Vitamin A and T3 for testosterone - dosage

[Peatress]

The official statement is at the top of the forum, "Perceive, Think, Act". This is not a cult, if we get better information we will act on it. You cannot expect a man to be perfect, it is OK that Ray Peat was wrong about "vitamin A" and I am glad we are figuring it out so that our people can thrive and not be poisoned by this insidious so called vitamin.

I don’t think he was wrong about vitamin A. The misinterpretation of Dr. Peat’s work has led many of us to make grave mistakes. For instance, people who supplement vitamin A when it was not needed. As for carotene, Dr. Peat repeatedly warned about the anti-metabolic nature of this substance. I’m not dogmatic about following his “dietary guidelines” – I’ve made many adjustments based on tolerance. I eat starch. I don’t tolerate the carrot salad so I avoid it. Many here are attributing to vitamin A toxicity symptoms that are related to other things. Dr. Peat’s explanation of the benefits of an elimination diet probably explains the many improvements by people on a “low vitamin A” diet. We need to come to terms with our own mistakes in applying his principals.

You are right this is not a cult (you previously used the term cultist). I don’t think people who appreciate and still want to share Dr. Peats work are cultist. That label is being used in mainstream media to further clamp down on people with alternative views, including health. First they were anti-vaxxers conspiracy theorists and now the term cult is trending. Our government wants to bring in new laws to ban groups who are labelled as cults. I can see why many will want to distance themselves from such groups.

 

[charlie]

I don’t think he was not wrong about vitamin A.

From my observations and research, he is absolutely wrong about "vitamin A". Have you read the other side of it? Have you read Grants free books that he provides? Have you searched it out? Because if you have not, then you are not able to give a valid opinion on it because you have not seen or even considered that Peat based his conclusions off bad science. Doesn't make Peat a bad guy, he was basing his findings off bad science. Can happen to anyone and I do not fault him one bit for it. But I will make sure the good info gets out there so people can heal and better themselves with it.

 

[Peatress]

From my observations and research, he is absolutely wrong about "vitamin A". Have you read the other side of it? Have you read Grants free books that he provides? Have you searched it out? Because if you have not, then you are not able to give a valid opinion on it because you have not seen or even considered that Peat based his conclusions off bad science. Doesn't make Peat a bad guy, he was basing his findings off bad science. Can happen to anyone and I do not fault him one bit for it. But I will make sure the good info gets out there so people can heal and better themselves with it.

My sentence above was meant to read - I don’t think he was wrong about vitamin A.

Yes I downloaded Grants book years ago when I heard about it on the forum. I have been following some of the threads on vitamin A and still I don't have to agree with him.

Edit - I just checked. I got the pdf of the book in 2019

 

[Jennifer]

Hi @NommyWommy, it’s hard for me to say if it was the vitamin A that reduced my need for thyroid because I increased my intake of the vitamin solely from food, same as when I followed the WAPF inspired diet. Because of my prior gallbladder disease and propensity for turning orange, for years I was stuck on a very low-fat and low vitamin A diet of non-fat raw milk and cheese, scallops, crab, lean turkey breast, egg whites, honey, coconut water, fruit low in carotenoids such as peeled zucchini, honeydew and white fleshed melons, white fleshed peaches and white grape juice with small amounts of fat coming from coconut products (young meat, cream and oil). I’ve since switched from skimmed to full-fat dairy, including high vitamin butter oil, and I eat whole eggs and homemade ice cream every day.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Hi Jennifer, do you think it was the vitamin A that reduced your need for thyroid? I know haidut posted a study showing Vit A lowered tsh. It seems to be helping me also I find a few days after taking higher doses of Vitamin A my pulse and temps are higher. Thanks

Most likely not. If you read the Genereux thread, and also Peat’s quotes on A, you’d know that. If anything, A increases the need for thyroid.
VA is anti-thyroid. That’s why it can be tolerated in higher amounts by people who spend a lot of time in the sun, you need the pro-metabolic sunlight and environment to tolerate A.

 

[Jennifer]

Most likely not. If you read the Genereux thread, and also Peat’s quotes on A, you’d know that. If anything, A increases the need for thyroid.
VA is anti-thyroid. That’s why it can be tolerated in higher amounts by people who spend a lot of time in the sun, you need the pro-metabolic sunlight and environment to tolerate A.

Going by Ray, thyroid also increases the need for vitamin A. It’s also essential per Ray in progesterone production, which increases thyroid function.

 

[Sumbody]

Most likely not. If you read the Genereux thread, and also Peat’s quotes on A, you’d know that. If anything, A increases the need for thyroid.
VA is anti-thyroid. That’s why it can be tolerated in higher amounts by people who spend a lot of time in the sun, you need the pro-metabolic sunlight and environment to tolerate A.

In the past my TSH was once 19.

I began taking Vitamin A because I was drinking at the time, and began to have night blindness, a symptom of low A.

VA corrected my vision issue after about 8-9 days supplementation. Whereafter it was ceased.

In that time my TSH lowered down to something like 8. Still hypo, but a significant drop if you've ever tried to lower TSH even by one digit. There was no change to diet or lifestyle at that time.

When I had shared my success treating my vision and the unexpected drop in TSH, all the VA "cultists" jumped in about what an "idiot" I was for taking VA, and that my TSH drop wasn't significant enough.

The relationship between thyroid disorders and vitamin A.: A narrative minireview

The terms “vitamin A” and “retinoids” encompass a group of fat-soluble compounds essential for human nutrition. Some of them (retinol, retinal, 9-cis-retinoic acid, tretinoin, and 13-cis-retinoic acid) are fully natural, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[youngsinatra]

Taking high-doses of retinol palmitate for a year (~50K IU per day on average) was the one thing that completely destroyed my health.

It made me go from high thyroid (slightly above range free T3 naturally) to subclinical hypothyroidism (high TSH, below middle range free T3) that requires me to take thyroid medication. The last time I checked total testosterone, it was 440 ng/ml, which is actually kind of low for my age (25) so I cannot recommend retinol for raising T.

Messed up my thyroid, liver, dental, bone and neurological health big time.

In the past my TSH was once 19.

I began taking Vitamin A because I was drinking at the time, and began to have night blindness, a symptom of low A.

VA corrected my vision issue after about 8-9 days supplementation. Whereafter it was ceased.

In that time my TSH lowered down to something like 8. Still hypo, but a significant drop if you've ever tried to lower TSH even by one digit. There was no change to diet or lifestyle at that time.

When I had shared my success treating my vision and the unexpected drop in TSH, all the VA cultists jumped in about what an "idiot" I was for taking VA, and that my TSH drop wasn't significant enough.

The relationship between thyroid disorders and vitamin A.: A narrative minireview

The terms “vitamin A” and “retinoids” encompass a group of fat-soluble compounds essential for human nutrition. Some of them (retinol, retinal, 9-cis-retinoic acid, tretinoin, and 13-cis-retinoic acid) are fully natural, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The impact of vitamin A supplementation on thyroid function and insulin sensitivity: implication of deiodinases and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase in male Wistar rats - European Journal of Nutrition

Purpose Vitamin A is an essential nutrient with vital biological functions. The present study investigated the effect of different doses of vitamin A palmitate at different time intervals on thyroid hormones and glycemic markers. Methods Male rats were administrated vitamin A palmitate at...

link.springer.com

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45100389

View of Hypervitaminosis-A, Causes Hypothyroidism in Mouse

www.internationaljournalcorner.com

 

[Sumbody]

Taking high-doses of retinol palmitate for a year (~50K IU per day on average) was the one thing that completely destroyed my health.

What convinced you that taking such a high dose for so long was necessary for your health?

Did you not get any indication along the way that things were possibly turning bad? 3 month mark? 6 month mark?

VA toxicity is serious, and doses of 50k IU for 365 days straight is a sure way to get there.

 

[youngsinatra]

What convinced you that taking such a high dose for so long was necessary for your health?

Did you not get any indication along the way that things were possibly turning bad? 3 month mark? 6 month mark?

VA toxicity is serious, and doses of 50k IU for 365 days straight is a sure way to get there.

Haidut‘s posts made me believe that toxicity is likely a non-issue with vitamin A when accompanied by good amounts of D3, K2 and vitamin E. Unfortunately that didn’t work out.

I took it because I thought that it supercharged steroidogenesis. (and thus testosterone)

I think toxicity hit me at one spot, and I think it’s because my liver was not able to store any more retinyl esters and the „bucket overflowed“ into the blood stream. 6 month on zero vitamin A diet my serum retinol was 2x the upper limit.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

In the past my TSH was once 19.

I began taking Vitamin A because I was drinking at the time, and began to have night blindness, a symptom of low A.

VA corrected my vision issue after about 8-9 days supplementation. Whereafter it was ceased.

In that time my TSH lowered down to something like 8. Still hypo, but a significant drop if you've ever tried to lower TSH even by one digit. There was no change to diet or lifestyle at that time.

When I had shared my success treating my vision and the unexpected drop in TSH, all the VA "cultists" jumped in about what an "idiot" I was for taking VA, and that my TSH drop wasn't significant enough.

The relationship between thyroid disorders and vitamin A.: A narrative minireview

The terms “vitamin A” and “retinoids” encompass a group of fat-soluble compounds essential for human nutrition. Some of them (retinol, retinal, 9-cis-retinoic acid, tretinoin, and 13-cis-retinoic acid) are fully natural, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Well you had a deficiency, that’s not the point. Once VA levels are saturated, VA is anti thyroid.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Haidut‘s posts made me believe that toxicity is likely a non-issue with vitamin A when accompanied by good amounts of D3, K2 and vitamin E. Unfortunately that didn’t work out.

I took it because I thought that it supercharged steroidogenesis. (and thus testosterone)

I think toxicity hit me at one spot, and I think it’s because my liver was not able to store any more retinyl esters and the „bucket overflowed“ into the blood stream. 6 month on zero vitamin A diet my serum retinol was 2x the upper limit.

And if I recall correctly, you noticed positive effects from it for a good couple of months? That’s gotta be hard to realise in retrospect that you did a mistake, when all the signs pointed it was a good decision.

 

[Sumbody]

Well you had a deficiency, that’s not the point. Once VA levels are saturated, VA is anti thyroid.

It sort of is the point.

Peat wasn't "wrong" necessarily about Vitamin A. He had always stated that in hypothyroid individuals, vitamin A status was impaired. Following research later had confirmed this to be the case.

But Peat never advocated for taking large doses of vitamin A, or really any supplement for that matter perhaps with some slight exceptions.

There is a larger distance from those with say Hashimotos vs. folks with a slight increase in TSH, in the fact that the former HAVE to take thyroid just to be able to function, not fall asleep everywhere they go, and not bloat up with edema every waking day.

Folks around here will have a TSH of 1.9, normal T3/T4, and claim they are hypothyroid to which they must "fix" with copious amounts of thyroid, and God knows what else. Not to say they aren't optimal, but stark contrast to those with TSH in the hundreds and practically non existant T4/T3.

Once thyroid status is improved, due to supplementation, or other factors, VA status normalizes as well. It is not necessary to load up on liver and supplements once this state is achieved. But everyone else seems to have missed that point.

 

[mosaic01]

Some here have cognitive dissonance about Peat and vitamin A. He wrote that symptoms decrease linearly with a dose of vitamin A up to 100.000 IU per day. All of his writings implicate that he considered such a dose not problematic per se. Even pro vitamin A researchers would consider this dose highly toxic. He did not straight up recommend people to take such a high dose, but there's no comments from him that it's dangerous beyond temporarily suppressing thyroid. His recommendations led people to build their diet around milk, eggs, orange juice, carrots and liver. Ironically, two medium carrots alone make one reach >100% of the RDA.

This is about God keeping His promise to return everything that was stolen from us, even our health.

I'm thinking along the same lines.

Btw, a couple months ago I read in a local newspaper about a 100 year old man, whom I know because my dad dated his daughter. He is still working. When asked about his diet, he replied that he despises all vegetables.

Then there's the girl with bipolar disorder who has to cry for no reason everyday, and all she craves is sweet potatoes, pumpkin and carrots. Her dad was a bodybuilder and made her eat rice and meat only, so she rebelled and became a vegan.

Or the child who already has OCD with 6 months old, with a grandma who feeds her selfmade carrot and spinach smoothies. The poor child has to arrange everything she sees into a neat row. When she gets some berries, she arranges them in perfect order on her table. When she's in daycare, she cleans up behind the other children.
toxic
Once you open your eyes, this topic is everywhere.

I once had Vitamin A deficiency likely due to heavy drinking + hypothyroidism. Became difficult to see at night, night blindness, blurry/bright starry effect on lights. Even had a scratchy heavy feeling in my eyes just about all the time.

Took high dose vitamin A every day and within about 8-10 days my eyes and night vision were back to better than what I remembered that of normal.

That wasn't a vitamin A deficiency. The alcohol probably transported the retinoic acid everywhere into your body, causing issues.

I had something similar. Pupils were dilated all the time, even outside in the sun, so I was very light sensitive. That went away after taking 10,000 IU of vitamin A once. But I was severely vA toxic, so how does this go together?

Maybe this happens because the retinol replaces the more toxic retinoic acid, or the body moves more vA into the liver out of the blood, during the sudden spike.

Mercury and arsenic are "therapeutic" as well in the short-term. The toxicity of heavy metals is easier to recognize than the toxicity of retinol, but all of them accumulate in the body and cause problems later. It's not a new discovery that toxins can suppress symptoms.

Just look at the first random paper I found on arsenic:

"Arsenicals are one of the oldest treatments for a variety of human disorders. Although infamous for its toxicity, arsenic is paradoxically a therapeutic agent that has been used since ancient times for the treatment of multiple diseases. The use of most arsenic-based drugs was abandoned with the discovery of antibiotics in the 1940s, but a few remained in use such as those for the treatment of trypanosomiasis. In the 1970s, arsenic trioxide, the active ingredient in a traditional Chinese medicine, was shown to produce dramatic remission of acute promyelocytic leukemia similar to the effect of all-trans retinoic acid."

Arsenic in medicine: past, present and future

Arsenicals are one of the oldest treatments for a variety of human disorders. Although infamous for its toxicity, arsenic is paradoxically a therapeutic agent that has been used since ancient times for the treatment of multiple diseases. The use of most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So here we have vitamin A mentioned alongside one of the most toxic substances that exist.

 

[InChristAlone]

Some here have cognitive dissonance about Peat and vitamin A. He wrote that symptoms decrease linearly with a dose of vitamin A up to 100.000 IU per day. All of his writings implicate that he considered such a dose not problematic per se. Even pro vitamin A researchers would consider this dose highly toxic. He did not straight up recommend people to take such a high dose, but there's no comments from him that it's dangerous beyond temporarily suppressing thyroid. His recommendations led people to build their diet around milk, eggs, orange juice, carrots and liver. Ironically, two medium carrots alone make one reach >100% of the RDA.



I'm thinking along the same lines.

Btw, a couple months ago I read in a local newspaper about a 100 year old man, whom I know because my dad dated his daughter. He is still working. When asked about his diet, he replied that he despises all vegetables.

Then there's the girl with bipolar disorder who has to cry for no reason everyday, and all she craves is sweet potatoes, pumpkin and carrots. Her dad was a bodybuilder and made her eat rice and meat only, so she rebelled and became a vegan.

Or the child who already has OCD with 6 months old, with a grandma who feeds her selfmade carrot and spinach smoothies. The poor child has to arrange everything she sees into a neat row. When she gets some berries, she arranges them in perfect order on her table. When she's in daycare, she cleans up behind the other children.
toxic
Once you open your eyes, this topic is everywhere.


That wasn't a vitamin A deficiency. The alcohol probably transported the retinoic acid everywhere into your body, causing issues.

I had something similar. Pupils were dilated all the time, even outside in the sun, so I was very light sensitive. That went away after taking 10,000 IU of vitamin A once. But I was severely vA toxic, so how does this go together?

Maybe this happens because the retinol replaces the more toxic retinoic acid, or the body moves more vA into the liver out of the blood, during the sudden spike.

Mercury and arsenic are "therapeutic" as well in the short-term. The toxicity of heavy metals is easier to recognize than the toxicity of retinol, but all of them accumulate in the body and cause problems later. It's not a new discovery that toxins can suppress symptoms.

Just look at the first random paper I found on arsenic:

Arsenic in medicine: past, present and future

Arsenicals are one of the oldest treatments for a variety of human disorders. Although infamous for its toxicity, arsenic is paradoxically a therapeutic agent that has been used since ancient times for the treatment of multiple diseases. The use of most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So here we have vitamin A mentioned alongside one of the most toxic substances that exist.

Excellent thoughts. I have been wondering why a large dose of vitamin A could seemingly 'cure' eye problems. Studies have shown in response to a large dose it rapidly disappears from the blood. Seems to be the likely explanation. Studies of people in Africa don't show low hepatic retinol. So why does giving them vit A help anything? We need those answers. More is going on than so called deficiency. From reading the literature on nearly every nutrient it seems malnutrition or alcoholism or some extreme supplementation is the leading cause of 'deficiency' symptoms of anything. Eating plenty of high quality protein and calories of basic foods (that aren't orange colored!) seems to be the cure. And when deficiency symptoms are appearing on your 'healthy' diet it's more likely they are actually toxicity symptoms.