1 molecule of glucose bonded via a single glycosidic linkage to a 1 molecule of fructose.

Also the fact that FODMAPS have a higher chance of indigestion implies that they can in fact cause issues in people, and fructose is considered a FODMAP by itself, whereas glucose is not.


My previous statement in this thread on BCAA's in gelatin:

Yes collagen/ gelatin lacks quite a bit of certain amino acids. While it is completely deficient in cysteine and tryptophan, it lacks, meaning it is a poor source of BCAA's and methionine overall. This makes it a poor primary protein source.

High levels of BCAA in the CSF and CNS from disordered metabolism, may not have anything to do directly with intake of BCAAs (which again are absolutely essential for human life) from food sources like eggs, beef, poultry, seafood, and dairy. The fuzz about it not being in gelatin is that if you wish to make gelatin a main protein source, you'd be possibly depleting yourself of BCAA's, methionine, cysteine, and tryptophan; which, while some of them have some negative effects on longevity, are essential amino acids with a host of useful effects and properties. Gelatin is in fact lower than the other protein sources I mentioned in the amino acids I have been discussing, that is undeniable. This is the reason why Peat has recommended it, as a portion of the diet. For example here is 100g of protein of sirloin beef for comparison:

There is 4x the leucine. Almost 3x the valine. Almost 5x the isoleucine. 1.2g more methionine. 1.2g more tryptophan. 1.1g more cysteine.

Overall, this indicates that the beef is somewhat higher in tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine (with tryptophan and cysteine being absent in gelatin); but it is much higher in the branch chain amino acids. When you put this in the context of optimal leucine content per meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis (If I remember correctly around 2-3g), it makes more sense to eat 30g of protein from beef than more then 100g of protein from gelatin. What makes sense, from my perspective, with gelatin is to add 10g or so of gelatin to the beef meal to provide glycine to balance the methionine.

I want to point out here as well, I never discounted gelatin, or made statements to discount it. I said I dont think it is a good idea to make the main protein source for a few reasons, including reasons outside of the BCAA argument. These are a few of my specific statements in this thread on the use of gelatin as a protein source specifically in regards to amino acid contents:

Its not that one protein source is better than another, its that each protein source can be used for different effects. If you want enhanced muscle protein synthesis, with a a quick insulin spike after a workout, whey is a good option. If you want to minimize overall tryptophan and cysteine content, while providing glycine to balance methionine from other proteins, collagen/ gelatin is a great option. On the flip side tho, collagen has an imbalanced arginine to lysine ratio, favoring arginine. This can cause some issues for people. Also, sometimes people react poorly to collagen/ gelatin for other reasons GI related and what not.

 

[Eberhardt]

My initial statement in this thread:


While not everyone reacts negatively to every FODMAP, FODMAPs can definitively cause issues in people. A polymer of glucose, fructose, galactose, or any other monosaccharide is not the same as the individual monosaccharide, especially when the individual consuming these polymerized carbohydrates does not have the enzymes to digest and absorb these polymerized carbohydrates. The basis of the FODMAP idea was built around this understanding. While an extreme example, this is why humans dont eat wood, which is largely cellulose, with cellulose being chains of glucose. Despite a large portion of wood being comprised at its base unit as glucose, we cannot digest the wood. This makes Wood a very different compound, from a digestive perspective, than glucose.

The FODMAP argument is not directly comparable to the starch vs. sugar debate. Both starch and sugar are digestible by most humans on this planet, barring rare genetic disorders. Most FODMAPs on the other hand, are not digested by humans, or at the minimum a large proportion of humans have a hard time digesting many of them. Comparing the starch vs. sugar debate to the FODMAP situation obfuscates the core of each situation, even though they have some similarities.

By the way, for clarity, starch is not double bonded, it is multiple glucose molecules polymerized via a single glycosidic linkages. Sugar, which I'm assuming you mean sucrose, is 1 molecule of glucose bonded via a single glycosidic linkage to a 1 molecule of fructose.

Also the fact that FODMAPS have a higher chance of indigestion implies that they can in fact cause issues in people, and fructose is considered a FODMAP by itself, whereas glucose is not.


My previous statement in this thread on BCAA's in gelatin:


High levels of BCAA in the CSF and CNS from disordered metabolism, may not have anything to do directly with intake of BCAAs (which again are absolutely essential for human life) from food sources like eggs, beef, poultry, seafood, and dairy. The fuzz about it not being in gelatin is that if you wish to make gelatin a main protein source, you'd be possibly depleting yourself of BCAA's, methionine, cysteine, and tryptophan; which, while some of them have some negative effects on longevity, are essential amino acids with a host of useful effects and properties. Gelatin is in fact lower than the other protein sources I mentioned in the amino acids I have been discussing, that is undeniable. This is the reason why Peat has recommended it, as a portion of the diet. For example here is 100g of protein of sirloin beef for comparison:

View attachment 26613

There is 4x the leucine. Almost 3x the valine. Almost 5x the isoleucine. 1.2g more methionine. 1.2g more tryptophan. 1.1g more cysteine.

Overall, this indicates that the beef is somewhat higher in tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine (with tryptophan and cysteine being absent in gelatin); but it is much higher in the branch chain amino acids. When you put this in the context of optimal leucine content per meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis (If I remember correctly around 2-3g), it makes more sense to eat 30g of protein from beef than more then 100g of protein from gelatin. What makes sense, from my perspective, with gelatin is to add 10g or so of gelatin to the beef meal to provide glycine to balance the methionine.

I want to point out here as well, I never discounted gelatin, or made statements to discount it. I said I dont think it is a good idea to make the main protein source for a few reasons, including reasons outside of the BCAA argument. These are a few of my specific statements in this thread on the use of gelatin as a protein source specifically in regards to amino acid contents:

I dont think we disagree that much. I agree anyway with the practical conclusion to adding about 10g of gelatine to the beef. I am not sure how to answer except that I dont necessarily agree with you discounting and conclusions regarding the argumens you provided but I am not claiming that you are factually wrong. I am aslo a bit more sloppy with my wording sometimes but I still stand by my main points. F.ex I said clearly that it was NOT taken to be an exact analogy to sugar/starch, and no I did not mean glucose. I adhered basically to Peats way of talking about it assuming it would come around as inteneded. Might be my bad though. I do find the details quite interesting though, and I take issue with some of the seemingly more precise wording that you choose, but I still think it is problematic as I feel it takes away the general perception making the differences and issues with the substances seem more pronounced then they might be in practice (No not claiming people arent reacting to fodmaps) . F.ex "normal" people, what is that? my point here is though mainly to say I dont intend to make a fuzz about it but that I agree more with the conclusion then the line of argument and find it not so problematic to discuss some of the more pointed statements that was done during the thread even if it was not worded that way in the beginning. I agree aslo of course with your listing of the proportions which is taken from the picture I just dont think they make a very convincing argument. SOrry for repeating myself its late here- hope you are making this sound more friendly then it might. I am more pragmatical also and so I stop now with a: pragmatically I agree with your recomendations, as I f.ex would as stated NOT recomend using gelatine as sole protein source even if I think the reasons is a little bit different then your point of view. Peace, out

 

[CLASH]

I dont think we disagree that much. I agree anyway with the practical conclusion to adding about 10g of gelatine to the beef. I am not sure how to answer except that I dont necessarily agree with you discounting and conclusions regarding the argumens you provided but I am not claiming that you are factually wrong. I am aslo a bit more sloppy with my wording sometimes but I still stand by my main points. F.ex I said clearly that it was NOT taken to be an exact analogy to sugar/starch, and no I did not mean glucose. I adhered basically to Peats way of talking about it assuming it would come around as inteneded. Might be my bad though. I do find the details quite interesting though, and I take issue with some of the seemingly more precise wording that you choose, but I still think it is problematic as I feel it takes away the general perception making the differences and issues with the substances seem more pronounced then they might be in practice (No not claiming people arent reacting to fodmaps) . F.ex "normal" people, what is that? my point here is though mainly to say I dont intend to make a fuzz about it but that I agree more with the conclusion then the line of argument and find it not so problematic to discuss some of the more pointed statements that was done during the thread even if it was not worded that way in the beginning. I agree aslo of course with your listing of the proportions which is taken from the picture I just dont think they make a very convincing argument. SOrry for repeating myself its late here- hope you are making this sound more friendly then it might. I am more pragmatical also and so I stop now with a: pragmatically I agree with your recomendations, as I f.ex would as stated NOT recomend using gelatine as sole protein source even if I think the reasons is a little bit different then your point of view. Peace, out

It didn't come off unfriendly at all. I'm completely fine with the disagreement and hashing things out, I actually enjoy it because it forces me to be precise with my language, and to have my mechanisms and thought process well organized mentally.

As for my precise wording, that is done on purpose. I feel that Peat's "general perception" approach has lead many people astray, people that I work with on a regular basis, and also myself at one point. I dont think this is necessarily because the approach is general, but because many people dont have the full context with which to understand Peat's broad approach. I am trying to provide some of that context for them.

For example, in my experience, with people who are coming off carnivore, have autoimmune issues, coming off keto, or are generally unwell, these precise differences and nuances can be extremely valuable in understanding and applying to get these individuals back on the right track. So, I state things precisely and talk about the nuances frankly so people can perhaps get an idea of some of the underlying causes for some of their current issues. For a more specific example I am working with multiple people with autoimmune diseases at the moment, including Ulcerative colitis, and Crohn's disease. An in depth, precise understanding of FODMAPs and their mechanisms make an absolute world of a difference for these people; where knowing that certain fruits like mangos can contain FODMAPs and an imbalanced glucose: fructose ratio, that can be flaring their digestive issues. Or as another example with my carnivore clients, where honey (which has been mentioned by Dr. Saladino) has some of these same problematic components that can cause digestive issues, especially when trying to reintroduce carbohydrates after eating minimal amounts of them for years.

As for reasoning for precise statements around gelatin and BCAA's an example would be a cachexic client. Its important to know the amounts of leucine needed in a meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis so that I can program that amount in each meal, when constructing a dietary structure for said client. The thing is, this dietary structure has to be not only physiologically based, but it also has to be reasonable to integrate into the lifestyle. Having an individual take 100g of gelatin at each meal to reach a leucine target is unreasonable, unnecessary, and definitively problematic. There is a context for gelatin, and in my experience and opinion it should be used appropriately within its context, depending on the situation. I am attempting to provide reasonable/ useful rationale's and information for people on the context, and situations with which to use gelatin; specifically because I was asked. That is all, albeit a little long winded on my end..

 

[Eberhardt]

It didn't come off unfriendly at all. I'm completely fine with the disagreement and hashing things out, I actually enjoy it because it forces me to be precise with my language, and to have my mechanisms and thought process well organized mentally.

As for my precise wording, that is done on purpose. I feel that Peat's "general perception" approach has lead many people astray, people that I work with on a regular basis, and also myself at one point. I dont think this is necessarily because the approach is general, but because many people dont have the full context with which to understand Peat's broad approach. I am trying to provide some of that context for them.

For example, in my experience, with people who are coming off carnivore, have autoimmune issues, coming off keto, or are generally unwell, these precise differences and nuances can be extremely valuable in understanding and applying to get these individuals back on the right track. So, I state things precisely and talk about the nuances frankly so people can perhaps get an idea of some of the underlying causes for some of their current issues. For a more specific example I am working with multiple people with autoimmune diseases at the moment, including Ulcerative colitis, and Crohn's disease. An in depth, precise understanding of FODMAPs and their mechanisms make an absolute world of a difference for these people; where knowing that certain fruits like mangos can contain FODMAPs and an imbalanced glucose: fructose ratio, that can be flaring their digestive issues. Or as another example with my carnivore clients, where honey (which has been mentioned by Dr. Saladino) has some of these same problematic components that can cause digestive issues, especially when trying to reintroduce carbohydrates after eating minimal amounts of them for years.

As for reasoning for precise statements around gelatin and BCAA's an example would be a cachexic client. Its important to know the amounts of leucine needed in a meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis so that I can program that amount in each meal, when constructing a dietary structure for said client. The thing is, this dietary structure has to be not only physiologically based, but it also has to be reasonable to integrate into the lifestyle. Having an individual take 100g of gelatin at each meal to reach a leucine target is unreasonable, unnecessary, and definitively problematic. There is a context for gelatin, and in my experience and opinion it should be used appropriately within its context, depending on the situation. I am attempting to provide reasonable/ useful rationale's and information for people on the context, and situations with which to use gelatin; specifically because I was asked. That is all, albeit a little long winded on my end..

That's good to hear!! I am very happy with the contents of your last reply and I can understand this attitude. Personally I dont work in the health service so I am coming at it from my own point of view where I sometimes feel that people on the forum are loosing track of the big picture and getting misled by details, thats partly why I write the way I do :) I once (10years +) was myself struggling to reintroduce fruit after low-carb. I did it by starting with white rice and potatoes (and at the time a little bit of bread) - took me years to recover even if it was a short stint I ketoed. I am somewhat curious to what the context of your patientcare is - you are at least obviously free to implement peatish things? :) anyways I agree with all that you said and once again appreciated the content

 

[X3CyO]

Fructose itself is not a poison for the liver. The majority is converted to glucose, glycogen, and lactate with a marginal amount being converted to fat through DNL.

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physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Taking in fructose from a soda, or refined sucrose/ HFCS source is in fact very different from getting it from fruit juice. This has been proven directly by research.

Review of 100% Fruit Juice and Chronic Health Conditions: Implications for Sugar-Sweetened Beverage Policy

Abstract. Whether or not drinking 100% fruit juice causes poor health is controversial. Although 100% fruit juice may contain as much sugar as regular soda, it

academic.oup.com

Impact of 100% Fruit Juice Consumption on Diet and Weight Status of Children: An Evidence-based Review - PubMed

Consumption of 100% fruit juice remains controversial for its potential adverse impact on weight and displacement of essential foods in the diets of children. A systematic review of the literature published from 1995-2013 was conducted using the PubMed database to evaluate associations between...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effect of pomegranate juice on insulin secretion and sensitivity in patients with obesity - PubMed

Pomegranate juice administration for 1 month did not modify insulin secretion and sensitivity in patients with obesity; however, the natural evolution to increased weight and adiposity was halted.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Fruit consistently proves protective against high fat, high sugar feeding studies despite the sugar content. Even mangoes do well in studies, despite having a high fructose content.

Physiological and molecular study on the anti-obesity effects of pineapple (Ananas comosus) juice in male Wistar rat - PubMed

The present study was performed to assess anti-obesity effects of raw pineapple juice in high fat diet (HFD)-induced fatness. Based on food type, rats were divided into normal diet and HFD groups. When animals of HFD group become obese, they were given pineapple juice along with either HFD or...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mango modulates body fat and plasma glucose and lipids in mice fed a high-fat diet | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

Mango modulates body fat and plasma glucose and lipids in mice fed a high-fat diet - Volume 106 Issue 10

www.cambridge.org

High fructose corn syrup is only 55% fructose, with 45% glucose. Sucrose is 50%/50% so not too much difference.

The liver glycogen storage is somewhat limited, but fructose isn't only turned into glycogen its turned into lactate and glucose and sent to the bodies cells and tissues.

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Drinking large amounts of fruit juice usually only causes issues if the juice has a high FODMAP content, a high fructose to glucose ratio leading to fructose malabsorption, and/ or you have SIBO. Fructose requires glucose to be absorbed via a co-transport mechanism in the intestine.

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You linked an in vitro study where they exposed to macrophages to fructose and LPS. In vivo this would be unlikely to occur since fructose is shuttled to the liver and converted to glucose, lactate, glycogen and fatty acids. Plus, if your fructose consumption is from fruit, the polyphenols, vitamins, and minerals would protect against any endotoxemia and modulate carbohydrate metabolism.

Your last statement is a blanket statement that mischaracterizes the immune system at best.

The beginning of this thread is a mess. I'm surprised to see name-calling and blind ideology without any regard to explaining mechanisms, and general disregard for other people's experiences.

Great Post Clash. Posts like this are what keep me here.

 

[Vileplume]

It didn't come off unfriendly at all. I'm completely fine with the disagreement and hashing things out, I actually enjoy it because it forces me to be precise with my language, and to have my mechanisms and thought process well organized mentally.

As for my precise wording, that is done on purpose. I feel that Peat's "general perception" approach has lead many people astray, people that I work with on a regular basis, and also myself at one point. I dont think this is necessarily because the approach is general, but because many people dont have the full context with which to understand Peat's broad approach. I am trying to provide some of that context for them.

For example, in my experience, with people who are coming off carnivore, have autoimmune issues, coming off keto, or are generally unwell, these precise differences and nuances can be extremely valuable in understanding and applying to get these individuals back on the right track. So, I state things precisely and talk about the nuances frankly so people can perhaps get an idea of some of the underlying causes for some of their current issues. For a more specific example I am working with multiple people with autoimmune diseases at the moment, including Ulcerative colitis, and Crohn's disease. An in depth, precise understanding of FODMAPs and their mechanisms make an absolute world of a difference for these people; where knowing that certain fruits like mangos can contain FODMAPs and an imbalanced glucose: fructose ratio, that can be flaring their digestive issues. Or as another example with my carnivore clients, where honey (which has been mentioned by Dr. Saladino) has some of these same problematic components that can cause digestive issues, especially when trying to reintroduce carbohydrates after eating minimal amounts of them for years.

As for reasoning for precise statements around gelatin and BCAA's an example would be a cachexic client. Its important to know the amounts of leucine needed in a meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis so that I can program that amount in each meal, when constructing a dietary structure for said client. The thing is, this dietary structure has to be not only physiologically based, but it also has to be reasonable to integrate into the lifestyle. Having an individual take 100g of gelatin at each meal to reach a leucine target is unreasonable, unnecessary, and definitively problematic. There is a context for gelatin, and in my experience and opinion it should be used appropriately within its context, depending on the situation. I am attempting to provide reasonable/ useful rationale's and information for people on the context, and situations with which to use gelatin; specifically because I was asked. That is all, albeit a little long winded on my end..

Hey CLASH, do you find that your clients who struggle with the fodmaps in honey do better with maple syrup, which is lower in fodmaps?

I’ve seen you mention in some of your other posts that lots of granulated white sugar can cause intestinal bacteria issues over time, and I’m pretty sure that happened to me. It would be helpful to have a go-to concentrated sugar source when no easily digestible fruits are available.

 

[Dr. B]

Hey CLASH, do you find that your clients who struggle with the fodmaps in honey do better with maple syrup, which is lower in fodmaps?

I’ve seen you mention in some of your other posts that lots of granulated white sugar can cause intestinal bacteria issues over time, and I’m pretty sure that happened to me. It would be helpful to have a go-to concentrated sugar source when no easily digestible fruits are available.

What about organic raw honey? Orange juice, dates, pomegranate juice, coconut water, figs?

 

[Vileplume]

What about organic raw honey? Orange juice, dates, pomegranate juice, coconut water, figs?

Organic raw honey makes me incredibly bloated. Dates do too. Bottled pomegranate juice (Pom brand) does too. I’ve never tried figs but I have a strong feeling they would make me bloated. These all feel very strong got like bacterial issues. I think my intestinal bacteria just chow down on these foods, and they digest very slowly with a lot of gas and discomfort. They’re also all high in fodmaps, so I think that’s a big cause.

Coconut water digests really well, but it drops my temperature a lot and gives me frequent urination—but it feels like a different cause than the above.

Whole oranges make me bloated and uncomfortable, but ripe orange juice digests very well. It’s low in fodmaps.

 

[Dr. B]

Organic raw honey makes me incredibly bloated. Dates do too. Bottled pomegranate juice (Pom brand) does too. I’ve never tried figs but I have a strong feeling they would make me bloated. These all feel very strong got like bacterial issues. I think my intestinal bacteria just chow down on these foods, and they digest very slowly with a lot of gas and discomfort. They’re also all high in fodmaps, so I think that’s a big cause.

Coconut water digests really well, but it drops my temperature a lot and gives me frequent urination—but it feels like a different cause than the above.

Whole oranges make me bloated and uncomfortable, but ripe orange juice digests very well. It’s low in fodmaps.

Wow
POM juice is not organic and has toxic water in it. HAve yoi tried lakewood or an organic pomegranate juice brand. Organic dried dates, organic dried figs? Which brand if honey? Do you get bloated even from one or two dates or figs or spoons of honey? What about orgsnic bananna chips with organic coconut oil