The 'Japanese Paradox'

[Lucenzo01]

Smoking is healthy. There is no paradox.

 

[Philjay]

Yes. We need to look into caffeine because both coffee and tea have this, and both coffee and tea are protective against cancer of the prostate. It would be quite embarrassing to everybody if it were found that it is caffeine alone which is responsible for these effects (lol).

Wouldnt that be amazing ? Or shocking...

 

[Travis]

Smoking is healthy. There is no paradox.

Tell that to forum user @GAF, who is framing smokers as belonging to a 'death cult.' I don't think this is an entirely equitable depiction, and even some centenarians have been known to smoke like veritable chimneys.

It is interesting to ponder why the anti‐smoking campaign had such wheels, backing, clout, intertia, ect... You'd think if there were really powerful people creating giant philanthropic campaigns we'd have better anti‐soda and junk food posters in schools, and the lack of vending machines. It makes on wonder if there hadn't been some ulterior purpose behind that, perhaps to shift the liability incurred from all respiratory conditions away from heavy industries and towards the tobacco industry—the scapegoat, regardless of the fact that it could have some degree of truth to it (benzene is a pyrolysis product of glucose, which tobacco certainly does have).

 

[Philjay]

Why challenge the likely outcome of either cancer or some other illness, we already have enough carcinogens circulating to make the strain look like a real life depiction of the hazards of daily life.
Add enough toxic threats, you will suffer.

 

[michael94]

Why challenge the likely outcome of either cancer or some other illness, we already have enough carcinogens circulating to make the strain look like a real life depiction of the hazards of daily life.
Add enough toxic threats, you will suffer.

The response to this thinking might be, What about all the carcinogens inherent to poorly digested foods or from bacteria/fungi? Carcinogens do not just come from chemicals and medicine/supplements or what have you. They are inherent to being alive and using energy, at least energy from food...

 

[Amazoniac]

Why challenge the likely outcome of either cancer or some other illness, we already have enough carcinogens circulating to make the strain look like a real life depiction of the hazards of daily life.
Add enough toxic threats, you will suffer.

Except that smoking is about minimizing stress in the short-term, which it does effectively. The problem comes from having to curb too much stress and the cumulative damage.
If you can by other means, great; but most people are dealing with seemingly inescapable stressors.
The number of supercentenarians that had smoked is surprising indeed.
I believe adolescents are numbing themselves to the experience of going through a difficult phase. Those that have it under control seem to prosper as adults. Smoking can work in a similar way and have an overall positive effect if it helps to calm down and process the situation as long as the price of the damage isn't greater than what's been imposed by the stressor.

 

[Wagner83]

The leftmost line (below) of course represents estradiol displacing itself—or a radioactive version of itself to be specific. The most estrogenic flavone is kaempferol—found in strawberries—and the least estrogenic is rutin, found in apples (the glycosylated form of quercetin.)

If it's the most estrogenic one then isn't this study odd ?

The small polyphenolic molecule kaempferol increases cellular energy expenditure and thyroid hormone activation.
da-Silva WS1, Harney JW, Kim BW, Li J, Bianco SD, Crescenzi A, Christoffolete MA, Huang SA, Bianco AC.
Author information
Abstract
Disturbances in energy homeostasis can result in obesity and other metabolic diseases. Here we report a metabolic pathway present in normal human skeletal muscle myoblasts that is activated by the small polyphenolic molecule kaempferol (KPF). Treatment with KPF leads to an approximately 30% increase in skeletal myocyte oxygen consumption. The mechanism involves a several-fold increase in cyclic AMP (cAMP) generation and protein kinase A activation, and the effect of KPF can be mimicked via treatment with dibutyryl cAMP. Microarray and real-time PCR studies identified a set of metabolically relevant genes influenced by KPF including peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator-1alpha, carnitine palmitoyl transferase-1, mitochondrial transcription factor 1, citrate synthase, and uncoupling protein-3, although KPF itself is not a direct mitochondrial uncoupler. The cAMP-responsive gene for type 2 iodothyronine deiodinase (D2), an intracellular enzyme that activates thyroid hormone (T3) for the nucleus, is approximately threefold upregulated by KPF; furthermore, the activity half-life for D2 is dramatically and selectively increased as well. The net effect is an approximately 10-fold stimulation of D2 activity as measured in cell sonicates, with a concurrent increase of approximately 2.6-fold in the rate of T3 production, which persists even 24 h after KPF has been removed from the system. The effects of KPF on D2 are independent of sirtuin activation and only weakly reproduced by other small polyphenolic molecules such as quercetin and fisetin. These data document a novel mechanism by which a xenobiotic-activated pathway can regulate metabolically important genes as well as thyroid hormone activation and thus may influence metabolic control in humans.​

I just remembered that I had found those when haidut was coming up with anti endocrine disruptors products:

Effects of tea catechins on the ERE-regulated estrogenic activity.
Kuruto-Niwa R1, Inoue S, Ogawa S, Muramatsu M, Nozawa R.
Author information
Abstract
Tea catechins exert many biological effects, including anticancer and antibacterial activities. Also, it is reported that some plant flavonoids exhibit estrogenic activity. In this study, we investigated estrogenic or antiestrogenic activities of catechins in HeLa cells transiently transfected with an estrogen response element (ERE)-regulated luciferase reporter and an estrogen receptor (ER) alpha or ERbeta expression vector. Catechins alone did not induce luciferase (luc) activity in either of the ERs. Addition of 17beta-estradiol (E2) plus epicatechin gallate (ECG) or epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) at 5 x 10(-6) M resulted in significant decreases in the ERalpha-mediated luc activity compared with that of E2 alone. On the contrary, lower concentrations significantly increased the E2-induced luc activity. Similar effects were observed with tamoxifen. The ERbeta-mediated estrogenic activities were stimulated by catechins. In conclusion, some catechins, particularly EGCG, were antiestrogenic for ERalpha at higher doses, and co-estrogenic for ERalpha at lower doses and for ERbeta. The lower doses were found in human plasma after tea-drinking. In addition, some catechins may be antiendocrine disruptors because they suppressed bisphenol A-induced luc activities.

The number of supercentenarians that had smoked is surprising indeed.

I wonder if there is something special about the cigars from Cuba.​

 

[Travis]

If it's the most estrogenic one then isn't this study odd ?

It is the most estrogenic when as judging by receptor binding data, but that's not to say that it would be the most estrogenic inside a whole cell. For the sake of brevity I had used to the term 'estrogenic' simply as synonymous with the estrogen receptor binding affinity, but there's always the chance that it's binding to another site withing the cell having an even greater affinity; this could perhaps even shift kaempferol's 'functional estrogenic effect' even lower than quercetin's—completely negligible.

Even as the strongest flavone, it is still a very weak estrogen; nobody is going to get manboobs from eating strawberries.

 

[Philjay]

Except that smoking is about minimizing stress in the short-term, which it does effectively. The problem comes from having to curb too much stress and the cumulative damage.
If you can by other means, great; but most people are dealing with seemingly inescapable stressors.
The number of supercentenarians that had smoked is surprising indeed.
I believe adolescents are numbing themselves to the experience of going through a difficult phase. Those that have it under control seem to prosper as adults. Smoking can work in a similar way and have an overall positive effect if it helps to calm down and process the situation as long as the price of the damage isn't greater than what's been imposed by the stressor.

I just find it hard to accept that something toxic would be a desired cortisol suppressant, there are better alternatives available without the risk. Smoking is a selfish lazy persons crutch, its dirty and its toxic.

 

[Philjay]

Sorry the above is opinion is just that, my opinion and I dont mean to cause offense.

 

[ddjd]

dont the japanese eat a shedload of iodine

 

[DaveFoster]

Well I guess that's "Goodbye!" to soy sauce then.

 

[Philjay]

dont the japanese eat a shedload of iodine

Seaweed as the source?

 

[ddjd]

Seaweed as the source?

exactly

 

[Amazoniac]

exactly

'

 

[Amazoniac]

I just find it hard to accept that something toxic would be a desired cortisol suppressant, there are better alternatives available without the risk. Smoking is a selfish lazy persons crutch, its dirty and its toxic.

I've witnessed people going through stressful periods gaining weight on a poor diet but preserving their sanity and then losing the weight after the stressful period passed. Suchzord has friends who eat a bad diet but have no hair problems, they probably manage to keep their stress levels in check by intuition. Matt Stone used to recommend unnatural and heavily processed foods on purpose for some people that are recovering because they're plentiful in accessible energy that require minimum effort in terms of digestion and lack the potential inconvenients of any natural food consumed in excessive amounts. We're all trying the best that we know of:
Learn how to test bloodwork and more without a doctor - SelfTestable

My favorite hobbies in life are feeling good and not dying.

 

[Philjay]

I've witnessed people going through stressful periods gaining weight on a poor diet but preserving their sanity and then losing the weight after the stressful period passed. Suchzord has friends who eat a bad diet but have no hair problems, they probably manage to keep their stress levels in check by intuition. Matt Stone used to recommend unnatural and heavily processed foods on purpose for some people that are recovering because they're plentiful in accessible energy that require minimum effort in terms of digestion and lack the potential inconvenients of any natural food consumed in excessive amounts. We're all trying the best that we know of:
Learn how to test bloodwork and more without a doctor - SelfTestable

I guess we all have our own poison.

 

[Travis]

Interesting study on kaempferol:

Da-Silva, Wagner S. "The small polyphenolic molecule kaempferol increases cellular energy expenditure and thyroid hormone activation." Diabetes (2007)​

And the author's name is Wagner, just like the Peat‐Forum user who'd originally posted it.

The pro‐thyroid effects of kaempferol were noted between 2–20‧μM, which is less than the amount of (−)‐epigallochatechin gallate found in rat organs after routine tea consumption. So assuming that they a are distributed similarly, the pro‐thyroid effects of kaempferol would be achievable.

Also notable is that no other polyphenol had these effects, and only two others induced T₄‐deiodinase to any significant extent. This induction was confirmed by mRNA, Western blot, and even a T₄ ⟶ T₃ conversion assay—releasing radioactive ¹³¹I which had been then measured via Geiger counter.

So each polyphenol, despite their similarities, can behave quite differently. What is peculiar about the deiodinase‐active polyphenols are, apparently: a hydroxyl group at carbon three, a hydroxyl group at carbon seven, and a keto group at carbon four.

'Next, we used T₄‐deiodinase activity in RMS-13 cells as a readout to screen a large group of natural small polyphenolic molecules that include stilbenes, chalcones, flavones, flavanones, and flavonols and found that only two other flavonols, fisetin and quercetin, were capable of T₄‐deiodinase stimulation of up to 3.5- to 5.0-fold . This indicates that the presence of an OH group at position C‐#3 negatively correlates with T₄‐deiodinase stimulating potency within the flavonol group.' ―Wagner​

'While we have no evidence of direct activation of adenylyl cyclases by kaempferol, the structural similarity between kaempferol and forskolin, also a small polycyclic molecule extracted from plants that directly activates adenylyl cyclase, is notable.' ―Wagner​

This was about as powerful as forskolin, another phytochemical known to do this. What was somewhat amusing was that reseveratrol had the opposite effect:

'Lastly, given that fisetin is a strong activator of the sirtuin pathway, we tested whether treatment with other potent sirtuin activators such as resveratrol, piaceatannol, or butein could affect T₄‐deiodinase activity. Notably, all three compounds reduced T₄‐deiodinase activity level to 25–60% of that of vehicle-treated cells, with resveratrol being the most active in this regard.' ―Wagner​

But there is some debate as to how much kaempferol can be absorbed:

'However, it must be noted that the kaempferol concentrations that produced biologic effects seen in this study (2–20‧μM) cannot easily be attained via dietary supplementation, since for example ingestion of ~9 mg kaempferol contained in a cup of endive soup raises serum kaempferol concentrations to only 0.1‧μM.' ―Wagner​

But this study cited had used a low amount; endive contains kaempferol at 246‧mg/kg, so they had used just a little over an ounce. Kaempferol is found as glycoside and cooking would be expected to significantly reduce the bioavaialability of kaempferol:

'In general, cooking and the methods of culinary preparations have a remarkable effect on polyphenol content [61–67], affecting also their bioavailability and bioactivity. ¶ Miglio et al. [62] clearly showed that the physicochemical parameters and the nutritional qualities of vegetables (in particular carrots, courgettes, and broccoli) are modified by common cooking practices. Carrots completely lost their polyphenols after boiling, while steaming and frying had a less negative effect (−43% and −31%, respectively). For broccoli and courgettes, boiling and frying determined a higher loss of total phenolics than steaming. Their results suggest that for each vegetable, a preferential cooking method could be selected to preserve or improve its nutritional qualities.' ―D’Archivio​

So strawberries and endives could still perhaps have some pro‐thyroid affects if consumed in greater amounts, and raw; but the concentrations that kaempferol begins to induce T₄‐deiodinase transcription also displace estradiol from its receptor ~30%. This could be good in certain high‐estrogen areas where it'd act as an antagonist, yet could still act an agonist in the presence of low estradiol concentrations—similar to genestein though much weaker.

Perhaps forskolin could be something to look into, since it behaves similarly to kaempferol in this regard and has more data.

DuPont, M. S. "Absorption of kaempferol from endive, a source of kaempferol-3-glucuronide, in humans." European journal of clinical nutrition (2004)
D’Archivio, Massimo. "Bioavailability of the polyphenols: status and controversies." International journal of molecular sciences (2010)​

 

[Wagner83]

What about capers? Or strawberries stuffed with capers? Then stuffed in dates? Showing all foods in which the polyphenol Kaempferol is found - Phenol-Explorer
Wouldn't the fibers of endives prevent most of the kaempferol to be absorbed while raw strawberries would work differently? For example I doubt the absorption of nutrients from carrot juice is the same as from the raw carrot salad. As a side note I always enjoyed capers and flowers of capers.

 

[Travis]

LOL! The Phenol Explorer! That's real a cool website, but its not showing endive. And according the study you found, the endive has kaempferol in amounts much greater than those listed on the Phenol Explorer—which also ignores the stereotypical kaempferol‐containing berrry, the strawberry. And strawberries also have LSD.. .

.. .or a least significant difference of 6.2 between determinations.

Gil, Maria I. "Changes in strawberry anthocyanins and other polyphenols in response to carbon dioxide treatments." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1997)​