Androsterone - Liquid Androsterone For Lab/R&D

[haidut]

Greetings,

Salutations @haidut, your reputation precedes you.

Subject shows signs of liking Andro.

Andro creates assertiveness.

Andro makes subject stronger, especially combined with Gonadin.

Andro or Andro + Gonadin makes females approach subject and find ways to have sex with subject.

However, Andro or Andro + Gonadin decreases subjects libido and erection hardness, which is unusual for DHT.

Also, finding the right balance between dosage and diet is hard for subject and results in stress responses or hyperstimulation, which can cause akward social interactions.

Subject tried high carb/sugar diet, but found this only helps at dosing times. Subject will next try high fat diet with carbs/sugar only at dosing.

Therefore, 1-2 drops of each is plenty after tissue saturation.

Subject uses it sublingually, orally, and topically (latter is best around females) for no more than 4 drops, although once the tissues are saturated it literally pours from the pores.

Great, thanks for the feedback! I would try to keep andro dose on the lower end. Most people probably do not need to use more than 5mg daily and majority who used it reported best effects from 2-3 drops daily.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks for the great feedback! The mental slowdown is likely due to both phytol and androsterone being GABA agonists. I don't think androsterone on its own would reduce erections, it is probably a matter of dosage and mixing the two. Most people report positive results with 2-3 drops andro daily, which you seemed to experience as well.

Actually @ecstatichamster reported this and a few others have had bad experiences too (like shrinking balls, less libido..etc..). Don't people who use dht compounds in super high doses get actually high libido? There was even a study showing complete estrogens suppression from dht and no reported side effects from men. Hell some people got tanned from androsterone, so perhaps as Ray says, when intermediate metabolites are used it can have widespread unpredictable effects?
I'llstate it again, I know nothing about biology (readers should know), but isn"t there a possibility androsterone could lower dht for some if the body senses the androsterone ( a dht metabolite afaik) is present in large quantities?

 

[haidut]

Actually @ecstatichamster reported this and a few others have had bad experiences too (like shrinking balls, less libido..etc..). Don't people who use dht compounds in super high doses get actually high libido? There was even a study showing complete estrogens suppression from dht and no reported side effects from men. Hell some people got tanned from androsterone, so perhaps as Ray says, when intermediate metabolites are used it can have widespread unpredictable effects?
I'llstate it again, I know nothing about biology (readers should know), but isn"t there a possibility androsterone could lower dht for some if the body senses the androsterone ( a dht metabolite afaik) is present in large quantities?

DHT in sufficient doses also lowers libido. People on the forum who used the Andractim and other gels reported this several times. If estrogen is suppressed too much it will affect libido.
I don't think androsterone suppresses DHT but it may suppress T synthesis in high doses via feedback mechanism. DHT does the same. That's why when people asked Peat about using DHT he used to respond with "adding a little DHEA/pregnenolone would limit risk of side effects of DHT" even though he did not specify what those side effects would be. He gave the same recommendation to people asking about using T.
When I use androsterone I always stack it with Pansterone and have never experienced libido-lowering of joint pain.

 

[BlackSkull]

DHT in sufficient doses also lowers libido. People on the forum who used the Andractim and other gels reported this several times. If estrogen is suppressed too much it will affect libido.
I don't think androsterone suppresses DHT but it may suppress T synthesis in high doses via feedback mechanism. DHT does the same. That's why when people asked Peat about using DHT he used to respond with "adding a little DHEA/pregnenolone would limit risk of side effects of DHT" even though he did not specify what those side effects would be. He gave the same recommendation to people asking about using T.
When I use androsterone I always stack it with Pansterone and have never experienced libido-lowering of joint pain.

@Wagner83, @haidut

The reactions are individual.

The key is finding the perfect ratio between DHT and Estrogen.

Subjects need good Estrogens for normal functioning.

Therefore, you want to figure out how to maximize subjects Test and then figure out how to get it to convert to just enough good Estrogen and just enough DHT for proper sexual functioning.

My theory still stands that sexual arousal occurs precisely at the moment Test converts to DHT and good Estrogens. If it wasnt, then all subjects would be aroused all the time. And if subjects are constantly aroused then congrats, youve figured out the formula or just took Viagra.

However, the formula changes if your desired outcome changes.

For example, if subject wants to lose body mass, then tanking Estrogen would be ok, since it builds muscle and stores fat and water.

Using high dose DHT acts similar to thyroid here in that it is very stimulating and increases metabolism.

I believe this is why @haidut created Pansterone and CortNon, would you concur @haidut?

The reason I chose Gonadin over Pansterone is because my body reacts best to compounds that maximize ENDOgenous functioning, so I always start there as I think it is also the more holistic approach.

 

[haidut]

@Wagner83, @haidut

The reactions are individual.

The key is finding the perfect ratio between DHT and Estrogen.

Subjects need good Estrogens for normal functioning.

Therefore, you want to figure out how to maximize subjects Test and then figure out how to get it to convert to just enough good Estrogen and just enough DHT for proper sexual functioning.

My theory still stands that sexual arousal occurs precisely at the moment Test converts to DHT and good Estrogens. If it wasnt, then all subjects would be aroused all the time. And if subjects are constantly aroused then congrats, youve figured out the formula or just took Viagra.

However, the formula changes if your desired outcome changes.

For example, if subject wants to lose body mass, then tanking Estrogen would be ok, since it builds muscle and stores fat and water.

Using high dose DHT acts similar to thyroid here in that it is very stimulating and increases metabolism.

I believe this is why @haidut created Pansterone and CortNon, would you concur @haidut?

The reason I chose Gonadin over Pansterone is because my body reacts best to compounds that maximize ENDOgenous functioning, so I always start there as I think it is also the more holistic approach.

True, the Pansterone would be more for building muscle and CortiNon more for blocking catabolism. A stronger androgen like androsterone staked with Pansterone will probably increase protein synthesis even more.

 

[Constatine]

Actually @ecstatichamster reported this and a few others have had bad experiences too (like shrinking balls, less libido..etc..). Don't people who use dht compounds in super high doses get actually high libido? There was even a study showing complete estrogens suppression from dht and no reported side effects from men. Hell some people got tanned from androsterone, so perhaps as Ray says, when intermediate metabolites are used it can have widespread unpredictable effects?
I'llstate it again, I know nothing about biology (readers should know), but isn"t there a possibility androsterone could lower dht for some if the body senses the androsterone ( a dht metabolite afaik) is present in large quantities?

I think some of the libido suppression is from a hypermetabolic state. You have to have some weight on you to handle androsterone.

 

[Wagner83]

True, the Pansterone would be more for building muscle and CortiNon more for blocking catabolism. A stronger androgen like androsterone staked with Pansterone will probably increase protein synthesis even more.

??? Did you change your mind since the following thread?
Structural Requirements For Optimal Anticatabolic (Anabolic) Steroid

My own personal experimentation with glucocorticoid antagonists like pregnenolone-16a-carbonitrile, RU486, progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA led me to the theory that there is no such as anabolic hormones, only anticatabolic ones, and the "anabolic" effects from T and AAS are actually the result of their antagonism to cortisol (and potentially estrogen). An old study I found makes the same claim, and highlights the well-known fact that muscle contains almost exclusively glucocorticoid receptors (GR), while androgen receptors (AR) are mostly expressed in tissues like prostate, gonads, brain and skin. Thus, if a steroid if a steroid is found to have an "anabolic" effect in muscle that is due almost exclusively to antagonism of GR. Steroids with strong androgenic effects would also have anabolic effects but those would be secondary to GR antagonism and reserved mostly for tissues with high expression of AR - i.e. prostate, gonads, sex organs, brian, etc.

 

[haidut]

??? Did you change your mind since the following thread?
Structural Requirements For Optimal Anticatabolic (Anabolic) Steroid

No, I have not. It's just that progesterone's pro-metabolic effects tend to limit its muscle-building potential. In women, progesterone seems to be more anabolic than males though. Nothing what I said above contradicts what I said in that other thread.

 

[BlackSkull]

True, the Pansterone would be more for building muscle and CortiNon more for blocking catabolism. A stronger androgen like androsterone staked with Pansterone will probably increase protein synthesis even more.

@haidut , if you take both together will they clash or work together?

To clarify, I mean take Pansterone + Andro on workout days, but CortNon + Andro on conditioning days to preserve mass - not 1 drop of each at the same time.

 

[BlackSkull]

I think some of the libido suppression is from a hypermetabolic state. You have to have some weight on you to handle androsterone.

@Constatine

Interesting point m8.

I am a heavyweight and not much fat though.

However, my normal metabolism could just be bollox and the increase takes me past my threshold.

 

[BlackSkull]

No, I have not. It's just that progesterone's pro-metabolic effects tend to limit its muscle-building potential. In women, progesterone seems to be more anabolic than males though. Noting what I said above contradicts what I said in that other thread.

@haidut , yeah this makes sense.

IMO Estrogen stores and Cortisol destroys.

High cortisol results in fat storage, but indirectly. Not because it is it’s direct function (unlike estrogen) but because it is catabolizing muscle for energy out of stress, so the body thinks it’s dying or starving, thus, stores fat for the long haul or emergencies.

Contrarily, being well fed and building mass boosts metabolism, but estrogen is required here.

Therefore, would you concur that unless someone can maintain caloric surplus, they should focus more on preventing catabolism with CortNon + Andro?

My thought here is that telling the body to build mass chemically, but not feeding it properly could be just as stressful.

 

[haidut]

@haidut , if you take both together will they clash or work together?

To clarify, I mean take Pansterone + Andro on workout days, but CortNon + Andro on conditioning days to preserve mass - not 1 drop of each at the same time.

I don't think they would clash. The regimen you mentioned sounds good. I suggested something similar in the thread below.
Structural Requirements For Optimal Anticatabolic (Anabolic) Steroid

 

[haidut]

@haidut , yeah this makes sense.

IMO Estrogen stores and Cortisol destroys.

High cortisol results in fat storage, but indirectly. Not because it is it’s direct function (unlike estrogen) but because it is catabolizing muscle for energy out of stress, so the body thinks it’s dying or starving, thus, stores fat for the long haul or emergencies.

Contrarily, being well fed and building mass boosts metabolism, but estrogen is required here.

Therefore, would you concur that unless someone can maintain caloric surplus, they should focus more on preventing catabolism with CortNon + Andro?

My thought here is that telling the body to build mass chemically, but not feeding it properly could be just as stressful.

I think estrogen's role is not really important in building muscle mass. High estrogen mostly results in fat and water retention, not real muscle gain. That's why more recent studies have started to measure "dry" weight gain as a better metric of steroid myotrophic effectiveness. By that metric, estrogen is pretty bad and fully reduced DHT-derivative androgens like Drostanolone and even more so oxandrolone are quite anabolic while at the same time they tank estrogen. IMO, estrogen is only needed for wound repair (which requires rapid proliferation) and libido, but even those two functions can be covered by much less estrogen then most people carry around. Estrogen also activates lipolysis and increases fatty acid oxidation, so it has a big role in the stress response. Cortisol does cause fat gain directly by antagonizing the effects of insulin, and also causing NAFLD. Cortisol also activates aromatase, so cortisol and estrogen go hand in hand.

 

[cyclops]

@haidut , if you take both together will they clash or work together?

To clarify, I mean take Pansterone + Andro on workout days, but CortNon + Andro on conditioning days to preserve mass - not 1 drop of each at the same time.

Why not just take some Andro + Pansterone + Progestene everyday. Is it really that important to have one day on pregnenolone and off progesterone and the next day on progesterone and off pregnenolone? Would it really make a difference vs taking it all at once?

 

[Wagner83]

No, I have not. It's just that progesterone's pro-metabolic effects tend to limit its muscle-building potential. In women, progesterone seems to be more anabolic than males though. Noting what I said above contradicts what I said in that other thread.

I was simply surprised as you seemed to agree with him when he stated (if I understood correctly) estrogens build muscles and then proceeded to agree pansterone would be more for building muscles while progesterone would be more for anti-catabolism, so I understood anti catabolism =/= muscles building. In the thread I linked to you explained there is no such difference.
It seems you cleared up those points now.

Why would something pro-metabolic slow down muscles building if calories are adequate?

 

[Blicero]

my rat has been using this with Pansterone (2 drops andr to 4 drops pan) and it made him feel like there was hot sand in his head. Awful feeling. Anyone know why this might be? Made him feel lethargic too, but not in fall into a deep sleep lethargic would make it seem ideal for bed. It was like a cranked up lethargy.

EDIT: i should add that he was also taking 5 drops Da-dhp later in the day--which makes him feel great and noticeably helped recover from the awful feeling of Andr/Pan, though he still felt crappy. Today stopped the andr/pan and took only the 5adhp and felt great.

I should note that the rat suffers from PFS and shows high estrogen markers (very diminished libido, ED, and even though he has always been rail thin, now carries a lot of pesky fat on his chest while his abs are fairly visible). Experimented with DIM in the past in attempt to metabolize the excess E and got a similar crappy feeling with awful headache that made sleep or basic functionality difficult. Could this be a side effect of burning this excess estrogen? Or a sign that he isn't flushing it out quickly enough (and thus reabsorbing it)?

 

[BlackSkull]

I think estrogen's role is not really important in building muscle mass. High estrogen mostly results in fat and water retention, not real muscle gain. That's why more recent studies have started to measure "dry" weight gain as a better metric of steroid myotrophic effectiveness. By that metric, estrogen is pretty bad and fully reduced DHT-derivative androgens like Drostanolone and even more so oxandrolone are quite anabolic while at the same time they tank estrogen. IMO, estrogen is only needed for wound repair (which requires rapid proliferation) and libido, but even those two functions can be covered by much less estrogen then most people carry around. Estrogen also activates lipolysis and increases fatty acid oxidation, so it has a big role in the stress response. Cortisol does cause fat gain directly by antagonizing the effects of insulin, and also causing NAFLD. Cortisol also activates aromatase, so cortisol and estrogen go hand in hand.

@haidut

Very interesting m8.

I think that fundamentally we agree, and you even taught me something new, so thank you.

HOWEVER, I think that it boils down to proper manipulation.

While I agree with your method stated above as ideal, i contend (for educational purposes) that Estrogen CAN assist in building muscle IF TWO things occur:

1) The estrogen is causing increased storage of water and nutrients
2) insulin/cortisol is regulated properly to force the nutrients INTO the muscle cells and not the fat cells

This would jam the muscle cell full, so that when it is damaged from training it is forced to split more.

However, you are correct and the supplement creatine is proof as it does the two things above without the bad stuff.

Theres a reason the bodybuilding community is moving away from estrogen based bulks, its effects are nasty.

 

[BlackSkull]

Why not just take some Andro + Pansterone + Progestene everyday. Is it really that important to have one day on pregnenolone and off progesterone and the next day on progesterone and off pregnenolone? Would it really make a difference vs taking it all at once?

@cyclops

The body works a certain way m8.

Bodybuilders separate their bulking and cutting on purpose, because they are opposing biochemistries.

People who try to burn fat and build muscle at the same time typically get mixed results UNLESS they are enhanced.

But even then, you have to shift your chemistry more in one direction (inline with the chemistry the training creates naturally) to reap the most benefits.

The new craze for burning fat and building muscle at the same time is intermittent fasting. However, when analyzed properly it is merely extreme cutting followed by extreme bulking, just on a very short-term basis, often daily.

In other words, you will never find a lean sumo wrestler or bulky marathon runner. The same idea applies to supplements. They must coordinate.

 

[BlackSkull]

my rat has been using this with Pansterone (2 drops andr to 4 drops pan) and it made him feel like there was hot sand in his head. Awful feeling. Anyone know why this might be? Made him feel lethargic too, but not in fall into a deep sleep lethargic would make it seem ideal for bed. It was like a cranked up lethargy.

EDIT: i should add that he was also taking 5 drops Da-dhp later in the day--which makes him feel great and noticeably helped recover from the awful feeling of Andr/Pan, though he still felt crappy. Today stopped the andr/pan and took only the 5adhp and felt great.

I should note that the rat suffers from PFS and shows high estrogen markers (very diminished libido, ED, and even though he has always been rail thin, now carries a lot of pesky fat on his chest while his abs are fairly visible). Experimented with DIM in the past in attempt to metabolize the excess E and got a similar crappy feeling with awful headache that made sleep or basic functionality difficult. Could this be a side effect of burning this excess estrogen? Or a sign that he isn't flushing it out quickly enough (and thus reabsorbing it)?

@Blicero

That is because it is working m8.

Anabolism without sufficient food intake creates lethargy. Your metabolism is sped up without the calories (energy) to match.

Eat more!! And definitely work out.

Best ask @haidut about the other stuff

 

[TreasureVibe]

About to start my rat on androsterone.

Does androsterone possess immune boosting abilities too?