bdawg

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Re: Negative feedback

Androsterone seems to lower androgen synthesis through activation of FXR, independently of the typical negative feedback loop (via GNRH/LH)

Bile acids and male fertility: From mouse to human?

View attachment 9209

@Koveras, transdermal androsterone should get metabolised on impact is what im thinking

Either to 5a-androstanedione (which then converts to DHT) or other metabolites (see below)

The Metabolism of 5α-Dihydrotestosterone and Androsterone by Skin

Or to androstanediol via skin 17 beta HSD which also converts to DHT

Thoughts?
 

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Hans

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I don't think activating FXR would inhibit androgen synthesis, else coffee, taurine, saturated fats, etc would lower testosterone, yet it has a positive effect on androgen synthesis.
 
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haidut

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Re: Negative feedback

Androsterone seems to lower androgen synthesis through activation of FXR, independently of the typical negative feedback loop (via GNRH/LH)

Bile acids and male fertility: From mouse to human?

View attachment 9209

Interesting, thanks!
Androsterone and other strong androgens like DHT lower androgen synthesis mostly through the negative feedback mechanisms in the Leydig cells, as they express the androgen receptor mostly for that reason (i.e. sensing high circulating androgen levels). Usually, 5-AR reduced androgens do not act on the pituitary much unless unphysiologically high doses are taken but even then it probably takes 15mg-20mg DHT (which is a very high dose) to cause a much milder pituitary suppression than the same dose T.
 

Wagner83

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Interesting, thanks!
Androsterone and other strong androgens like DHT lower androgen synthesis mostly through the negative feedback mechanisms in the Leydig cells, as they express the androgen receptor mostly for that reason (i.e. sensing high circulating androgen levels). Usually, 5-AR reduced androgens do not act on the pituitary much unless unphysiologically high doses are taken but even then it probably takes 15mg-20mg DHT (which is a very high dose) to cause a much milder pituitary suppression than the same dose T.
Does that mean you think the information Koveras found is irrelevant in vivo given the existence of the negative feedback mechanism you mentioned? So that the latter would prevail, basically?
 
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haidut

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Does that mean you think the information Koveras found is irrelevant in vivo given the existence of the negative feedback mechanism you mentioned? So that the latter would prevail, basically?

In healthy males, the daily androsterone output is probably more than 10mg as it is the final pathway for all androgens. It it is having a negative effect on steroidogenesis it is most likely from conversion back into DHT, as per the study I sent you a few weeks ago via PM. In my experience exogenous androsterone in doses of <10mg does not have a suppressive effect and by inhibiting aromatase may even increase androgens like T. The tanking of libido from higher doses is probably due to this aromatase inhibition.
 

Hans

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Here's my testimony so far: I got androsterone a while back and started with 1mg every other day, but experienced instantaneous and intense irritation, so I dropped it for a while as I also first wanted to experience the full effect of gonadin.

I recently started using it again, so it's been about 2 weeks now. At first I only used a drop on each nipple, every day for about a week and then 3 drops for two days, then 5 drops for 1 day and now I'm going to stick to 4 drops daily.

Effects:
  • No more agitation, but definitely an increase in assertiveness (such as not tolerating inconvenient stuff)
  • Increase in energy, alertness, mental clarity and focus (definitely kept me awake when I took it a couple of times before bed)
  • Poofy nipples are a thing of the past, even when I'm getting hot, or when they are completely relaxed
  • Can't say I noticed reduced estrogen or cortisol effects (such as less water retention) though, except maybe better vision and less eye floaters
  • Slight increase in vascularity and muscle tone after a few days, but might also be my diet. Although, my muscles do feel fuller and harder.
  • A slight noticeable increase in strength
  • Definitely helping me to maintain/increase strength and size while cutting
  • Stress reaction when I don't take it with enough food
  • Increase in temperate (5 drops made me get uncomfortably hot)
  • Definite increase in beard growth speed and density
  • More chest hair growth (more like a side effect in my opinion though ;P )
  • Faster nail growth (wouldn't have noticed if Haidut didn't mention it lol)
  • Increase in libido
All in all I would say it's a great product. When ordering again I'll combine it with pansterone to see the effect.
I'll give more updates if I notice anything additional.
 

Wagner83

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In healthy males, the daily androsterone output is probably more than 10mg as it is the final pathway for all androgens. It it is having a negative effect on steroidogenesis it is most likely from conversion back into DHT, as per the study I sent you a few weeks ago via PM. In my experience exogenous androsterone in doses of <10mg does not have a suppressive effect and by inhibiting aromatase may even increase androgens like T. The tanking of libido from higher doses is probably due to this aromatase inhibition.
OK thanks, what about the shrunken balls people have reported? Is balls size a good marker for suppression? There are some so-called androgenic markers which I am not always convinced by, like depth of voice which seems to have many other causes, although when dissolved in dmso people have reported fuller/deeper voice on androsterone or the other one. Depth Of Voice (and Hormones)
 
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haidut

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OK thanks, what about the shrunken balls people have reported? Is balls size a good marker for suppression? There are some so-called androgenic markers which I am not always convinced by, like depth of voice which seems to have many other causes, although when dissolved in dmso people have reported fuller/deeper voice on androsterone or the other one. Depth Of Voice (and Hormones)

It is hard for me to judge effects based on reported ball size. I guess in somebody with already high DHT it is possible to have this effect. Even if it does have such an effect, lowering the dose a bit or adding some pregnenolone should reverse it. I think Selye was really on to something when he said pregnenolone should be used with all end-point steroids to both potentiate their effects and protect from their side effects (which included suppression).
 

Koveras

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Thanks. If bile acids affect androgens levels negatively I wonder how relevant it is for the use turmeric, taurine and dietary fat.

I think turmeric/curcumin has been shown to raise testosterone in some modes and lower it in others. Believe it depends on the context being studied.
 

Koveras

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@Koveras, transdermal androsterone should get metabolised on impact is what im thinking

Either to 5a-androstanedione (which then converts to DHT) or other metabolites (see below)

The Metabolism of 5α-Dihydrotestosterone and Androsterone by Skin

Or to androstanediol via skin 17 beta HSD which also converts to DHT

Thoughts?

Don’t know enough with certainty to make that determination - but some of its beneficial metabolic effects are attributed to androsterone itself, and some specifically to that FXR activation
 

Koveras

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I don't think activating FXR would inhibit androgen synthesis, else coffee, taurine, saturated fats, etc would lower testosterone, yet it has a positive effect on androgen synthesis.

All of those compounds have many different effects. It’s certainly possible that one effect could lower androgen synthesis while others promote it. The net effect would be the summation.
 

TripleOG

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@Salmonamb nice write up. Few questions:

1) DMSO or SFA esters?

2)
At first I only used a drop on each nipple, every day for about a week and then 3 drops for two days, then 5 drops for 1 day and now I'm going to stick to 4 drops daily.

When you say 4 drops daily, is that 4 drops per nipple or 4 drops total (2 drops per nipple)?

3) What other hormone supplements, if any, were you taking during this period?
 

Wagner83

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Over the past 3 or 4 months I’ve been experimenting with the DMSO version of androsterone and gotten some interesting results. (This doesn’t include an earlier experiment 6 months ago that only lasted a few weeks.) Over that time I slowly ramped up the dosage from 1 drop to 6 drops per day, applied to the legs, 2 in the afternoon, 4 at bedtime. During the experiment the diet was not restricted and there was no exercise beyond daily activity.

At this point sleep is better and dreams are more active; mood is better and irritability is down (this was a concern and the reason for the slow titration); concentration and recall seem to be better; voice is deeper and richer; testes are larger; ejaculate has more volume and it’s thicker; erections are stronger and, when standing, are now north of horizontal; libido is good, though unchanged; weight has gone up by 2 or 3 pounds, but at the same time abdominal fat has gone down and pants are looser.

None of these effects are unwelcome, but the last is particularly welcome since I interpret it, perhaps wrongly, as replenishment of organ, bone, and muscle tissue, and a reduction in fat tissue. Note that I’m an older guy so women and younger guys may find different effects. But at least for older guys with a solid nutritional foundation, I would recommend it highly.

I live with all females so I’d be interested to hear if anyone has conducted any similar experiments with women, and what the results were.
Are you still using it?
 

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Hans

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@Salmonamb nice write up. Few questions:

1) DMSO or SFA esters?

2)

When you say 4 drops daily, is that 4 drops per nipple or 4 drops total (2 drops per nipple)?

3) What other hormone supplements, if any, were you taking during this period?
Hey man.

1) The SFA one
2) 1 drop per nipple and the other two on other places, sometimes on my lower abs, sometimes wrist, sometimes nut sack.
3) I'm only using andro, vitamin K2 (1 drop on each knee), zinc (22mg) and sometimes oxidal and that's it. So the effects are definitely coming from andro as I have been using zinc, K2 and oxidal for a while before starting to use andro.
 
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haidut

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Here's my testimony so far: I got androsterone a while back and started with 1mg every other day, but experienced instantaneous and intense irritation, so I dropped it for a while as I also first wanted to experience the full effect of gonadin.

I recently started using it again, so it's been about 2 weeks now. At first I only used a drop on each nipple, every day for about a week and then 3 drops for two days, then 5 drops for 1 day and now I'm going to stick to 4 drops daily.

Effects:
  • No more agitation, but definitely an increase in assertiveness (such as not tolerating inconvenient stuff)
  • Increase in energy, alertness, mental clarity and focus (definitely kept me awake when I took it a couple of times before bed)
  • Poofy nipples are a thing of the past, even when I'm getting hot, or when they are completely relaxed
  • Can't say I noticed reduced estrogen or cortisol effects (such as less water retention) though, except maybe better vision and less eye floaters
  • Slight increase in vascularity and muscle tone after a few days, but might also be my diet. Although, my muscles do feel fuller and harder.
  • A slight noticeable increase in strength
  • Definitely helping me to maintain/increase strength and size while cutting
  • Stress reaction when I don't take it with enough food
  • Increase in temperate (5 drops made me get uncomfortably hot)
  • Definite increase in beard growth speed and density
  • More chest hair growth (more like a side effect in my opinion though ;P )
  • Faster nail growth (wouldn't have noticed if Haidut didn't mention it lol)
  • Increase in libido
All in all I would say it's a great product. When ordering again I'll combine it with pansterone to see the effect.
I'll give more updates if I notice anything additional.

Amazing! Thanks so much for the feedback. Do you notice the pheromone effect others mentioned? Like males being aggressive and females being "friendly" around you?
 

Hans

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Amazing! Thanks so much for the feedback. Do you notice the pheromone effect others mentioned? Like males being aggressive and females being "friendly" around you?
Both my wife and I experienced the andro as a sweet-musky smell (in a good way). However I can't say for sure that I've noticed an increase in aggression with men and friendliness with women, but I have noticed that certain guys are more friendly towards me, whereas others are more in a total avoidance mode.
But, from my experience, I think that the effect that andro has on personal conduct (more assertive, confident yet a bit more considerate and kind), plays a bigger role than just the pheromones alone. Which then results in others acting/reacting accordingly (IMO).
But as far as other women are concerned, I can't say I've noticed anything different because most women tend to be somewhat uncomfortably 'threatened' and mostly avoiding around my wife, even though she's friendly, it must be her assertiveness/self-confidence. But even when she's not with me I don't experience any unusual 'friendliness', probably because I don't give opportunity for it. But my wife is always friendly with me :D
 
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BlackSkull

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Greetings,

Salutations @haidut, your reputation precedes you.

Subject shows signs of liking Andro.

Andro creates assertiveness.

Andro makes subject stronger, especially combined with Gonadin.

Andro or Andro + Gonadin makes females approach subject and find ways to have sex with subject.

However, Andro or Andro + Gonadin decreases subjects libido and erection hardness, which is unusual for DHT.

Also, finding the right balance between dosage and diet is hard for subject and results in stress responses or hyperstimulation, which can cause akward social interactions.

Subject tried high carb/sugar diet, but found this only helps at dosing times. Subject will next try high fat diet with carbs/sugar only at dosing.

Therefore, 1-2 drops of each is plenty after tissue saturation.

Subject uses it sublingually, orally, and topically (latter is best around females) for no more than 4 drops, although once the tissues are saturated it literally pours from the pores.
 

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