Questionable Safety Of Dmso

[zooma]

I can't really figure how to get the email exchange up. You can do it as you are a lot slicker at that stuff.
I'd like to bring up an uncomfortable question to the forum, since Georgi has so politely reminded me. Do you really want a person who is selling you things as the main contributor of data? I find the notion anti-Peat. This is a forum of people looking for answers. I don't believe that a person selling things ,and in my opinion subtly veering them in his direction, should be allowed to post.
Initially, I was very impressed with his mastery of facts as I listened on the Generative Energy podcast. He was certainly agreeing with Dr. Peat and seemed perhaps in my subconscious as a young Peat. Certainly with more skills and mastery than I. So I was very interested in him, and I think projecting my respect for Dr. Peat onto him. So things were going along well with my learning until the day I read that he was selling some supplement. Most of me thought that well he knows Dr. Peat better than I do, and he's smarter than I am, and so great. About 10% of me said hmmm. Then he brings out another and another and I remember him stating that he's doing this at cost. And one of his admirers said please Georgi, charge a little for your trouble. At that point I said are you kidding me! No way he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart, unless he is Saint Georgi. (If you are I sincerely apologize.) I noticed the Estroban add in this forum and it wanted everyone to take a poll on how much they were willing to pay for a 30 day supply, 10,20,30,40,or 50 dollars. This is determining the price according to what the market will bear, 101. But in the same post he states "I would sell it at cost, just like Ray is selling his Progest-E". If that were so, why have the poll on what price you are willing to pay. If it were so you would have asked would anyone pay $18.32 (assuming that is the cost). And note how he wrapped himself in Dr. Peat's flag saying "just like Ray is selling his Progest-E". And I remember hearing Dr. Peat say he has had no financial connection to Progest-E for I think 20 years.
So upon reading these things I was suspicious, but still the supplements looked better than most, as I was trying to get away from the excipients. So I ordered the retinil, estroban, and the tyromax. But as I stated already in my post I reacted to it. Georgi said no problem, dilute it. I didn't use it any more and started the investigation. As I found potential problems I expressed them to Georgi in another email but he did not respond to them. I responded to every point he made and he cherry-picked his responses, and I said at the time, just like a pharmaceutical company. If he couldn't convince me with his weak FDA evidence he just wanted me to go away. I eventually did.
And so I was convinced that DMSO had problems. But then I notice there are other supplements he's selling with DMSO, and the rest of the forum less wise about the possible ill-effects. So I decided to post the evidence. By the way there is more to come.
In conclusion, I don't believe a member of the forum should be selling things directly on the forum. Let's call it the separation of science and capitalism. Of all things Dr. Peat would agree with that. And Georgi by all means put our emails up, I just read them again and they sounded pretty good. (Of course I believe Georgi is trying to intimidate me.)

I never usually get involved in threads like this, but I feel compelled to respond here.

If you want to publicly attack the most helpful and liked poster on this forum based on some private correspondence, I think it is fair to say you need to provide that as evidence. You accuse haidut of cherry-picking data; yet you have done exactly the same.

If you bothered to actually have a look at his activity on the forum, you would see that he was posting very regularly for years before he produced any supplements. haidut has never pushed his supplements on the forum and has been very mindful of appearing to do so - he often suggests other products, and I can recall at least one occasion he has suggested against his own product for a particular case (based on dosage IIRC). It just happens that haidut has always been the major contributor of studies on here, he formulates his supplements based on what he reads and what others suggest around here - not the other way around.

If you have concerns about DMSO or anything else in his products then you can post on the forum and discuss them with us if you weren't convinced by a one-to-one conversation with haidut. He doesn't have all the answers, if you don't like his current formulation you can raise your concerns - he may agree and look to change it, or he may not. No one is forcing you to buy his products. Do you contact all major supplement companies extolling the dangers of their fish oil capsules?

If you have asked RP about these things, please share them in our email correspondence thread. No one has all the answers, but if RP raises a direct concern over something the vast majority of us here will take that seriously - I'm sure haidut is one of those.

haidut is not affiliated with the forum and is just a member here like everyone else. If you have a problem with what is being advertised on the forum, you are free to contact the owner @charlie

 

[tara]

It just happens that haidut has always been the major contributor of studies on here, he formulates his supplements based on what he reads and what others suggest around here - not the other way around.

That's how it looks to me too.

 

[zooma]

Edit: I will also say this, Haidut's supps will only ever be accessible in a small way like they are here. They will never be in a retail setting because, at least in the US, you cannot get away with doing some of the combinations he does. If his supps got big, started getting lots of attention and sales, he would be shut down so fast, or have so much red tape thrown in front of him, that we could kiss this gift good bye. As someone apart of the vitamin industry, having access to these formulations is really something to be thankful for.

I meant to address this too. haidut is a very intelligent guy, and I can assure you if he was looking to get rich from selling supplements he would have taken a different path to this. As @Tarmander says, if this ever become big, some of these formulations would have no hope of surviving - especially some of the newer ones.

 

[Sheila]

Dear Mr Farmer,

You wrote above:
"I then asked myself what other organic sulfur compounds are around and interestingly found dimethyl sufate [sic], also known as sulfuric acid or DMS. Therefore with the article's logic sulfuric acid is a good source of sulfur."

For accuracy, which is useful but often jettisoned quickly in teacup storms, may I just add that dimethyl sulfate is not sulphuric acid.

Thank you.

Sheila

 

[haidut]

I can not disagree more. What will this give us? We would either loose some very high quality products, or we loose a brilliant forum member.

And yes, if the fact that haidut is selling stuff makes you doubt his posts more, and makes you do more research on your own, that is only a good thing.

Thank you!
I would also like to point out that there is not a single post on this forum where I have actively recommended people buy my supplements. If the people that had In fact, there are quite few posts of mine where I actually discouraged people from buying my own supplement since I thought that another substance or a generic compound in higher/lower doses would be more suitable. Better yet, if anybody on this forum has evidence suggesting that I was pushing ANY of my supplements in ANY of my posts/emails please step forward and post our exchange publicly here!

 

[haidut]

I work in the vitamin industry as a broker. I represent companies selling vitamins in a retail setting. I think most of my lines are high quality and ethical, and would get results for people taking them. Still, the quality of Haidut's stuff is on a higher level. It would be a travesty if he had to stop selling his supps. His supps are also more dangerous and powerful. You will have to make your own decisions here. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen as they say.

Edit: I will also say this, Haidut's supps will only ever be accessible in a small way like they are here. They will never be in a retail setting because, at least in the US, you cannot get away with doing some of the combinations he does. If his supps got big, started getting lots of attention and sales, he would be shut down so fast, or have so much red tape thrown in front of him, that we could kiss this gift good bye. As someone apart of the vitamin industry, having access to these formulations is really something to be thankful for.

Thank you very much! That is really valuable insight. If you don't mind, I would like to learn more about the potential risks about some of my supplements. Feel free to post here or PM me. What I am especially interested in is whether it is the specific formulations (and which ones) or the studies I post in support of these supplements that are riskier (or both)?

 

[tara]

For accuracy, which is useful but often jettisoned quickly in teacup storms, may I just add that dimethyl sulfate is not sulphuric acid.

:)

 

[narouz]

I love haidut's posts and his supplements.

 

[GAF]

These lame attacks are a sign of success. Expect more.

 

[haidut]

I never usually get involved in threads like this, but I feel compelled to respond here.

If you want to publicly attack the most helpful and liked poster on this forum based on some private correspondence, I think it is fair to say you need to provide that as evidence. You accuse haidut of cherry-picking data; yet you have done exactly the same.

If you bothered to actually have a look at his activity on the forum, you would see that he was posting very regularly for years before he produced any supplements. haidut has never pushed his supplements on the forum and has been very mindful of appearing to do so - he often suggests other products, and I can recall at least one occasion he has suggested against his own product for a particular case (based on dosage IIRC). It just happens that haidut has always been the major contributor of studies on here, he formulates his supplements based on what he reads and what others suggest around here - not the other way around.

If you have concerns about DMSO or anything else in his products then you can post on the forum and discuss them with us if you weren't convinced by a one-to-one conversation with haidut. He doesn't have all the answers, if you don't like his current formulation you can raise your concerns - he may agree and look to change it, or he may not. No one is forcing you to buy his products. Do you contact all major supplement companies extolling the dangers of their fish oil capsules?

If you have asked RP about these things, please share them in our email correspondence thread. No one has all the answers, but if RP raises a direct concern over something the vast majority of us here will take that seriously - I'm sure haidut is one of those.

haidut is not affiliated with the forum and is just a member here like everyone else. If you have a problem with what is being advertised on the forum, you are free to contact the owner @charlie

Another big thank you! If you read my email exchanges with Mark (look for previous post with attachments mark1 and mark2) you will see that this is exactly what I said to him as well. In the absense of perfect/definitive knowledge I have to resort to a combination of public opinion of safety (FDA), published research (PubMed), and personal experimentation (on myself, friends, family, etc). I don't claim 100% safety, but if we have to be fair there are quite a few things that we ingest in a daily basis that are in our food and water and we really do not know if they are safe for us. Namely, there are compounds in food for which the presumption of safety is just that, in the face of studies showing harm. Carrageenan is a very good example, approved for use even in organic food.
DMSO has the added plus that there ARE studies looking at its safety and while no study will be perfect, a large number of diverse studies from authors that have nothing to do with each other and no known conflicts of interest, and no financial interest in DMSO, gives some indication of safety. DMSO also has a chemical structure and effects on cells and metabolism that suggest benefit. Like anything else, including presumably safe ingredients like riboflavin and aspirin, there is always the potential for side effects, which I cannot fully rule out given my limited resources and knowledge. I concluded my email exchange by saying that if Mark really has such strong reservations about DMSO he should not be using our products. At that point, I offered him a refund for the second time (the first time he ignored me), issued the refund and thought that the matter is resolved. Boy, was I wrong!
Finally, everybody reading this thread will immediately notice that while the thread's title is ostensibly about toxicity of DMSO, the posts by Mark so far are mostly about me and his perceived problems with me and my supplements. I actually did ask him this question in my first or second email, as I have encountered thousands of times before that whenever somebody is that upset it is always something personal and never about a product or service (which were refunded btw).
So, hopefully this thread will shed some light on my transgressions that led to this.
Once again, thanks to everybody for their support and honest feedback. It is priceless for me both as an individual and vitamin "peddler"

 

[haidut]

I love haidut's posts and his supplements.

Love you guys too! This place is a God-send.

 

[haidut]

These lame attacks are a sign of success. Expect more.

My friend, I hope you are right about the success and wrong about the "more" part

 

[MCF]

As a person with many digestive issues, your topical products has been fantastic. Since using Idealabs producst, I no longer worry about absorption issues when taking them orally. I use Estroban, Retinyl, Pansterone, Energin, Oxidal and just ordered the vitamin K2 product. You are creative, knowledgeable, helpful and have answered every personal e-mail I ever wrote to you.

A thousand thank-you's Haidut!

 

[GAF]

I find these lame attacks easy to spot from the original post, and I hate to see you super phenomenal scientists waste your time responding to obvious crap. But, the overwhelming intelligence of the real posters comes thru and valuable information is presented in a professional way. The sad part is that those well meaning folks with less scientific diligence can become frustrated by the back and forth and throw up their hands in despair. Those folks are the targets of these attacks.

 

[haidut]

As a person with many digestive issues, your topical products has been fantastic. Since using Idealabs producst, I no longer worry about absorption issues when taking them orally. I use Estroban, Retinyl, Pansterone, Energin, Oxidal and just ordered the vitamin K2 product. You are creative, knowledgeable, helpful and have answered every personal e-mail I ever wrote to you.

A thousand thank-you's Haidut!

Thank you, and everybody else making this place my refuge from the daily crap we all experience in our lives.

 

[haidut]

I find these lame attacks easy to spot from the original post, and I hate to see you super phenomenal scientists waste your time responding to obvious crap. But, the overwhelming intelligence of the real posters comes thru and valuable information is presented in a professional way. The sad part is that those well meaning folks with less scientific diligence can become frustrated by the back and forth and throw up their hands in despair. Those folks are the targets of these attacks.

Yeah, that's my concern really. That this will create enough FUD ("fear, uncertainty, doubt" for those unfamiliar with computer jargon) that some people will just give up on trying to figure out what's going on. Hope not.

 

[jb116]

I find it unreal that a person without identity here, safe behind their computer, brand new to the community basically comes on the forum to deceive first and foremost. When you have a conversation in pursuit of honest exchange, how can you come on a forum and post half of what you interchanged?? That is deceit. Then accusing an esteemed community member? That is brazen.

 

[GAF]

Jb116...that is why they are so easy to spot. A sincere decent person doesn't behave in such ill-mannered way. Charlie could just whack the post from the beginning but maybe this forum is not for the weak and great info emerged anyway, so let them try and fail over and over. Personally, I am good with an alert of some sort, but I am just a beginner at the forum business and just thankful I stumbled upon this one.

 

[Drareg]

Been looking at Peats work 3 years, I used to come here to check for anecdotal accounts for contraindications to supplements.

Some great dialogue true to the spirit of dialogue on here the last while but also it seems the forum is becoming more susceptible to personalities who claim to read Peats articles and also do labs.

I appreciate all of you Charlie,Mods,Danny Roddy etc want to put the word out about Peat ,it will backfire I feel unless there is a layering effect of sorts for those who just want a magic bullet.
People will be using copy /paste for blogs not being bothered to read or listen to Peats original material and clearly many have been exploring supplements then blaming when they backfire a little.

Peats articles are layered as many of you will know by now. This forum will be a phenomenal resource for those who can embrace the true spirit of dialogue, this poster farmer Mark is an example of somebody who won't let go of preconceived and projected notions .The whole point of the forum from what I get is to have dialogue with Peats understanding as a fulcrum of sorts to get started, there is no reason why this should not extend to a forum member offering a supplement based off this platform.

Peat is telling us more than we realise with his articles and context based dietary advice, what that is I don't know for sure but it reminds of Platos dialectic or Bohms dialogue of sorts, William Blake ties in here too. None of them ever touched deeply on the importance of biology for taking onboard coherent information, Mae Wan Ho is right claiming this century is for biology,it seems to be the missing link in our understanding of our behaviour/consciousness.

Farmer mark should listen to Danny Roddy talking to Karen on the podcast today, they have followed Peats work along time and still not got it all figured, they are clear that they don't follow dogmatically but like all great dialogues that drop the mental barriers Peats work is a great starting point.

It does not take long for this type of poster to have the mask slip. You had many posters like this that when engaged and have contradiction exposed they would freak out and claim all of you are dogmatic because you won't let that poster call you on your contradiction ,have you just except and let them be the boss.

 

[Koveras]

+1 in support of Haidut

I suffered a reaction related to one of the products with DMSO, but was aware of the risk and wish to stress that it was my risk to take.

Regulation is a very tough issue - and my stance could vary widely depending on the topic, the scale, and upon who is doing the regulating. Without delving too deep into these questions though I would express that I enjoy my freedom in this matter.

Very grateful for the the time and effort Haidut (as well as others) have put into this community.