Eating More Plant Protein Associated With Lower Risk Of Death

[redlight]

Eating more plant protein associated with lower risk of death | KurzweilAI

 

[Ahanu]

correlation study, isnt it?

 

[lvysaur]

Plant protein is high in glycine IIRC, and low in methionine. Animal protein is just a proxy for muscle meat, normal people don't regularly consume gelatin.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Plant protein is high in glycine IIRC, and low in methionine. Animal protein is just a proxy for muscle meat, normal people don't regularly consume gelatin.

When I've looked up the glycine to methionine ratios of foods, many cuts of muscle meat (like ground beef, chuck, ribeye) are all fairly high at 3:1. Potato and soy protein are around 2:1. Eggs and dairy, about 1:1, and I think chicken and many types of fish are in that area as well. Scallops are around 5:1, while gelatin is far and away the highest (outside of say, pure glycine powder) at 29:1.

 

[redlight]

Plant protein is high in glycine IIRC, and low in methionine. Animal protein is just a proxy for muscle meat, normal people don't regularly consume gelatin.

well said!

 

[Travis]

There's a good article talking about methionine and veganism.

McCarty, Mark F., Jorge Barroso-Aranda, and Francisco Contreras. "The low-methionine content of vegan diets may make methionine restriction feasible as a life extension strategy." Medical hypotheses 72.2 (2009): 125-128.

This is what I ate yesterday:

The methionine is low. The tryptophan is a bit high perhaps, but I find that excessive serotonin can be combated with just 1 milligram of natural melatonin.

And Fernstrom proved that the absolute tryptophan intake mattered little, and that the ratio of trytophan over the other large neutral amino acids was actually the best predictor of brain serotonin synthesis.

 

[snowboard111]

@Travis That's all you eat?

 

[Travis]

All I eat? It's 3,000 calories!

 

[Ritchie]

The tryptophan is a bit high perhaps, but I find that excessive serotonin can be combated with just 1 milligram of natural melatonin.

Where do you source the melatonin from? Do you find this more effective/safer than cyproheptadine? I was under the impression that Peat wasn't a fan of melatonin and classed it as a stress hormone of sorts (i could certainly be wrong about that though)...

 

[Dante]

There's a good article talking about methionine and veganism.

McCarty, Mark F., Jorge Barroso-Aranda, and Francisco Contreras. "The low-methionine content of vegan diets may make methionine restriction feasible as a life extension strategy." Medical hypotheses 72.2 (2009): 125-128.

This is what I ate yesterday:
View attachment 6299
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The methionine is low. The tryptophan is a bit high perhaps, but I find that excessive serotonin can be combated with just 1 milligram of natural melatonin.

And Fernstrom proved that the absolute tryptophan intake mattered little, and that the ratio of trytophan over the other large neutral amino acids was actually the best predictor of brain serotonin synthesis.

What about B12 ,Travis ? Taking sublingual for that ? BTW ,have you enquired about the tryptophan-niacin pathway? If I remember , 60 mg tryptophan can be used to make 1 mg niacin with proper cofactors.

 

[Travis]

I doesn't feel like a stress hormone. It made me feel very relaxed with just two milligrams, almost stoned. I was feeling extremely edgy before that, almost schizophrenic.

And it's made in the PM, before sleep. Light suppresses the formation of melatonin. It has an O-methyl group, so deficiencies in folate can decrease the production of this hormone, especially if you limit methionine (another methyl donor).

I'm exactly sure how much that has to do with serotonin and how much has to do with adrenochrome. Epinephrine released from the adrenals can become adrenochrome non-enzymatically through a ring-forming mechanism. Drs. Hoffer and Osmond explain this well.

I need to get a better feel about what serotonin does. I am reading about it right now.

 

[Travis]

What about B12 ,Travis ? Taking sublingual for that ? BTW ,have you enquired about the tryptophan-niacin pathway? If I remember , 60 mg tryptophan can be used to make 1 mg niacin with proper cofactors.

I have some B₁₂ in the cabinet that I take every month or so. I am not entirely convinced that I "need to". You know that I think the science is questionable on that, with it being produced by bacteria in the intestines. I still cannot believe that you need intrinsic factor—a molecule about 33 times heavier than B₁₂—to absorb it. Why would the body totally exclude a 1.3 kilodalton molecule yet permit said molecule attached to a 50 kDa molecule? Cobalamin only slightly bigger than heme.

And yes, I just read about the trytophan–niacin (you need an en-dash for that one Dante, not a hyphen) pathway a bit after reading about raised kyneurine levels in people given tryptophan. Is this what causes the sleepiness?

 

[Dante]

I have some B₁₂ in the cabinet that I take every month or so. I am not entirely convinced that I "need to". You know that I think the science is questionable on that, with it being produced by bacteria in the intestines. I still cannot believe that you need intrinsic factor—a molecule about 33 times heavier than B₁₂—to absorb it. Why would the body totally exclude a 1.3 kilodalton molecule yet permit said molecule attached to a 50 kDa molecule?

Regarding B12, just a hunch but I think it's the Cobalt ion(the way it's complexed and the valency maybe) is what makes b12 special. No other vitamin has got metal in it . You still need to have small amount of Cobalt in the diet if you believe we can absorb the bacterial Cobalt complex.
A doc once told me that SIBO (inhibiting the absorption) and poor liver health (major storage site) is what causes most people difficulty in holding on to B12 even after adequate intake.

 

[HDD]

Where do you source the melatonin from? Do you find this more effective/safer than cyproheptadine? I was under the impression that Peat wasn't a fan of melatonin and classed it as a stress hormone of sorts (i could certainly be wrong about that though)...

"Some of the current publicity that is used to promote the fact that melatonin is used to make you go to sleep, it happens to be also a thing that goes up during hibernation, and its function is to lower the body temperature, and remember the hospitalized patients -- the ones who had the lowest temperatures were the least likely to survive, because as the thyroid goes down and your body temperature falls, you lose a lot of your immune functions and tissue repair capacity. So lowering your body temperature does make you hibernate and it does make you sleep, but you don't want to use something out of context to force that.


The studies that have been used to advocate melatonin's possibly anti-aging effect were done on mice and rats, and it turns out that they are very opposite to human beings and pigs, because they work at night in general and sleep in the daytime, and so melatonin for them has exactly the opposite meaning that it does for people and pigs. And for example, in humans and rats, melatonin raises prolactin, but in humans, prolactin knocks out progesterone production and causes infertility and stress and osteoperosis for example."

 

[Ritchie]

"Some of the current publicity that is used to promote the fact that melatonin is used to make you go to sleep, it happens to be also a thing that goes up during hibernation, and its function is to lower the body temperature, and remember the hospitalized patients -- the ones who had the lowest temperatures were the least likely to survive, because as the thyroid goes down and your body temperature falls, you lose a lot of your immune functions and tissue repair capacity. So lowering your body temperature does make you hibernate and it does make you sleep, but you don't want to use something out of context to force that.


The studies that have been used to advocate melatonin's possibly anti-aging effect were done on mice and rats, and it turns out that they are very opposite to human beings and pigs, because they work at night in general and sleep in the daytime, and so melatonin for them has exactly the opposite meaning that it does for people and pigs. And for example, in humans and rats, melatonin raises prolactin, but in humans, prolactin knocks out progesterone production and causes infertility and stress and osteoperosis for example."

Yes, this is what I was remembering reading from Peat re melatonin, I think he has made other similar references to it being a hibernation hormone of sorts.. Where was this quote taken from, just for reference? @Travis, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Travis]

That's interesting, but it's produced by the pineal gland at night. But after taking some, i can see how very high doses could lead to hibernation.

Studies show that melatonin release begins to lower blood pressure in the afternoon, and that older people generally produce less.

It could be why many older people sleep less?

It is also lower in Alzheimer's Disease, but so are so many other things that it's hard to know what to make of this. No need to trumpet that horn too loud anyway, since aluminum has been convincingly shown time and again to be the prime suspect.

High doses might be a bad idea, but if you take about the same amount that your pineal makes it should be metabolized and eliminated in about the same time scale. This is of course complicated by the fact that pills are usually swallowed and melatonin—like serotonin—might have unusual effects on the digestive system.

Maybe it's better taken in some other way.

There is an interesting article called Sleep Drives Metabolic Clearance From the Adult Brain* which shows that the decrease in serotonin at night relaxes the interstitial spaces in the brain allowing CSF-influx and metabolite clearance. A high-serotonin state would prevent this and could lead to the accumulation of metals.

So higher aluminum levels in some brains could be the result of decreased clearance at night caused by high serotonin or low melatonin. Melatonin has actually even been shown in two separate experiments to chelate aluminum, like this:

You might expect it to help clear stray iron as well.

But yeah, I don't think that it's a great idea to take as a capsule. I might try it again at a smaller dose. It is actually found in small amounts in coffee:†

...with enough serotonin to counter it.

We are drinking serotonin with our coffee (but never let that stop you).

I probably use about 60 grams of coffee per day, so I would probably drink about ~500μg melatonin anyhow from coffee. My pills are only at 1000μg, and two of them did have an effect on me.

I has an O-methyl group that might have some relevance. This could be an underappreciated methyl donor, and something to consider for people interested in methylation.¶

†Ramakrishna, Akula, et al. "Melatonin and serotonin profiles in beans of Coffea species." Journal of pineal research 52.4 (2012): 470-476.
*Xie, Lulu, et al. "Sleep drives metabolite clearance from the adult brain." science 342.6156 (2013): 373-377.
¶Fournier, Isabelle, et al. "Folate deficiency alters melatonin secretion in rats." The Journal of nutrition 132.9 (2002): 2781-2784.

 

[Elron]

"Adequate vitamin E is extremely important. There are several prescription drugs that protect against serotonin excess, but thyroid and gelatin (or glycine, as in magnesium glycinate) are protective against the serotonin and melatonin toxicities. "

ray peat isn't a fan of melatonin.

 

[HDD]

Yes, this is what I was remembering reading from Peat re melatonin, I think he has made other similar references to it being a hibernation hormone of sorts.. Where was this quote taken from, just for reference? @Travis, what are your thoughts on this?

The quote is from an interview transcript I had saved without the source.

Here are some more quotes I had saved from Ray Peat and forum members:

Haidut-
"Ray has repeatedly warned against the exogenous supplementation with melatonin and has said that it is almost as dangerous as serotonin (of which melatonin is a metabolite). One of the main benefits of red light is that it sharply decreases melatonin synthesis, sometimes by as much as 90%. I don't know if red light also decreases serotonin, but at least it will prevent its increases due to the stress responses induced by darkness. One more confirmation of the darkness-stress mechanism."

Brain serotonin concentration: elevation following intraperitoneal administration of melatonin. - PubMed - NCBI

"...The intraperitoneal administration of melatonin to rats caused an increase in brain serotonin concentration, especially in the midbrain. This effect could be demonstrated within 20 minutes of melatonin administration and was not associated with changes in norepinephrine concentration."
Melatonin elevates brain serotonin

I don't have the source for these two quotes-
"I know Ray advises against melatonin, as he predicts that it shrinks the sex organs."

"I remember him saying in an interview that >1 mg is probably okay."


"So when your thyroid is low, the melatonin is low, when your thyroid is high, the melatonin is high, in a logical adaptation -- because it is an antioxidant.

... So if the melatonin rises in proportion to your thyroid, it doesn't matter that it is having these pro-estrogen, anti-progesterone effects, because the thyroid is doing exactly the opposite to those hormones and is taking care of the situation, because thyroid gets rid of the excess estrogen while...being totally responsible for producing progesterone. But if you take melatonin out of context, as he did in the pig study, you're going to get an exactly anti-thyroid effect, deranging those hormones in the direction of stress and aging." The Thyroid, 1996 Gary Null radio

 

[Ritchie]

It could be why many older people sleep less?

Yes, and perhaps this is also related to elevated serotonin levels as people get older?

There is an interesting article called Sleep Drives Metabolic Clearance From the Adult Brain* which shows that the decrease in serotonin at night relaxes the interstitial spaces in the brain allowing CSF-influx and metabolite clearance. A high-serotonin state would prevent this and could lead to the accumulation of metals.

Very interesting. Another reason to work toward lower serotonin, particularly at night and while sleeping.

"Adequate vitamin E is extremely important. There are several prescription drugs that protect against serotonin excess, but thyroid and gelatin (or glycine, as in magnesium glycinate) are protective against the serotonin and melatonin toxicities. "

ray peat isn't a fan of melatonin.

Yeah I didn't think so, thanks for the quote.. @Travis what do you think of cyproheptadine as a serotonin lowering tool? I think it is probably quite a safe and effective way to protect against excess serotonin, especially at night in reference to the article you quoted above, among other reasons...

 

[Ritchie]

Haidut-
"Ray has repeatedly warned against the exogenous supplementation with melatonin and has said that it is almost as dangerous as serotonin (of which melatonin is a metabolite). One of the main benefits of red light is that it sharply decreases melatonin synthesis, sometimes by as much as 90%. I don't know if red light also decreases serotonin, but at least it will prevent its increases due to the stress responses induced by darkness. One more confirmation of the darkness-stress mechanism."

Brain serotonin concentration: elevation following intraperitoneal administration of melatonin. - PubMed - NCBI

"...The intraperitoneal administration of melatonin to rats caused an increase in brain serotonin concentration, especially in the midbrain. This effect could be demonstrated within 20 minutes of melatonin administration and was not associated with changes in norepinephrine concentration."
Melatonin elevates brain serotonin

Yeah if this is the case then it doesn't sound like a good idea to supplement melatonin exogenously...

"So when your thyroid is low, the melatonin is low, when your thyroid is high, the melatonin is high, in a logical adaptation -- because it is an antioxidant.

... So if the melatonin rises in proportion to your thyroid, it doesn't matter that it is having these pro-estrogen, anti-progesterone effects, because the thyroid is doing exactly the opposite to those hormones and is taking care of the situation, because thyroid gets rid of the excess estrogen while...being totally responsible for producing progesterone. But if you take melatonin out of context, as he did in the pig study, you're going to get an exactly anti-thyroid effect, deranging those hormones in the direction of stress and aging." The Thyroid, 1996 Gary Null radio

This quote is a little confusing in its logic, although I guess what he is saying is that when it comes to melatonin it will all balance out in the mix, as long as you don't mess with it exogenously by supplementing extra and your thyroid is working well..