Parsifal
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What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system and people doing cold thermogenesis and cryotherapy?Suikerbuik said:
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What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system and people doing cold thermogenesis and cryotherapy?Suikerbuik said:
That's great that you got a capnometer, m_arch. Where did you get it from and how much did it cost? How do the capnometer readings compare to your oximeter readings? So your readings with the capnometer are quite good, right? But your baseline on the oximeter was around 97%, which is kind of high. Is that right? What is your CP? I'm really curious as to how all these measurements compare, if you don't mind posting them and posting your experiences with any changes.
When I last had blood work done, my CO2 reading was average, even though my breathing was terrible at the time. I wonder if it is better to have an even higher CO2 than what is usually given as the norm? Also, I don't really understand why a high CO2 is indicative of a good metabolism. I still feel really stupid about CO2 and measurements, even though I've been researching it for almost 3 months now.
Your Wim Hof experiment is somehow reassuring to me. That even though it temporarily lowered your kPa, that your body then rebalanced itself a short time later. It seems to indicate that short bursts of hyperventilation are okay.
I will be curious to follow any other experiments that you do. Also, after you use it for awhile, I will be curious to hear your evaluation, and if getting a capnometer was worth it.
It makes sense to me that nose breathing during exercise is more powerful than just reduced breathing exercise. But those kinds of improvements aren't measured by the oximeter. Also, I've found that it can be tricky to do an optimal amount of exercise kinds of things and not stress oneself too much. A certain amount of breath training and exercise has felt really good for me, but too much causes too much stress and sets me back after. I keep thinking that further down the road when my baseline breathing gets even better, that I'll be able to do more of the strenuous Buteyko kinds of things.So when I do reduced breathing techniques I can get the capnometer up to 6.5 kPa (I can also easily achieve this while moving around, like, really easily comparatively to breathing. Artor at normalbreathing.com says buteyko and himself recommend nose-breathing exercise like running, or exercise using a training elevation mask, as more powerful than breathing exercises to increase co2 tolerance) - I have done some of this in the past also. But not much. I had an exercise bike, training elevation mask and heart rate monitor and would cycle for half an hour at 150-160bpm, each time increasing the "altitude" of my training elevation mask (making it more difficult to breathe). It got to a point where I felt a bit funny in my head, I probably pushed it a bit too hard and was building up too much co2. At this point I was also reading more about peating and the "stress" caused by cardio so I stopped.
Thanks. Your explanation was helpful. I've heard mention of these things on the forum but am just beginning to put it together with the CO2. I don't have a background in any of this, but little by little I'm understanding a bit more.I did too. I think I have the answer now. If you youtube "cellular respiration" or even join a site like kahnacademy.com you can take a free course in biology and learn about it. Basically say we drink some OJ, we'll digest it, it gets broken down into different things. Say we look at a glucose molecule, the cell wants to turn this into ATP (its energy currency) to do this it needs oxygen. When the oxygen and the glucose interact (meaning cellular respiration is taking place, energy is being used) - they give off the 'waste products' of water and co2. So by breathing out more co2, its indicative that more cellular respiration is taking place, indicative of higher metabolism, blood flow, etc.
And these things go through a few cycles; glycolysis, kerbs cycle, and the electron transport chain. Glycolysis and the krebs cycle both produce net 2ATP and the electron transport chain produce 34, so 38 if everything works well. However some fats and proteins only join into the electron transport chain (so they effectively never have the same potential to create 38, only possibly creating 34).
When I started my most common oximeter reading was 99%. Then it was 98%. Now it's at 97%. It's taken about 6 weeks to get it to drop a percentage point and then stay down. I'd like to get it to where my baseline reading is 95% or even 94%. I'm not focusing on raising my CP right now, maybe later. It will be interesting if you test more people and the oximeter and capnometer readings stay consistent with each other.My most common resting oximeter reading is 97% - this is measuring oxygen saturation of the body. I'm not sure what a high value is with the oximeter. My girlfriend has an ETCO2 slightly lower than mine, and an oximeter reading slightly higher. Perhaps this is consistent, I did feel like the oximeter wasn't specific enough though. A 1% change is a pretty big deal, so having like 97.4% might have been more useful. It is interesting to watch how it interacts though. Hyperventilation shoots it up to 99 and buteykobreathing brings it down.
I was going to ask you about these things. So I'm glad that you're already planning on testing them. I'll be very interested in your results. Also, you could test bag breathing. Are you already taking a bunch of supplements? I wonder if certain supplements would make a difference in the capnometer readings.TO DO:
Measure ETCO2 after an exercise bike 30min session using the training elevation mask
Measure the ETCO2 coming out of a frolov device session using a large container and tea towel around it.
Thanks. Your explanation was helpful. I've heard mention of these things on the forum but am just beginning to put it together with the CO2. I don't have a background in any of this, but little by little I'm understanding a bit more.
When I started my most common oximeter reading was 99%. Then it was 98%. Now it's at 97%. It's taken about 6 weeks to get it to drop a percentage point and then stay down. I'd like to get it to where my baseline reading is 95% or even 94%. I'm not focusing on raising my CP right now, maybe later. It will be interesting if you test more people and the oximeter and capnometer readings stay consistent with each other.
I was going to ask you about these things. So I'm glad that you're already planning on testing them. I'll be very interested in your results. Also, you could test bag breathing. Are you already taking a bunch of supplements? I wonder if certain supplements would make a difference in the capnometer readings.
My understanding of why hyperventilation increases max breath hold time is this:I just tested then - I can hold my breath for 1 minute and 7 seconds without hyperventilating. So it effectively doubled the breath hold time - indicative of increased oxygenation perhaps. It might be more complex than this, I'm not sure. Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am.
I like this explanation.Basically say we drink some OJ, we'll digest it, it gets broken down into different things. Say we look at a glucose molecule, the cell wants to turn this into ATP (its energy currency) to do this it needs oxygen. When the oxygen and the glucose interact (meaning cellular respiration is taking place, energy is being used) - they give off the 'waste products' of water and co2. So by breathing out more co2, its indicative that more cellular respiration is taking place, indicative of higher metabolism, blood flow, etc.
My understanding of why hyperventilation increases max breath hold time is this:
The drive to breathe is usually triggered by the CO2 level exceeding the current set point.
Hyperventilating lowers the CO2 level.
So after hyperventilating, it takes longer than normal for the CO2 level to rise to the threshold of the CO2 set point that triggers breathing.
This can result in much reduced oxygen level by the time you get to the max hold time.
The oxygen saturation going from eg 96% to 99/100% isn't so much. The relative change in CO2 is much more.But it makes sense that the body becomes very oxygen saturated. The oximeter only measures up to 99% but I feel like I'd be measuring like 140% oxygen saturation after hyperventilating for two minutes. What an effort it is!
I think this may be possible.Or maybe its that the high pH tricks the brain into thinking that it doesn't need to breathe - thus we can hold our breath longer
I imagine this is the part where some people could have trouble triggered if they are susceptible to heart attacks, epileptic seizures, etc.I get strange tingles all over my body, not very pleasant but I can withstand it for 2 minutes.
I think this is why it's good to not be underwater at the time.During the breath hold my SpO2 remains around 97% until I start to feel air hunger (after around 2 and a half minutes whaaaat)
During air hunger my SpO2 falls like a lead balloon down to 81%, before I need to breathe.
When I need to breathe I don't gasp but simply require a short breath, and in return my SpO2 continues to fall like said lead balloon all the way down to 65% SpO2.
That's interesting that the ETCO2 ended up higher 5min afterwards. I'm curious too.ETCO2 - 5.5 kPa
Both myself and my girlfriend think it feels good. And better than buteyko style breath holding where you feel constant air hunger.Wow. That must be scary to watch the SpO2 drop like that. My SpO2 has never gotten lower than maybe 92%. It's very interesting how fast everything returns to normal. Plus your CO2 improved a bit. Did it stay slightly improved? Maybe because of the long breath hold there could be some CO2 improvement or benefit. How do you feel after? Does it feel good or like it's benefiting you in some way? When you do the hyperventilation breaths do you breath through your mouth or your nose?
I think this is why it's good to not be underwater at the time.
That's interesting that the ETCO2 ended up higher 5min afterwards. I'm curious too.
Also interested in how it is an hour and a day later, if you want to post.
It would be great if you did this on a daily basis and if improved your breathing and CO2 levels. I would think that if this method worked, that then Buteyko would have known about and explored it, but maybe not. Or maybe it works for some people and not for others? Is your girlfriend willing to have you test and post the results of her oximeter and capnometer readings when she does it? I would be interested in her results, especially as her CO2 levels aren't quite as good as yours to begin with.Both myself and my girlfriend think it feels good. And better than buteyko style breath holding where you feel constant air hunger.
Hyperventilation through the mouth - wim says it doesn't really matter. Just get as much air in as possible, so you can get more through the mouth. I always nosebreathe outside of that because of reading ray and buteyko - even when playing tennis I make an effort to only nose breathe.
Yes it seems the CO2 improved due to the neary 3 minute breath hold at the end! I also think perhaps because I was just waking up from a fasted state my ETCO2 was lower, and then the breathing probably activated my body (adrenaline stress response) - probably not such a bad thing in the morning. Just scoffed down some pate and bread, milk, collagen and honey.
So my past experience is very much the opposite of yours, Sheila. Your experience, of being in a performance while having those symptoms, seems especially excruciating. But I wonder if you had those strong symptoms because your breathing in general was comfortably reduced, and then those symptoms protected you from going too far into hyperventilation? I think that I had poor breathing and hyperventilated before starting breathwork. So my body never even had those kinds of protective symptoms. So I then was misguidedly able to move in a direction that made things even worse. Or I wonder what else strong hyperventilation symptoms would indicate? For people who have those kinds of hyperventilation symptoms, the symptoms eventually go away after doing repeated breathwork sessions. In breathwork circles, it is looked upon as a good thing to therapeutically work through those kinds of symptoms. Yikes! But the prevailing cultural attitude of more breathing and more oxygen being better, allows these kinds of breathing practices to continue to be way more popular than Buteyko breathing.I recall the tingles came first, then unbelievable cramps and at the end it was all I could do to get off stage, I was stuck like a statue. It took me a good while to recover - as I still remember it - and I was mid-teens I think so no likely cardio-vascular risk. But, it felt like it.
...which resulted in a about 3 minutes of serious hyperventilation, staring and pointing at the sky.
I recall the tingles came first, then unbelievable cramps and at the end it was all I could do to get off stage, I was stuck like a statue.
I also remember those tingles, experimented while playing andean flute in my teens.
Then my arms would contract, as with cramps.
Like a statue?
In somatic experiencing we call this freezing, as a consequence of too much stress. A sort of shut off to protect the body from suffering stress. Like electric fuses.
So yes I believe Peat when he speaks about protecting against metabolic stress.
I think hyperventilation triggers the fight flight freeze response, aka sympathic activation that can lead to a strong parasympathic blocage by the vago-dorsal branch (see Porges for the polyvagal theory)
exhalation and co2 activates the vago ventral parasympathic state, which is the relaxation that allows the body to digest etc, and thus a good cellular respiration, production of co2 and not of lactic acid.