5α-DHP - Liquid 5α-Dihydroprogesterone For Lab/R&D

[member 6316]

In my personal experience, it had more effects on muscle than mind. It felt a bit like androsterone but was calming and did not raise temps like androsterone does. Also, effect lasted longer topically, I'd say at least 6-7 hours.

didn't you say 5a-dhp lasted like 72 hours in a previous post?

 

[haidut]

didn't you say 5a-dhp lasted like 72 hours in a previous post?

I think I said this about 11-keto DHT. The 5a-DHP may also have long half life, but by 6-7 hours I meant my subjective experience of the effects.

 

[member 6316]

I think I said this about 11-keto DHT. The 5a-DHP may also have long half life, but by 6-7 hours I meant my subjective experience of the effects.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...erone-liquid-5a-dhp-for-lab-r-d.13743/page-22

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...erone-liquid-5a-dhp-for-lab-r-d.13743/page-22

That post refers to the mental effects, and here I meant the muscle ones.

 

[GENE FIALKOFF]

Aside from knees - for general daily use, I think I understand it would replace progesterone and adrosterone
what about using it w/ pregnenolone?

 

[haidut]

Aside from knees - for general daily use, I think I understand it would replace progesterone and adrosterone
what about using it w/ pregnenolone?

You can certainly combine it with pregnenolone. I don't think there is any steroid that cannot be combined with pregnenolone, except possibly estrogen as it is antagonized by pregnenolone.

 

[MCurtone]

@haidut - I really need your help. Quick backstory that I posted earlier. Took 5a DHP for the last 3-4 weeks and felt great. Happier, calmer, etc. I was taking 3-6 drops per day and sometimes experimenting with 18 drops. For the last 1.5 weeks, I have been feeling incredibly fatigued and brain fog for the last couple days. I have not been feeling depressed, its more like a zombie feeling with zero motivation to do anything or even use my imagination. You mentioned too much GABA agonism can cause really low cortisol. Can you please explain? I also just got blood work back and am posting below. I have a follow up in 2 days and this could explain the fatigue. I have not taken any 5a DHP for the last 3/4 days but still feel this insane fatigue. Please look at these screenshots and tell me your thoughts, and what you feel should also be tested on my next work. I have a good libido and erections are not an issue at all, just very fatigued, zombie-like with no motivation or inspiration. Even if I sleep for 12 hours I feel I need more. I was also taking clomid and nolvadex for 3 weeks and stopped 1 week before these blood tests. I started the 5adhp about half way into the clomid and nolvadex run. I know nolvadex can cause fatigue, I've had it before but recovered fine several months ago when I used it. It's been at least 2 weeks since my last dose of them. Sorry for the wall of text, just concerned and I feel advice from you can really help me understand whats going on and how to fix it.

 

[haidut]

@haidut - I really need your help. Quick backstory that I posted earlier. Took 5a DHP for the last 3-4 weeks and felt great. Happier, calmer, etc. I was taking 3-6 drops per day and sometimes experimenting with 18 drops. For the last 1.5 weeks, I have been feeling incredibly fatigued and brain fog for the last couple days. I have not been feeling depressed, its more like a zombie feeling with zero motivation to do anything or even use my imagination. You mentioned too much GABA agonism can cause really low cortisol. Can you please explain? I also just got blood work back and am posting below. I have a follow up in 2 days and this could explain the fatigue. I have not taken any 5a DHP for the last 3/4 days but still feel this insane fatigue. Please look at these screenshots and tell me your thoughts, and what you feel should also be tested on my next work. I have a good libido and erections are not an issue at all, just very fatigued, zombie-like with no motivation or inspiration. Even if I sleep for 12 hours I feel I need more. I was also taking clomid and nolvadex for 3 weeks and stopped 1 week before these blood tests. I started the 5adhp about half way into the clomid and nolvadex run. I know nolvadex can cause fatigue, I've had it before but recovered fine several months ago when I used it. It's been at least 2 weeks since my last dose of them. Sorry for the wall of text, just concerned and I feel advice from you can really help me understand whats going on and how to fix it.

I would stop taking anything that is not prescribed by a doctor and have at least 10 days off. If possible, I would stop the clomid and nolvadex too. I doubt this is caused by the 5a-DHP as on its own it has not been reported to cause these issues, even though GABA agonists can cause fatigue. But the combination of the clomid/nolvadex and a progestogen has not been studied much, so it is better not to risk it. The combination of 5a-DHP and clomid/nolvadex could be pushing estrogen too low, and fatigue is a common side effects of both AI and SERM drugs.
As far as the blood results, aside from deferring to the doctor, the high B12 stands out and Peat said it is a common findings in SIBO, which can also cause fatigue. Some of the CBC values are out of range, so if you can do an iron panel with ferritin, iron saturation, transferrin, and serum iron that may help elucidate the out of range values.
Just my 2c.

 

[MCurtone]

I would stop taking anything that is not prescribed by a doctor and have at least 10 days off. If possible, I would stop the clomid and nolvadex too. I doubt this is caused by the 5a-DHP as on its own it has not been reported to cause these issues, even though GABA agonists can cause fatigue. But the combination of the clomid/nolvadex and a progestogen has not been studied much, so it is better not to risk it. The combination of 5a-DHP and clomid/nolvadex could be pushing estrogen too low, and fatigue is a common side effects of both AI and SERM drugs.
As far as the blood results, aside from deferring to the doctor, the high B12 stands out and Peat said it is a common findings in SIBO, which can also cause fatigue. Some of the CBC values are out of range, so if you can do an iron panel with ferritin, iron saturation, transferrin, and serum iron that may help elucidate the out of range values.
Just my 2c.

Thank you so much. I was thinking that estrogen could be getting suppressed too intensely as well, especially at the receptor level. The fatigue is similar to when I took too much aromasin, a potent AI, but this is lasting quite long.

I never knew about the b12 and SIBO. I am currently on a fully raw carnivore diet and was having amazing results the last 5 months. Blood work from 2 months ago showed normal b12 but I literally eat beef liver and red meat every day of the week, so I think that's why my B12 is a little high. I'll research b12 and SIBO on peat. I know PFS sufferers tend to have gut issues and I definitely did as well. Thanks so much for your 2cents. Helps put a mans mind at ease. Only time will tell I guess. It takes time for lower estrogen to come back up, but I feel none of this explains the low MCV, MCH and high RDW. @haidut if you have any more thoughts, by all means please let me know. Just want to feel better asap. How would gonadin fair here? What should I do if there's too much estrogenic suppression? I've been off the clomid and nolva for 1-2 weeks now and my last dose of 5a dhp was 3/4 days ago.

 

[haidut]

Thank you so much. I was thinking that estrogen could be getting suppressed too intensely as well, especially at the receptor level. The fatigue is similar to when I took too much aromasin, a potent AI, but this is lasting quite long.

I never knew about the b12 and SIBO. I am currently on a fully raw carnivore diet and was having amazing results the last 5 months. Blood work from 2 months ago showed normal b12 but I literally eat beef liver and red meat every day of the week, so I think that's why my B12 is a little high. I'll research b12 and SIBO on peat. I know PFS sufferers tend to have gut issues and I definitely did as well. Thanks so much for your 2cents. Helps put a mans mind at ease. Only time will tell I guess. It takes time for lower estrogen to come back up, but I feel none of this explains the low MCV, MCH and high RDW. @haidut if you have any more thoughts, by all means please let me know. Just want to feel better asap. How would gonadin fair here? What should I do if there's too much estrogenic suppression? I've been off the clomid and nolva for 1-2 weeks now and my last dose of 5a dhp was 3/4 days ago.

If it is due to low estrogen then simply stopping all supplements for 7-10 days should restore previous steroid levels. As far as the MCV, MCH and RDW - I suggested doing an iron panel. Iron deficiency or excess can cause such value sometimes.

 

[Vinero]

Thank you so much. I was thinking that estrogen could be getting suppressed too intensely as well, especially at the receptor level. The fatigue is similar to when I took too much aromasin, a potent AI, but this is lasting quite long.

I never knew about the b12 and SIBO. I am currently on a fully raw carnivore diet and was having amazing results the last 5 months. Blood work from 2 months ago showed normal b12 but I literally eat beef liver and red meat every day of the week, so I think that's why my B12 is a little high. I'll research b12 and SIBO on peat. I know PFS sufferers tend to have gut issues and I definitely did as well. Thanks so much for your 2cents. Helps put a mans mind at ease. Only time will tell I guess. It takes time for lower estrogen to come back up, but I feel none of this explains the low MCV, MCH and high RDW. @haidut if you have any more thoughts, by all means please let me know. Just want to feel better asap. How would gonadin fair here? What should I do if there's too much estrogenic suppression? I've been off the clomid and nolva for 1-2 weeks now and my last dose of 5a dhp was 3/4 days ago.

I know what causes your fatigue. Why are you on a raw carnivore diet? You do realize that Ray Peat thinks carbs and sugars are favorable to eat right? Not eating carbs leads to hypothyroidism which explains your fatigue. Also eating beef liver and beef daily is way to much iron, which Ray Peat says is also dangerous and can supress your immune system and increase bacterial growth. I think taking supplements like 5a-DHP can help to shift the hormones in the right direction of high thyroid, high progesterone, low estrogen etc. but you need a good diet to make 5a-DHP and other supplements work.

 

[MCurtone]

I know what causes your fatigue. Why are you on a raw carnivore diet? You do realize that Ray Peat thinks carbs and sugars are favorable to eat right? Not eating carbs leads to hypothyroidism which explains your fatigue. Also eating beef liver and beef daily is way to much iron, which Ray Peat says is also dangerous and can supress your immune system and increase bacterial growth. I think taking supplements like 5a-DHP can help to shift the hormones in the right direction of high thyroid, high progesterone, low estrogen etc. but you need a good diet to make 5a-DHP and other supplements work.

I understand where you are coming from, but believe me, it's not the diet. I started this diet back in January 2018 and my results have been amazing. My strength in the gym, my overall glow of health, which family and friends commented on and energy levels really increased. This just started happening when I was using the clomid, nolvadex and heavy doses of 5a-dhp in the last 4 weeks. Carbs are not necessary for human life. The human body ensures there is always 5 grams of glucose in the blood, and if achieved through protein, it's in the form of pyruvate.

In regards to my thyroid, I actually feel I was hypothyroid when I was more sugar/carb based. Ever since going raw carnivore, with lots of raw dairy, raw butter, raw fish, raw kefir etc, my body tempurature has really stablized, same with mood and energy. It's just these last 4 weeks as I mentioned. Hair is growing in thicker, hair loss has been slowed, no more white spots on fingernails as well, used to be constant even with zinc supplementation. Now I take virtually zero supplements. I focus on whole foods and organs for nutrients.

Today I am seeing the doctor and will be requesting that full iron panel, so we'll see. I'll keep what you said in mind.

 

[Vinero]

I understand where you are coming from, but believe me, it's not the diet. I started this diet back in January 2018 and my results have been amazing. My strength in the gym, my overall glow of health, which family and friends commented on and energy levels really increased. This just started happening when I was using the clomid, nolvadex and heavy doses of 5a-dhp in the last 4 weeks. Carbs are not necessary for human life. The human body ensures there is always 5 grams of glucose in the blood, and if achieved through protein, it's in the form of pyruvate.

In regards to my thyroid, I actually feel I was hypothyroid when I was more sugar/carb based. Ever since going raw carnivore, with lots of raw dairy, raw butter, raw fish, raw kefir etc, my body tempurature has really stablized, same with mood and energy. It's just these last 4 weeks as I mentioned. Hair is growing in thicker, hair loss has been slowed, no more white spots on fingernails as well, used to be constant even with zinc supplementation. Now I take virtually zero supplements. I focus on whole foods and organs for nutrients.

Today I am seeing the doctor and will be requesting that full iron panel, so we'll see. I'll keep what you said in mind.

Your story is similar to many low-carbers stories. You feel fantastic in the beginning, lose weight, lower inflammation, more energy etc. Then after a few months/years they start to develop health problems. When you don't eat carbs, your body produces cortisol to break down muscle tissue to provide sugar. Cortisol increases blood sugar and is anti-inflammatory. This is why people sometimes feel great when they increase their cortisol production. After a few months however, the toxic effects of cortisol begin to manifest: suppressed immune function which allows bacterial growth, supressed thyroid function which lowers energy production, and ofcourse diabetes resulting from the inability to oxidize glucose since you are burning only fat.
Go to Raypeat.com and just read some articles, it will become clear that being a fat-burner is associated with disease-states, and burning sugar/carbs is associated with having a healthy metabolism/thyroid function and the body being in a low-stress state.

 

[MCurtone]

Your story is similar to many low-carbers stories. You feel fantastic in the beginning, lose weight, lower inflammation, more energy etc. Then after a few months/years they start to develop health problems. When you don't eat carbs, your body produces cortisol to break down muscle tissue to provide sugar. Cortisol increases blood sugar and is anti-inflammatory. This is why people sometimes feel great when they increase their cortisol production. After a few months however, the toxic effects of cortisol begin to manifest: suppressed immune function which allows bacterial growth, supressed thyroid function which lowers energy production, and ofcourse diabetes resulting from the inability to oxidize glucose since you are burning only fat.
Go to Raypeat.com and just read some articles, it will become clear that being a fat-burner is associated with disease-states, and burning sugar/carbs is associated with having a healthy metabolism/thyroid function and the body being in a low-stress state.

This is where our philosophies will have to differ. I used to follow exactly what you mention here and was a heavy carb burner my whole life. All those ailments you mentioned I actually had. When I started raw carnivore with lots of raw proteins and raw fats, all of that has improved. Today my fatigue and outlook actually has improved compared to the last 1.5 weeks and I just got bloodwork done. Results will be ready in a couple days. I follow the findings of Weston A Price, who traveled and lived with native tribes around the globe, who basically lived off raw animal products and very little carbs/grains. They were the tallest, happiest, strongest and healthiest people he found. You can look into the Primal Diet if you are interested. www.wewant2live.com Thousands of people have adopted this more primal diet and had amazing changes that lasted. Regardless I appreciate your input and will keep it into consideration. I'm sure my current fatigue for the last 1.5 weeks is due to the AI's, SERMS and 5a dhp smashing down my estrogen and receptors. Maybe too much gaba agonism as well, driving cortisol low. Never had this before. Will take Haiduts advice and stay away from these for some time and see how I feel over the next 7-10 days and update you all.

 

[GENE FIALKOFF]

has ray given any feedback on sample sent?

 

[haidut]

has ray given any feedback on sample sent?

No, but that was almost 2 years ago so I may need to send him another one and ask for comment. The last time I just mailed him a bottle without asking that he comment on it.

 

[member 6316]

Anxiety is more affected by GABA agonism than CRH antagonism. CRH antagonism should have more effect on how well you handle stress. Have not tried 5a-THDOC but it would probably have a sedative and anti-anxiety effects similar to allopregnanolone.

on your idealabs suggestion thread I suggested a CRHR1 antagonist , you said that Pregnenolone blocks CRH. Progesterone and allopregnanolone, downstream metabolites of pregnenolone also do.
Now does it block or inhibit? Im a little confused- both produce different effects yes. I suck at this stuff but if you inhibit CRH for me it is basically the same as antagonist. I wouldn't think they would produce such different effects. Im not asking for medical advice just curious but what would one need to do if they had increased CRF1 activity? If pregnenolone/progesterone didn't work. Becuase from what I understand if CRF1 activity is increased, GABA-A agonism wont help that? just the anxiety that comes with it but CRF1 will still be at the same lvl of activity.
Im wondering about the ''handle stress' aspect becuase this is a serious issue im dealing with. I assume GABA-A would be beneficial to a point but not 100%.
What can you really do if you have increased CRF1 activity? nothing it seems.
hypermorph - Wiktionary (a gain of function mutation that causes an increase in otherwise normal gene function, IE CRF1 activity/Me)

 

[member 6316]

ugh how are you supposed to even take this? drops will barely come out and its so narrow idk if it can even do anything.

 

[member 6316]

and i think 1 of the 2 i bought are broken.... white crystals in ....

 

[koky]

can you please point out differences between 5α-DHP and 6 ketop4
how they may be used together or if that would be redundant
and best use for each
thanks