Vitamin A and T3 for testosterone - dosage

[Peatress]

@Sumbody , Vitamin A toxicity is not a "hidden" agenda or obscure topic. Hypervitaminosis A is all over Common Medical Literature. There is no debate in any medical forum that Vitamin A toxicity exist. It very real, so real that 1 serving of Polar Bear liver is Lethal as was deadly for some explorers. Now, whether or not it is a straight up toxin, or a vitamin is debatable. But for people to be concerned on how much vitamin A they are ingesting and or storing is very responsible. Vitamin A overdosing is linked to Liver Cirrohsis and OsteoPorosis. Not something I want to play around with.
Many forum members now agree that Ray was very wrong on this subject. Especially now with the work of others showing the links between high vitamin A intake and hypothyroidism. Now we know why Ray needed to take so much thyroid hormone, because his Vitamin A intake as so antagonistic to his thyroid. Garrett Smith has many papers on the connecting between Hypothyroidism and vitamin A.

This is what Dr. Peat said about the polar bear in an interview with Patrick Timpone in 2019

PT: Does Dr. Peat think there's anything to this more and more people talking about vitamin A toxicity? Seems to be a new thing that people are kind of clamouring about. Anything here we need to look at in your opinion?

Dr. Peat: In 1973 and '74, the drug companies were coming out with synthetic vitamin A products. They found professors around the country to tell stories. One at, I think it was University of Oregon or Washington, put out the story that she had seen patients go blind from taking vitamin A. There were several professors with stories like that coordinated apparently through the advertising departments of the pharmaceutical companies selling synthetic vitamin A. I contacted these professors. They wouldn't talk to me. It was obviously just made up stories to make people fear vitamin A. One of the popular stories is about some explorers who ate polar bear liver and their skin fell off in the following days. There are lots of toxic things that a polar bear's liver might contain. But they chose to blame it on vitamin A. In animal experiments, huge doses that would be greater than you could get from polar bear liver never produce symptoms similar to what the polar bear liver supposedly caused. So there's a history of trying to create panic. That's going on with vitamin E. People are saying vitamin E causes heart disease and cancer. They have products to sell that might cost $1,000 or $10,000 a month......................

Yeah, experiments with baby chicks. I think they were giving them something like a million units of vitamin A, which caused brain deformity. Their brain stuck out of their cranium as they developed. But if they gave them a moderate amount of vitamin E, the vitamin A was no longer toxic. So what was happening was at a certain very high level, vitamin A auto-catalyzes. It stimulates its own oxidation and degradation. And the symptoms of vitamin A poisoning become similar to vitamin A deficiency. And both of those are prevented by adding vitamin E, which prevents the breakdown................

PT: Does the oxidative stress cause the lipofuscin accumulation, or is it the other way around, in your opinion?"

Dr. Peat: It's both. When lipofuscin lowers the oxygen tension, it acts as a catalyst, taking fuel directly to oxygen and creating an oxygen deficiency. And that oxygen deficiency imitates what happens under stress or in the presence of estrogen. The low oxygen creates the catalytic condition to further degrade any polyunsaturated fat that's in the environment. And vitamin A can contribute to that. An excess of vitamin A, without E, interacts with the fish oil or other unsaturated fat to lead to the accelerated production of lipofuscin

PT: Oh, so the E helps with lipofuscin if you're going to do some pufas or something.

Dr. Peat: Yeah, it's the main... That was one of the things that led to vitamin E research was discovering that it prevented lipofuscin and the brain toxic effects and testosterone suppressing effects and so on.

PT: So, would your fave be then one of those like mixed tocopherol kind of vitamins?

Dr. Peat: Yeah, I think the mixed product is the best.

Interview segment: bioenergetic search

Full Interview

Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D - The Latest Visit With Ray Peat Delivers The Goods - May 21, 2019 | One Radio Network

 

[Jennifer]

@Sumbody , Vitamin A toxicity is not a "hidden" agenda or obscure topic. Hypervitaminosis A is all over Common Medical Literature. There is no debate in any medical forum that Vitamin A toxicity exist. It very real, so real that 1 serving of Polar Bear liver is Lethal as was deadly for some explorers. Now, whether or not it is a straight up toxin, or a vitamin is debatable. But for people to be concerned on how much vitamin A they are ingesting and or storing is very responsible. Vitamin A overdosing is linked to Liver Cirrohsis and OsteoPorosis. Not something I want to play around with.
Many forum members now agree that Ray was very wrong on this subject. Especially now with the work of others showing the links between high vitamin A intake and hypothyroidism. Now we know why Ray needed to take so much thyroid hormone, because his Vitamin A intake as so antagonistic to his thyroid. Garrett Smith has many papers on the connecting between Hypothyroidism and vitamin A.

In my experience, vitamin A is not a straight up toxin. I reversed my osteoporosis on a diet high in vitamin A, shown via DEXA scans and ultrasounds, and I no longer need a thyroid supplement since greatly increasing my fat intake from vitamin A rich foods. I think Sumbody was spot on with their comment that what works for ourselves, doesn't always work the same for everyone else.

 

[Sumbody]

@Sumbody , Vitamin A toxicity is not a "hidden" agenda or obscure topic. Hypervitaminosis A is all over Common Medical Literature. There is no debate in any medical forum that Vitamin A toxicity exist. It very real, so real that 1 serving of Polar Bear liver is Lethal as was deadly for some explorers. Now, whether or not it is a straight up toxin, or a vitamin is debatable. But for people to be concerned on how much vitamin A they are ingesting and or storing is very responsible. Vitamin A overdosing is linked to Liver Cirrohsis and OsteoPorosis. Not something I want to play around with.
Many forum members now agree that Ray was very wrong on this subject. Especially now with the work of others showing the links between high vitamin A intake and hypothyroidism. Now we know why Ray needed to take so much thyroid hormone, because his Vitamin A intake as so antagonistic to his thyroid. Garrett Smith has many papers on the connecting between Hypothyroidism and vitamin A.

I'm aware of vitamin A's potential to be toxic, and I briefly touch upon that in my post #54 above referencing alcoholism.

I also attached an article above linking low vitamin A status and impairment to hypothyroidism.

However, there is plenty of "evidence" for both arguments, and leaves a lot to be understood.

 

[Jonk]

But for people to be concerned on how much vitamin A they are ingesting and or storing is very responsible.

I see some of those who's very critical of vitamin A and calling it a toxin are precisely those who once ate large amounts of liver and taking vitamin A supplements every single day for long periods of time. Sure then you probably want to be very careful but I don't see why you would need to be concerned otherwise?

 

[Sumbody]

He did discuss the story about explorers who ate polar bear liver and subsequently experienced their skin peeling off. He mentioned that this incident is often attributed to vitamin A toxicity

Assuming these explorers where exposed to subpolar conditions, it's also possible this was attributed to mild frostbite.

But that would be an assumption given the limited details of the story.

 

[charlie]

Not for me and my family. Ray’s dietary and thyroid recommendations have been a blessing to us.

It was a blessing for me and my family too, for several years. Until vitamin A and copper toxicity started creeping in. The copper toxicity eventually unleashed a fury of hell that I would not wish on anyone.

 

[Peater]

The copper toxicity eventually unleashed a fury of hell that I would not wish on anyone.

Interested in your experience with this, have you posted elsewhere about it?

 

[charlie]

Interested in your experience with this, have you posted elsewhere about it?

I do not recall posting much about it. But basically I thought I had full blown parkinsons with intense internal tremors, electrical pulses running through my body at times I felt like I was hooked up to the electrical chair. At one point I had to go and lock myself in a hotel room for a couple of weeks because I absolutely felt like I was losing it. There are others who experienced the same. It all started off mild with small waves of energy running through various places in my body, at times in the beginning, it actually felt good. But then it just kept getting worse and worse and worse until I felt like I was on the edge of death. This went on for 3 or 4 years until I finally figured out it was copper toxicity brought on by vitamin A toxicity. If I can save one person from this hell all of this was worth it.

 

[Peater]

I do not recall posting much about it. But basically I thought I had full blown parkinsons with intense internal tremors, electrical pulses running through my body at times I felt like I was hooked up to the electrical chair. At one point I had to go and lock myself in a hotel room for a couple of weeks because I absolutely felt like I was losing it. There are others who experienced the same. It all started off mild with small waves of energy running through various places in my body, at times in the beginning, it actually felt good. But then it just kept getting worse and worse and worse until I felt like I was on the edge of death. This went on for 3 or 4 years until I finally figured out it was copper toxicity brought on by vitamin A toxicity. If I can save one person from this hell all of this was worth it.

Did you do high-dose zinc or something to get rid of copper? Molybdenum will strip copper out of you as well, too well sometimes.

 

[charlie]

Did you do high-dose zinc or something to get rid of copper? Molybdenum will strip copper out of you as well, too well sometimes.

Yes to both and other copper antagonists. However, when the copper comes out it is brutal. Poison on the way in, and poison on the way out. It will absolutely wreck you when leaving.

 

[Pete Rey]

I have to say, I wish this topic could be discussed without all the rhetoric. It's exhausting. Whatever happened to "There is no Ray Peat diet?" Seems that since he passed, so did that sentiment. Evangelization should always be met with skepticism.

With that off my chest... Now that I have an example to go off of (which are surprisingly hard to find), it sounds to me like this is just a high-fiber, low-fat, moderately-low fructose diet. Seems both a bit pro-Peat and a bit anti-Peat, which is perfectly normal and to be expected for anyone not named Ray Peat finding out what works for them.

What are the chances that the perceived benefits are simply from reduced endotoxin load from the increased fiber, which was part of Ray's rationale behind the carrot salad idea, and has nothing to do with Vitamin A?

It just seems awfully reductionist to try to pin the complexity of human nutrition and health down to one vitamin/toxin/micronutrient/whatever you prefer to call it.

 

[Peater]

Yes to both and other copper antagonists. However, when the copper comes out it is brutal. Poison on the way in, and poison on the way out. It will absolutely wreck you when leaving.

What was it like on the way out? (I'm not trying to catch you out - I'm intrigued by copper after reading a link about Pyroluria. I know veggie/vegan diets are considered too high in it.)

 

[charlie]

What was it like on the way out? (I'm not trying to catch you out - I'm intrigued by copper after reading a link about Pyroluria. I know veggie/vegan diets are considered too high in it.)

Its horrifying, you literally are getting electrocuted by your own body. Intense internal tremors, just an awful feeling. It feels like your brain is morphing as it drains from it. Many others report the same. And even once it is removed it takes the body a while to get back to normal.

 

[charlie]

And there are MANY MANY MANY ex Petarians in the low vitamin A and low toxin groups digging themselves out of the hell that was inflicted on the by the Ray Peat dietary recommendations. And that's a fact!

 

[Peater]

And there are MANY MANY MANY ex Petarians in the low vitamin A and low toxin groups digging themselves out of the hell that was inflicted on the by the Ray Peat dietary recommendations. And that's a fact!

Is there anything other than copper and Vit A you consider toxic? Some people say Vit D. Haven't seen anything bad about Vit K mk4.

 

[charlie]

Is there anything other than copper and Vit A you consider toxic? Some people say Vit D. Haven't seen anything bad about Vit K mk4.

Yes, supplemental vitamin D is absolutely toxic and turns a person literally into stone:

View: https://twitter.com/BertarelliGina/status/1742765003533684928


View: https://twitter.com/Will_of_Europa/status/1742923315940151414


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1738673716312277267


It seems that Vit K mk4 is probably OK.

 

[Peater]

Yes, supplemental vitamin D is absolutely toxic and turns a person literally into stone:

View: https://twitter.com/BertarelliGina/status/1742765003533684928


View: https://twitter.com/Will_of_Europa/status/1742923315940151414


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1738673716312277267


It seems that Vit K mk4 is probably OK.

I used to take quite bit of Vit D, hopefully no lasting damage. The last time I can remember using it regularly was when I caught "COVID" in early 2020. It didn't seem to make recovery any quicker despite the hype.

 

[Jennifer]

It was a blessing for me and my family too, for several years. Until vitamin A and copper toxicity started creeping in. The copper toxicity eventually unleashed a fury of hell that I would not wish on anyone.

That’s scary! I’m really glad you’re feeling better. I know of so many people, including myself, who experienced improvements in their health following a new diet/protocol, only to deteriorate after several years. Thankfully, my family is well passed the several year mark and continue to improve.

 

[tallglass13]

This is what Dr. Peat said about the polar bear in an interview with Patrick Timpone in 2019

PT: Does Dr. Peat think there's anything to this more and more people talking about vitamin A toxicity? Seems to be a new thing that people are kind of clamouring about. Anything here we need to look at in your opinion?

Dr. Peat: In 1973 and '74, the drug companies were coming out with synthetic vitamin A products. They found professors around the country to tell stories. One at, I think it was University of Oregon or Washington, put out the story that she had seen patients go blind from taking vitamin A. There were several professors with stories like that coordinated apparently through the advertising departments of the pharmaceutical companies selling synthetic vitamin A. I contacted these professors. They wouldn't talk to me. It was obviously just made up stories to make people fear vitamin A. One of the popular stories is about some explorers who ate polar bear liver and their skin fell off in the following days. There are lots of toxic things that a polar bear's liver might contain. But they chose to blame it on vitamin A. In animal experiments, huge doses that would be greater than you could get from polar bear liver never produce symptoms similar to what the polar bear liver supposedly caused. So there's a history of trying to create panic. That's going on with vitamin E. People are saying vitamin E causes heart disease and cancer. They have products to sell that might cost $1,000 or $10,000 a month......................

Yeah, experiments with baby chicks. I think they were giving them something like a million units of vitamin A, which caused brain deformity. Their brain stuck out of their cranium as they developed. But if they gave them a moderate amount of vitamin E, the vitamin A was no longer toxic. So what was happening was at a certain very high level, vitamin A auto-catalyzes. It stimulates its own oxidation and degradation. And the symptoms of vitamin A poisoning become similar to vitamin A deficiency. And both of those are prevented by adding vitamin E, which prevents the breakdown................

PT: Does the oxidative stress cause the lipofuscin accumulation, or is it the other way around, in your opinion?"

Dr. Peat: It's both. When lipofuscin lowers the oxygen tension, it acts as a catalyst, taking fuel directly to oxygen and creating an oxygen deficiency. And that oxygen deficiency imitates what happens under stress or in the presence of estrogen. The low oxygen creates the catalytic condition to further degrade any polyunsaturated fat that's in the environment. And vitamin A can contribute to that. An excess of vitamin A, without E, interacts with the fish oil or other unsaturated fat to lead to the accelerated production of lipofuscin

PT: Oh, so the E helps with lipofuscin if you're going to do some pufas or something.

Dr. Peat: Yeah, it's the main... That was one of the things that led to vitamin E research was discovering that it prevented lipofuscin and the brain toxic effects and testosterone suppressing effects and so on.

PT: So, would your fave be then one of those like mixed tocopherol kind of vitamins?

Dr. Peat: Yeah, I think the mixed product is the best.

Interview segment: bioenergetic search

Full Interview

Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D - The Latest Visit With Ray Peat Delivers The Goods - May 21, 2019 | One Radio Network

The Polar Bear deaths was only one example. Many more from children eating chicken livers and so on. Dr Peat also stated when he would supplement Vitamin A he would get a migraine. He blames in on the added ingredients. Dr. Peat also stated he got a large Cherry angioma on his abdomen. Dr Peat also Lost most of his teeth. Which he blames on wheat germ. Recently before his Passing, he was blaming his choking and coughing on allergy to bacon additives. So he seems to give alot of Anecdotal stuff, plus a bunch of mice studies. My point is Ray could be wrong sometimes. I loved Dr Peat however. We had several conversations over the years. I will always think about him and pretty much obsessed still with him. Although He really did downplay the whole Vitamin A thing IMO.
Many people including myself have seen so many positive changes when eating low Vitamin A. It is so obvious its not even funny. For blossom to reduce her total cholesterol 100 points is more than remarkable. For people to see eczema go away is nothing short of a miracle.

 

[dukesbobby777]

Yes to both and other copper antagonists. However, when the copper comes out it is brutal. Poison on the way in, and poison on the way out. It will absolutely wreck you when leaving.

How did you get copper toxic in the first place? Insufficient zinc intake alongside high daily copper intake? Is that even possible without other external poisoning?

I've gone heavy on copper foods over the last few years (mostly seafood), and I've never experienced what you're talking about. Maybe you were cooking out of copper pans or something else that was contributing?