Low Toxin Supplements PSA: DO NOT START ON NIACIN IF YOU ARE STILL LIVING A TOXIC LIFESTYLE

[Peater]

Very interesting @mosaic01. Appreciate all the replies on this thread.

 

[mosaic01]

I will go find some warnings about pushing too hard.

I don't think niacin is needed in doses above 300-400mg per day to push the detox pathways. Higher doses than that make one feel better, but this is probably due to the NAD pathway and suppressing adrenaline, adrenochrome and other stress hormones. So in smaller doses, eating betaine-rich foods like wheat could be sufficient.

When I took 500mg trice daily, I stopped flushing completely. Taking 500mg once every day or every second day always led to a full flush.

 

[charlie]

I don't think niacin is needed in doses above 300-400mg per day to push the detox pathways. Higher doses than that make one feel better, but this is probably due to the NAD pathway and suppressing adrenaline and other stress hormones. So in smaller doses, eating betaine-rich foods like wheat could be sufficient.

I am going to bring my dose down and see how I do in those ranges. Thank you for sharing.

 

[purple pill]

I don't think niacin is needed in doses above 300-400mg per day to push the detox pathways. Higher doses than that make one feel better, but this is probably due to the NAD pathway and suppressing adrenaline, adrenochrome and other stress hormones. So in smaller doses, eating betaine-rich foods like wheat could be sufficient.

When I took 500mg trice daily, I stopped flushing completely. Taking 500mg once every day or every second day always led to a full flush.

I think you're right, i've settled on 400mg at nights, gives me a nice subtle flush. 300mg is a bit meh for me, 500mg probably too much. Body weight will probably play in to suitable dosage.... thats about 5mg per kg for me.

 

[charlie]

I don't think niacin is needed in doses above 300-400mg per day to push the detox pathways.

Do you think it should be one dose a day? Or spread out say like 100mg after each meal and then 100mg near bedtime?

 

[mosaic01]

Do you think it should be one dose a day? Or spread out say like 100mg after each meal and then 100mg near bedtime?

Probably all at once, because Hoffer thought the flush is therapeutic in itself (and others are observing this as well), and 100mg will likely not lead to a flush. When there's a noticable strong flush, it's probably the ideal dose.

 

[Hidden49]

What does she mean?

I don't think the test for hypomethylation is if you flush on 50mg. The flush also does not go away if you space the intake apart enough.

If you take for example 50mg every second day, you will always flush. The flush involves depleting histamine stores of the mast cells, and they take some time to get repleted. The flush can be prevented by taking aspirin with the niacin, it has nothing to do with methylation.

The metabolism of niacin and niacinamide requires methyl groups, that's an established fact. Niacinamide probably wastes more methyl groups than niacin, but some niacin is converted to niacinamide, which requires methyl groups to get converted to methylniacinamide.

When I took TMG my increased liver enzymes (from niacinamide) went down to healthy levels within weeks.

I can get behind niacin not wasting as much methyl groups as niacinamide, because most of the niacin gets excreted via glycine. But if the diet does not provide ample amounts of betaine (like 500mg), niacin in doses above a couple hundred mg will likely deplete the methyl pool over time.

She also doesn't seem to know that the body has a methyl pool. It can take weeks on high dose niacin to deplete the methyl pool.

Yeah that's not an explanation, they are just making stuff up as they go along

 

[DKayJoe]

If we shouldn't take niacin while living a toxic lifestyle where's the line? I know Vit A is considered toxic so should you not take niacin until VA intake is below a specific threshold or is it a certain amount of saturation in the body that's the issue?

Do you take other toxins into account and if so which one's and at what levels? Is it overall toxicity or specific toxins below specific levels, and if so how do you detox without taking the niacin to help you detox in the first place?

Genuinely interested as in this day and age a completely non toxic lifestyle is all but impossible...

 

[charlie]

Yeah that's not an explanation, they are just making stuff up as they go along

To be fair. She is in the middle of launching a new business and does not have much extra time right now so it was a short response. I look forward to her clarifying more.

 

[charlie]

If we shouldn't take niacin while living a toxic lifestyle where's the line? I know Vit A is considered toxic so should you not take niacin until VA intake is below a specific threshold or is it a certain amount of saturation in the body that's the issue?

Do you take other toxins into account and if so which one's and at what levels? Is it overall toxicity or specific toxins below specific levels, and if so how do you detox without taking the niacin to help you detox in the first place?

Genuinely interested as in this day and age a completely non toxic lifestyle is all but impossible...

The takeaway is you just want to keep the intake of toxins as low as possible when taking Niacin

 

[mosaic01]

If we shouldn't take niacin while living a toxic lifestyle where's the line? I know Vit A is considered toxic so should you not take niacin until VA intake is below a specific threshold or is it a certain amount of saturation in the body that's the issue?

Do you take other toxins into account and if so which one's and at what levels? Is it overall toxicity or specific toxins below specific levels, and if so how do you detox without taking the niacin to help you detox in the first place?

Genuinely interested as in this day and age a completely non toxic lifestyle is all but impossible...

Stopping coffee, chocolate, processed foods, alcohol, excess sugar/fructose, liver and colored veggies is probably a good start for benefitting from niacin.

Abram Hoffer had all of his patients on a sugar-free paleo style diet with lots of meat to stabilize blood sugar, before putting them on niacin. He noticed that dietary sugar causes mental disease by causing blood sugar spikes.

 

[DKayJoe]

Stopping coffee, chocolate, processed foods, alcohol, excess sugar/fructose, liver and colored veggies is probably a good start for benefitting from niacin.

Abram Hoffer had all of his patients on a sugar-free paleo style diet with lots of meat to stabilize blood sugar, before putting them on niacin. He noticed that dietary sugar causes mental disease by causing blood sugar spikes.

Thanks for the speedy response, ok interesting, I suppose what I'm asking is are there any biological markers that can be measured to establish some sort of gradient for this? Any studies relating to the benefits/downsides of niacin supplementation in regards to the toxins the foods you listed contain? To be clear I'm not attempting to debunk anything here, but I am in the low toxin curious camp and am looking for some concrete to solidify my coming decisions.

 

[charlie]

Thanks for the speedy response, ok interesting, I suppose what I'm asking is are there any biological markers that can be measured to establish some sort of gradient for this? Any studies relating to the benefits/downsides of niacin supplementation in regards to the toxins the foods you listed contain? To be clear I'm not attempting to debunk anything here, but I am in the low toxin curious camp and am looking for some concrete to solidify my coming decisions.

For my family, I have no problem starting them on 50mg a day while they are lowering their toxin intake. Not everyone is going to go toxin free all at one, its a process of letting things go. So 50mg a day is where I tell them to start and I have seen no issues with that.

 

[mosaic01]

Thanks for the speedy response, ok interesting, I suppose what I'm asking is are there any biological markers that can be measured to establish some sort of gradient for this? Any studies relating to the benefits/downsides of niacin supplementation in regards to the toxins the foods you listed contain? To be clear I'm not attempting to debunk anything here, but I am in the low toxin curious camp and am looking for some concrete to solidify my coming decisions.

All of this is pretty much anecdotes right now. My personal experience is that everyone can take niacin without problems, independent from diet.

But theoretically, and logically, you can only use niacin to actually detox and and make actual progress if you stop the intoxing first. And the things I listed really keep the body away from detoxing. Dairy may also do it.

Niacin has many positive effects but in the context of a low toxin diet it becomes a tool for detox, and I notice that it acts differently since I am no longer suppressing my toxicity.

 

[DKayJoe]

For my family, I have no problem starting them on 50mg a day while they are lowering their toxin intake. Not everyone is going to go toxin free all at one, its a process of letting things go. So 50mg a day is where I tell them to start and I have seen no issues with that.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[DKayJoe]

All of this is pretty much anecdotes right now. My personal experience is that everyone can take niacin without problems, independent from diet.

But theoretically, and logically, you can only use niacin to actually detox and and make actual progress if you stop the intoxing first.

Ah ok, that makes sense, you seem far more informed on this than me, would you be willing to hazard a guess at the sort of relationships you would look into between niacin and other substances if you did want to try and establish this gradient? I suppose you would also want to include liver enzymes and the like into the study as well to get a picture of general detox ability in the organism in addition to toxin intake.

 

[mosaic01]

Ah ok, that makes sense, you seem far more informed on this than me, would you be willing to hazard a guess at the sort of relationships you would look into between niacin and other substances if you did want to try and establish this gradient? I suppose you would also want to include liver enzymes and the like into the study as well to get a picture of general detox ability in the organism in addition to toxin intake.

It's just a basic principle of detoxification.

If you have a toxicity problem, in order to benefit from the ability of niacin to help with that, you need to reduce the intake, otherwise you will not make any progress because the intake is too high for the body to let go of it's stores.

The cells must detox into the blood for the liver to actually be helpful in detox.

The blood must be free of toxins for the cells to start dumping. As long as new toxins get in, the body is busy managing that, and the cells sense that the blood is full of toxins.

 

[charlie]

It's just a basic principle of detoxification.

If you have a toxicity problem, in order to benefit from the ability of niacin to help with that, you need to reduce the intake, otherwise you will not make any progress because the intake is too high for the body to let go of it's stores.

The cells must detox into the blood for the liver to actually be helpful in detox.

The blood most be free of toxins for the cells to start dumping. As long as new toxins get in, the body is busy managing that, and the cells sense that the blood is full of toxins.

Exactly.

 

[InChristAlone]

About the betaine... a dietician over on the facebook vit a toxicity group said this: "I think it's pushing pathways...it can increase need for riboflavin and also the metabolic end of using betaine is sarcosine which can bind to copper. Definitely go to a lower dose. We do no more than 350 mg here in my house."

She works with special needs kids who are tube fed:
"I have a 12 year old client who was tube fed on Nourish which is a high carotenoid, high oxalate tube feeding. She became vA toxic. We changed her to only getting the RDA of vitamin A, added two eggs per day. Her liver enzymes started to trend down, but about two months ago we added betaine and now she has normal liver enzymes and hasn't for years!!
Her serum A is still high. Whether this reflects liver maxed out, mobilization of vitamin A from the liver, poor uptake from tissues, or poor metabolism by the immune system (I think this is probably), is a mystery.
Serum A isn't the only thing to look at. Improving body systems while having a high serum vitamin A should be celebrated.
Celebrate improvements. Improvements bring hope. Hope brings healing."

Here is her youtube channel, this video is on nitric oxide:


Some more info on nitric oxide:
"At the start or peak of Vitamin A toxicity you may have high levels of nitric oxide. Be careful with high nitrate sources like arugula, spinach (excluded usually), beetroot (a source of betaine potentially), iceberg lettuce and bok choy. Be careful with vasodilator type herbs such as hawthorn, yarrow and garlic. Pomegranates might also have this effect. Melons with citrulline also may increase nitric oxide. Arginine high foods like mung beans, chick peas, soy beans, peanut butter and sunflower seeds in cup size quantities may increase nitric oxide too. Hot baths particularly with magnesium, saunas, hard manual labour and strenuous exercise might also have a vasodilatory role.

So be careful at first in a sense you are trying to detox a weak body and the principle applies as much to these activities as it does to promoting a strong detox in a weak body. Betaine foods like organic spelt and quinoa and choline foods like eggs, pork and beef will help you initially and reduce the risk. A folate food source might also help although I'd take the nuts and beans slow at first due to the arginine while choline is being replenished. High nitric oxide can trigger headaches and seizures and indeed can do liver damage. Red eye might be a symptom. I think many might be safe after 6 months of choline and betaine but with complications and continuing symptoms it might take longer for some.

Thanks to Meri Arthur for figuring out that excess nitric oxide can be a problem with Vitamin A toxicity. Poor kidney function might lead to lower nitric oxide synthesis. Improving kidneys but still high Vitamin A toxicity might give you high nitric oxide concerns like the above.

Lactate, glutamate, ammonium, nitric oxide, quinolinate, estrogen, histamine, aminolevulinate, porphyrin, ultraviolet light, polyunsaturated fatty acids and endotoxin contribute to excitatory and excitotoxic processes, vasodilation, angioneogenesis, and fibrosis per Ray Peat. They are all connected to high NO and low NAD dysfunction. And they are both due to mitochondria damage" -Jenny Jones

"Betaine inhibits excess nitric oxide. Choline protects you from the LPS neuroinflammation as well. Vitamin A toxicity makes you more susceptible to high nitric oxide."
-Andrew Baird

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3600952/

Another comment on taking too much betaine hcl:
"I think that betaine HCL can help, but I don't think that more than 1500 mg per day is a good idea? This such a new area for me, honestly. Here is what I'm thinking. If your folate is low (not sure your folate status) then you are going to be pushing that betaine through methionine salvage pathway. This can lead to high sarcosine levels (betaine is broken down to DMG which is then broken down to sarcosine). If your folate is low, then GNMT is upregulated. This could lead to overall high sarcosine level. If folate is low, sarcosine will be metabolized to formaldehyde and this will tie up ALDH7A1 in detoxing it. So...I think betaine AND normal folate status is okay, but betaine alone is very bad." -Meri Arthur dietician

More context...
"So...this might explain the egg controversy a bit. Some people maybe are experiencing an overuse of ALDH7A1 due to betaine deficiency as their intake of eggs increases. In this case going above two eggs per day might make us feel jitters, nausea, headache, sleepless.

I propose that overworking this enzyme in betaine production from phosphatidylcholine results in a functional B6 deficiency. This leads to glutamate intolerance, nausea, headaches, sleeplessness. It can also lead to alterations in neurotransmitter production.

Should we restrict sources of phosphatidyl choline? No. We need that for cell membranes and also for liver detox among other things.

One thing I don't say in this post is that betaine helps with the methionine salvage pathway, but B12 and folate do as well. So, if your are struggling with methylation and have suboptimal folate or B12 status, this could be one more thing to work on that could take the burden off of this enzymatic pathway that if diverted destroys your B6. However, genetics is key. The enzymes involved in methylation need to be evaluated before supplementing."

"Fungus can destroy your body by stealing copper, zinc, and niacin. A fungal infection increases iNOS which puts you in a high nitric oxide state.
High NO will turn off methylation with methionine synthase and turn on BHMT back up pathway. Being stuck in this pathway results in tying up ALDH7A1 in producing betaine if dietary intakes are low. This leads to a functional B6 deficiency due to poor lysine metabolism.
Low B6 leads to low NAD production from Tryptophan."

"There is a goldilocks zone for nitric oxide. An excess will kill cancer, small amounts help us do physiological stuff, but there is this middle road that makes cancer grow. This is serious.
Hypervitaminosis A (high serum A which is associated with high RBP4) induces a high NO state by increase INF-y and TNF-alpha which triggers a cascade involving NF-KB which induces expression of iNOS.
LPS from bad gut bacteria will also induce iNOS.
Copper in excess can also induce iNOS.
Another sign of excess iNOS activity is postural orthastic tachycardia syndrome."

I don't agree with everything Meri says, but I think she is coming around due to being in the vit A toxicity group. And she will do much good in the special needs community.

 

[mattmm24]

Its complete poo poo to keep the people confused and make them think they have some awesome knowledge as to which they do not and is basically keeping them confused and in the dark. When I pinged Kelsey on this her response was the test for hypomethylation is if someone flushes at 50mg. So why does the flush go away for the next doses if it makes methylation worse? And that it also depletes copper which is good.

Basically she says its all hogwash to keep people away from this incredible substance.

I don’t understand this idea that copper is bad. It’s just a mineral that our body needs. Yes most people’s bodies can’t use it properly. But that doesn’t make copper bad. And I know most people are copper toxic.