Cancer And Glucose (sugar)

[tara]

I'm finding this discussion about salt, sodium and potassium interesting and informative, thanks all.

 

[SAFarmer]

"

Ray has been absolutely unable to come with a credible explanation for this phenomenon; he has avoided answering it when specifically asked (see interview transcript).

Firstly Burt, I must thank you for making me aware of this Ray Peat transcript, which I have now also read. It just confirms what he has said consistently in all his other papers and articles about the minerals.

Your conclusion above is however without merit imo. I think Ray explains perfectly why the excess other minerals like magnesium and especially Potassium, substituted for the low sodium in the success of the Gerson diet .

Keep well.

 

[Richiebogie]

I think Peat says that high potassium, high sodium reduces swelling whereas Gerson, Ling, Sodi etc prefer high potassium, low sodium to reduce swelling.

Dad said once he was eating at my grandmother's house where he and my aunt kept adding more salt but were not satisfied. Eventually they found out that grandma had put potassium chloride in the salt shaker!

We do love the taste of sodium chloride which suggests we should consume it, but perhaps this love of sodium evolved in a very low sodium environment, with no shortage of high potassium foods...

That is, maybe it was to encourage us to eat foods like celery to obtain minuscule amounts of sodium...

Potassium | Nutrient Reference Values

"Potassium requirements can be affected by climate and physical activity, the use of diuretics, and the intake of other electrolytes, notably sodium. Potassium blunts the effect of sodium chloride on blood pressure, mitigating salt sensitivity and lowering urinary calcium excretion (Whelton et al 1997). Given this interrelatedness, requirement for potassium depends to some extent on dietary sodium, however, the ideal sodium : potassium intake ratio is not sufficiently established to use in setting requirements.

It has been hypothesised that high protein-low potassium diets could induce a low-grade metabolic acidosis that could induce demineralisation of bone, osteoporosis and kidney stones (Barzel 1995, Lemann et al 1999) and epidemiological and metabolic studies have supported this suggestion (Maurer et al 2003, Morris et al 2001, New et al 1997, Sebastian et al 1994, Tucker et al 1999)."

Perhaps a high potassium low sodium diet removes Peat's requirement for dairy, due to the reduction of excretion of calcium.

 

[Richiebogie]

After a year of experimentation, raw vegan Andrew Perlot has resumed not supplementing with sodium chloride, and claims he can taste more flavours in cantaloupe...

I wonder if he is tasting small amounts of sodium?

 

[Peata]

After a year of experimentation, raw vegan Andrew Perlot has resumed not supplementing with sodium chloride, and claims he can taste more flavours in cantaloupe...

I wonder if he is tasting small amounts of sodium?

I think you can adapt to any tastes and learn to enjoy about anything. A lot of how "we" perceive food/taste/enjoy or not is in our heads and just what we are used to or become used to. Speaking of myself, anyway, I should add.

I reduced salt a lot one time and while eating that way, I disliked any added salt to food. Made it too salty where I didn't enjoy it. I also tasted the actual food better. So maybe you do pick up the natural sodium in foods then.

 

[haidut]

Keep in mind that the serotonin transporter, which disposes of serotonin, is sodium depended. I posted a few human studies showing that eating less than 5g sodium a day (which is about 10g - 12g salt) starts to increase serotonin in humans. I don't think anybody needs an argument explaining why low serotonin is good, right? So, eat your salt, most people are actually functionally deficient in it and you need it for stomach acid production, which determines CO2 levels as well.

 

[SAFarmer]

Keep in mind that the serotonin transporter, which disposes of serotonin, is sodium depended. I posted a few human studies showing that eating less than 5g sodium a day (which is about 10g - 12g salt) starts to increase serotonin in humans. I don't think anybody needs an argument explaining why low serotonin is good, right? So, eat your salt, most people are actually functionally deficient in it and you need it for stomach acid production, which determines CO2 levels as well.

How does stomach acid production determine CO2 levels ?

 

[haidut]

How does stomach acid production determine CO2 levels ?

Here is something to consider:
Reducing Stomach Acid Decreases Intracellular Co2

 

[CarbAppreciator]

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem-29-1-55
Abstract says carbs inhibit sodium and potassium excretion, while fat accelerates it, seems water fasting with potassium bicarb or chloride would be the best way to achieve the sodium excretion, maybe add magnesium bicarb too. Isn't the Gerson diet low calorie?

 

[SAFarmer]

Here is something to consider:
Reducing Stomach Acid Decreases Intracellular Co2

This study is about an intervention, and reducing stomach acid production locally in vitro.
How can one then infer from this study , that when the body produces less stomach acid naturally in vivo, that the global body wide intracellular CO2 production decrease ?

Or put another way, if I eat food that require less stomach acid production, does that mean, from your reference, that my body produces less CO2 ?

 

[haidut]

This study is about an intervention, and reducing stomach acid production locally in vitro.
How can one then infer from this study , that when the body produces less stomach acid naturally in vivo, that the global body wide intracellular CO2 production decrease ?

Or put another way, if I eat food that require less stomach acid production, does that mean, from your reference, that my body produces less CO2 ?

All I am saying is that low stomach acid is present in virtually all cases of hypothyroidism (hence the explosion of SIBO epidemic recently), and so is low CO2. When you don't produce enough gastric acid you won't digest the food properly and it won't absorb well. This applies even to carbohydrates like sucrose or starch, which are the main sources of CO2 production. Without enough stomach acid the hydrolysis of these macronutrients is incomplete at best and not only you end up with less absorbed food but the indigested food contributes to development of SIBO and feeds the colonic bacteria to produce endotoxin.
So, yes, if you produce less stomach acid than the food eaten requires for proper digestion then you'll produce less CO2.
The Digestion & Absorption of Sucrose
Absorption of Monosaccharides

What makes it a vicious circle is that CO2 ie required for stomach acid production.
The source of carbon dioxide for gastric acid production. - PubMed - NCBI
So, once a person is stuck in this loop I guess somehow raising either CO2 or stomach acid pharmacologically would be the only way out. Thiamine, betaine, pepsin, etc can help in such cases. Thiamine is probably crucial as it can help both stomach acid production and CO2 generation.

 

[YuraCZ]

And that's exactly why eating hard to digest foods is not really good idea. Especially for hypothyroid people who see Peat friendly foods such as beef, milk(casein really hard to break down same with gluten..).. Those foods will cause more harm than good.. So stick with easy to digest sources of protein such as hydrolyzed collagen and even good quality whey protein is much better choice than any meat or dairy. Also ripe fruits or juices are extremely easy to digest.. Btw not just sodium is required for strong stomach acid. But it doesn't matter because you can have all nutrients you want. But if you are under stress( sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system aka rest and digest vs run or fight). That will stop digestion very effectively.. So eating hard to digest food in hurry would be the worst scenario... Something like cheeseburger(casein, gluten and beef the worst combo heh) in the way from work for example. How much people doing this. Everybody lol...

 

[SAFarmer]

All I am saying is that low stomach acid is present in virtually all cases of hypothyroidism

True, and if that was what you said originally, I wouldn't have questioned it. But, it was not what you said.

If someone is hypothyroid, then their metabolism would be low and hence the possibility would be higher that the the cells in the stomach might be producing less acid., less food would get digested properly and all the other things you said would be true as well.

Not all foods require huge amounts of stomach acid though. If someone eats huge amounts of easily digested sugars or ripe fruit, surely they might be producing less stomach acid, but it does not necessarily follow that their metabolism would go down too and therefore produce less CO2 ?

 

[haidut]

True, and if that was what you said originally, I wouldn't have questioned it. But, it was not what you said.

If someone is hypothyroid, then their metabolism would be low and hence the possibility would be higher that the the cells in the stomach might be producing less acid., less food would get digested properly and all the other things you said would be true as well.

Not all foods require huge amounts of stomach acid though. If someone eats huge amounts of easily digested sugars or ripe fruit, surely they might be producing less stomach acid, but it does not necessarily follow that their metabolism would go down too and therefore produce less CO2 ?

I am not sure the difference in acid production is that big between easily digestible food and difficult ones. The amount of acid is actually more dependent on amount of food eaten. It is the release of digestive enzymes in different amounts that depends on the type of food eaten. So, hard to digest foods like protein and fats will trigger more lipase and protease release.

 

[WestCoaster]

[ moderator edit: post moved from Thiamine And Cancer ]

Again people need to be careful about posting studies, because here is a few that show sugar/glucose stimulates cancer tumor growth:

Sugar free, cancer free?
Is there a role for carbohydrate restriction in the treatment and prevention of cancer?
Sugars in diet and risk of cancer in the NIH-AARP Diet and Health Study

But when you look at where B1 is primarily found in the food sources that people typically eat: Bread, Pasta, Beans, Cereal, Oats, Bagels, Granola. Many of these sources either have sugar in them, or people top with sugary substances. So to draw any sort of comparison between B1 and cancer would be absolutely impossible unless they took say 2 people with completely equal metabolisms and blood sugars that reacted identical to food (which would be completely impossible). Also equal cell/tumor growth in the same area (also impossible) Then give both of the exogenous doses of Thiamine and Sugar/Glucose, at varying times and measuring just exactly how their cancer tumors react to each element. Then once that's done, they'd have to at least duplicate that about a 1000 times to even remotely be taken seriously.

Also keep in mind, the foods I listed that contain B1 are not all the foods rich in B1; I just posted the foods people typically eat in abundance. The average person eats cereal, oats, bread, or bagels in the morning. People also like to eat bread all throughout the day. People snack on granola. People also like to eat Pasta for lunch and dinner, and often it's store/restaurant bought, so there is sugar in it in one form or another. Vegetarians like to get their protein from beans

 

[Ella]

Maybe the work of Louis E. Kervran, while contested by mainstream scientific media ( but the research made by Kervran is still going on in Russia ), on biological transmutation are worth considering too.

Have these been translated to English?? Yes, so much we still don't know!!!

Keep in mind that the serotonin transporter, which disposes of serotonin, is sodium depended. I posted a few human studies showing that eating less than 5g sodium a day (which is about 10g - 12g salt) starts to increase serotonin in humans.

I also want to remind that sodium is required for "sodium/iodide symporter" (NIS) which transports two sodium cations (Na+) for each iodide anion (I−) into the cell.[7] NIS mediated uptake of iodide into follicular cells of the thyroid gland is the first step in the synthesis of thyroid hormone.[7].

In respect to cardiac muscle, sodium is required in the transport of calcium ions in and out of cells. Three sodium to one calcium molecule.

The movement of three Na+ ions is required to power the export of one Ca2+ ion against the greater than 10,000-fold concentration gradient between the cell interior (2 × 10−7 M) and cell exterior (2 × 10−3 M). As in other muscle cells, a rise in the intracellular Ca2+ concentration in cardiac muscle triggers contraction. Thus the operation of the Na+/Ca2+ antiporter lowers the cytosolic concentration of Ca2+ and reduces the strength of heart muscle contraction. The Na+/K+ ATPase in the plasma membrane of cardiac cells, as in other body cells, creates the Na+ concentration gradient used to power export of Ca2+ ions.

I think that the modern diet contains too much sodium via packaged foods and inadequate potassium. Gerson's patients were receiving plenty of sodium via the copious daily juices on the hour. However, I do remember coming across (can't remember where) that some of the patients had to have IV infusion of sodium chloride, their levels were dangerously low. I don't know whether any of you guys have witnessed someone in this state - it is not pretty.

Perhaps in Gerson's days, he may or may not have been aware of sodium's role as an usher of ions, amino acids, glucose etc., however, he observed that the restriction of sodium was beneficial in cancer. If cancer is such a hungry cell, restricting sodium would result in diminished nutrient uptake for the cancer cell. Peat says that cells can reach out into extracellular fluid and grab nutrients as required which is where I get lost. I need a thorough understanding of Ling's Association Induction Hypothesis.

The Association-Induction Hypothesis
Heir to the faulted old protoplasm concept, the association-induction hypothesis is a unifying theory of all living phenomena. Introduced half a century ago, the theory has been tested widely and verified without major setback. Five books respectively published in 1962, 1984, 1992, 2001 and 2013 as well as over 200 articles chronicle the details. In this theory, the smallest unit of life is not the cell but a tiny structure called nano-protoplasm unit (NPU). Each NPU can exist in one of two alternative states: (1) In the resting living state, all the major components including water, protein and the potassium ion (K+) are not free (as widely taught in textbooks) but physically and electronically connected directly or indirectly to all the other components. (2) In the active living state, water and K+ are set free (transiently.) Each NPU contains, as a rule, only one single protein molecule specific to its kind of NPU. A typical NPU from the mature human red blood cell is described by the formula: (Hb)1(H2O)7000(K+)20(ATP)1. Hb stands for the characteristic protein, hemoglobin. The numerical subscript attached to each bracketed item refers to the number of that item in one NPU. Bulk-phase water polarized and oriented by the fully extended protein partially excludes large hydrated ions like Na+. Thus in most living cells like muscle, nerve and red blood cell with a single type of cell membrane, it is superfluous to postulate a sodium pump to keep the cell level of Na+ low. Dynamically structured water does it perfectly without continued energy expenditure, which rigorous examinations proved beyond what the Law of Conservation of Energy permits. The end product of all energy metabolisms is adenosine tri-phosphate or for short, ATP (, which does not contain high usable energy as once widely but erroneously believed). As the major control agent or principal cardinal adsorbent, ATP plays a central role in the control of all living phenomena. Like all cardinal adsorbents, ATP achieves its control by means of a combination of both short-range electronic effect and falling-domino-like long-range effect. In broad terms, life comprises being alive and engaging in life activities. ATP’s continued binding as such onto the NPU keeps alive the NPU as well as the ladder of all the increasingly larger living structures like cells, organs and organisms built upon the foundation of vast number of NPU’s. To show how small an NPU is, I may mention that each single red blood cell contains about 300,000,000 NPU’s. Reversible ATP disappearance spells life activity. Irreversibility of similar vanishing of ATP leads to death.
Gilbert N. Ling

It seems I have a lot of reading to do because I don't know anyone who is teaching Ling's work. I have a feeling that Ray has read them all and is the reason he may have an alternative perspective than those of us trained in the traditional and the naturopathic sciences.

BTW. Has anyone kept upwith the upright MRI technology?

Fonar MRI - Maker of the Upright Multi-Position MRI

Inventor of the MRI denied the 2003 Nobel Prize in Medicine

 

[Ella]

I just wanted to add Dr Mercola's latest interview on the treatment of cancer and the ketogenic diet. I know this is a big promo for his latest book, however, the case studies presented are quite remarkable. There is no denying that the ketogenic diet is providing benefits. If Gerson's therapy did not restrict fruits (sugars) but restricted all fats, then is there something that were are missing here? If the fats were fuelling the cancer growth why is the restriction of sugar able to achieve these remarkable outcomes?



Nicholas Gonzalez, recommended specific diets (Kelley) for specific cancers and he disagreed with Charlotte on certain areas. Like Ray he was against any type of seed and flaxseed oil was definetely to be out of the diet. Yet he too was successful with his treatment. Gonzalez was also critical of the ketogenic diet; having worked with Atkins. In his interview (below), Nick accuses Seyfried of being a PHD and not a physician working at the cold hard front of cancer treatment.



Ketogenic diets are high fat, moderate protein and low carbs. What if the reason Atkins diet failed was due to the protein and perhaps moderate protein is still too high. Mercola is alluding that Paleo diet might be setting people up for a higher risk of cancer. All members of this forum already know this, other wise we would not be here. Really, pissed off with Mercola because he has been a long time champion of LC and has terrified everyone from eating fruit because of his phobia of diabetes. OK, if we are removing animals derived foods to lower protein, increasing fat, what is the rest of the diet going to be made off.??? I think we are heading for more pathological eating again.

Where Ray is cleverer than this and points out that it is those inflammatory amino acids that are the drivers of carcinogenesis. While glycine drives carcinogenesis in the opposite direction - restores respiration.

Japanese Scientists Reverse Ageing in Human Cell Lines

Hoping Andrew Murray (KMUD) presses Ray on addressing these questions that are confounding all of us.

 

[burtlancast]

You trust Gonzalez?
The guy can't even say the truth about who invented coffee enemas.

William Koch confirmed cancer patients can't digest meat; it sits in their intestines where bacterias putrefies it, then it poisons the body.
They even naturally reject it and feel bad when ingesting it.

Gonzalez based himself on Kelley, who came out with his modified Gerson diet. I have yet to see the scientific evidence meat eating for cancer patients is based upon.

 

[Ella]

You trust Gonzalez?

It is hard to know who to trust and frankly, I don't trust anyone in this business. I have seen impressive results coming out of India where traditional wholistic approaches of detoxification of heavy metals and environmental chemicals, natural organic food, vitamin, supplements, spiritual work etc combined with natural cancer therapies - not chemo.

William Koch confirmed cancer patients can't digest meat; it sits in their intestines where bacterias putrefies it, then it poisons the body.
They even naturally reject it and feel bad when ingesting it.

I totally agree here in regards to meat. Meat does not belong in the diet especially in a cancer environment. However, I was been told by practitioners how surprised they were that consuming around 1 dozen egg yolks was able to resolve cancers such as Leukemia; so I think Nick may be right here. Kelley tried his Gerson type diet on his wife and made her worse. He found she needed more animal- derived foods like red meat, saturated fat and low carb. This is why Gerson therapy had a cure rate of around 35%.

Most people are deficient in the alkaline minerals required for the production of alkaline pancreatic juices. Meat requires lots of HCL for digestion in the stomach which needs to be neutralised by pancreatic juices. This places a huge demand on body reserves of these alkaline minerals. The same can be said for fatty acids. A body that has high levels of fatty acids will also place heavy demands on the body's alkaline mineral reserves.

 

[haidut]

I just wanted to add Dr Mercola's latest interview on the treatment of cancer and the ketogenic diet. I know this is a big promo for his latest book, however, the case studies presented are quite remarkable. There is no denying that the ketogenic diet is providing benefits. If Gerson's therapy did not restrict fruits (sugars) but restricted all fats, then is there something that were are missing here? If the fats were fuelling the cancer growth why is the restriction of sugar able to achieve these remarkable outcomes?



Nicholas Gonzalez, recommended specific diets (Kelley) for specific cancers and he disagreed with Charlotte on certain areas. Like Ray he was against any type of seed and flaxseed oil was definetely to be out of the diet. Yet he too was successful with his treatment. Gonzalez was also critical of the ketogenic diet; having worked with Atkins. In his interview (below), Nick accuses Seyfried of being a PHD and not a physician working at the cold hard front of cancer treatment.



Ketogenic diets are high fat, moderate protein and low carbs. What if the reason Atkins diet failed was due to the protein and perhaps moderate protein is still too high. Mercola is alluding that Paleo diet might be setting people up for a higher risk of cancer. All members of this forum already know this, other wise we would not be here. Really, pissed off with Mercola because he has been a long time champion of LC and has terrified everyone from eating fruit because of his phobia of diabetes. OK, if we are removing animals derived foods to lower protein, increasing fat, what is the rest of the diet going to be made off.??? I think we are heading for more pathological eating again.

Where Ray is cleverer than this and points out that it is those inflammatory amino acids that are the drivers of carcinogenesis. While glycine drives carcinogenesis in the opposite direction - restores respiration.

Japanese Scientists Reverse Ageing in Human Cell Lines

Hoping Andrew Murray (KMUD) presses Ray on addressing these questions that are confounding all of us.

I would look at the studies below before jumping on the ketogenic diet for cancer. Some of the most promising drugs lately are FAS inhibitors, FAO inhibitors, or lipolysis inhibitors. A high fat diet will negate most of the effects of these drugs.
Cancer Addiction To Fat Confirmed; Niacinamide As Possible Treatment
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...its-oxidation-drives-cancer-metastasis.14229/
Achilles Heel Of Cancer Found - Its Addiction To Fat

Cancer cells use amino acids to convert them to sugar and then use the sugar to synthesize fat and then oxidize that fat. Given how inefficient that process is energetically, it explains some of the reasons (besides inflammation) for cachexia - a person restricting sugar will quickly lose muscle mass and fat in order to drive that inefficient process of fat synthesis.