Rugged Vs Soy Boy

[TheBeard]

It's still a mystery to me why some men develop to be rugged and masculine looking, while some are everlasting "soy boys".

Have a look at John Travolta's face: the epitome of masculinity
Big bulky square face with thick facial hair, large neck, leathery skin, no matter whether he is young or old.

Vs Mark Zuckerberg or others, who have the face of a 12 year old that never grew.

Even Ryan Russo after countless AAS cycles still looks 12

What hormones / neurotransmitter / molecule makes you develop into a man rather than a soyboy?

Was it the testosterone levels in the womb and at puberty?
Some can't change their baby faces even after grams of AAS

I would love to know the science behind it

 

[olive]

Prenatal DHT/E2 levels of the mother largely determines the facial development of the child.

 

[Blue Jefe]

Lmfao at calling people soyboys while apparently having a man crush on John Travolta

 

[TheBeard]

Prenatal DHT/E2 levels of the mother largely determines the facial development of the child.

Thanks man!

Have you yourself noticed any facial change after AAS use? Which AAS?

 

[Waremu]

It's still a mystery to me why some men develop to be rugged and masculine looking, while some are everlasting "soy boys".

Have a look at John Travolta's face: the epitome of masculinity
Big bulky square face with thick facial hair, large neck, leathery skin, no matter whether he is young or old.

View attachment 14270

View attachment 14271

Vs Mark Zuckerberg or others, who have the face of a 12 year old that never grew.

View attachment 14272
View attachment 14273


Even Ryan Russo after countless AAS cycles still looks 12

View attachment 14274

What hormones / neurotransmitter / molecule makes you develop into a man rather than a soyboy?

Was it the testosterone levels in the womb and at puberty?
Some can't change their baby faces even after grams of AAS

I would love to know the science behind it

I think there is a difference between having a youthful ‘boyish’ look, and a very androgynous type of boyish look. One can look somewhat masculine and have a boyish or youthful look - similar to a teen boy who has already hit puberty and is developing masculine features, yet still looks youthful and hence ‘boyish.’ Whereas some men have a very youthful boyish look, but more so like a preteen boy who has yet developed more masculine features and looks more feminine or androgynous. For example, I don’t know much about Ryan Russo, but as you mentioned him, I wouldn’t call him a ‘soy boy’ or whatever. Yes he looks somewhat boyish or youthful, but from those pics, to me, he doesn’t look androgynous or feminine like Mark Zuckerberg does. Mark looks more like a prepubescent boy whereas Ryan Russo looks more like a boy who has already hit puberty perhaps. But I don’t even know if I’d say he looks ‘boyish.’ He looks young, but certainly I wouldn’t compare him to Mark Zuckerberg. Too much of an overreach. Much of it is quite subjective too. And speaking of John Travolta, I would actually say that in his younger days he had that type of masculine but boyish look. Like the very athletic boys who have hit puberty already and are on the sports/football team. They are boyish looking yet fairly masculine looking as well. But he certainly didn’t have that androgynous or feminine prepubescent boyish look like Zuckerberg seems to have.

 

[nbznj]

Damn, Travolta really aged poorly. Such a beautiful mop of hair that turned into a slick bald guy with a goatee. Such a disgrace

 

[kyle]

Its from being sedentary

 

[Elkman]

Its from being sedentary

This is so far from the truth. Your facial shape and level of physical and cognitive masculinization/ feminization is determined almost entirely prenatally.

This has already been figured out. For example, at some point in utero trans people underwent a process of either masculinization or feminization that was incongruous with their biological sex. For males, stress levels of the mother play a big role in feminizing the baby. This could be a combination of both cognitive and physical feminization or one or the other. There was a significant increase in the number of homosexual males born during world war 2 in Germany.

Mark Zuckerberg’s facial phenotype was there at birth/ young age. To say that a sedentary life caused it is laughable. It was his biology that led him to a world of intellectual pursuits/ sedentary life instead of to the football field, lol.

People try to survive and make a niche for themselves in a competitive world in ways that suit their biology. To then say that a persons chosen lifestyle CAUSED their biological phenotype is very unsophisticated.

 

[Elkman]

Prenatal DHT/E2 levels of the mother largely determines the facial development of the child.

Yes, this is why people have know since the beginning that a mothers stress is bad for the baby (increase in E2 causing obstructed growth/ feminization, Brain damage, smaller overall size of the baby, etc. Etc.)

 

[Elkman]

A good way to think about it is like this...

Males and females both start off as female. The male XY needs to undergo a process of development and DIFFERENTIATION away from the feminine phenotype/ cognitive organization.

This is a long process that needs many, many things - environmentally, nutritionally, and prior genetic momentum - to go right. Along with many things that are needed in combination to go right, there are many things that can GO WRONG.

If a carrying mother of a male baby undergoes a period of stress during a crucial window of her pregnancy, this will increase levels of E2 which - as Peaters know - is a all-around growth suppressant. Therefore, undue stress will INHIBIT the male fetuses differentiation away fro female into becoming more male.

How ever far along the male fetus makes it in this differentiation process will determine whether he looks more like Russell Crowe or someone more androgynous.

This is why there are so few really masculine looking men in real life, and so many attractive women - it’s because becoming an attractive male requires a much more complicated differentiation process in utero.

***A caveat to all this is the phenotype of the “pretty boy”. I like to think of this type as the “younger brother syndrome.”

You will notice in looking at families with multiple sons that the older sons usually are taller, bigger, more masculine than their younger brothers - although not necessarily more attractive. One way to interpret this - and many have already - is to say that the nutritional stores in the mother after having the first son are depleted and haven’t been given enough time to replenish and to produce another “archetypal” masculine son.

I’m not so sold on this explanation. Younger brothers tend to be prettier, more feminine with traits like blue eyes and empathy seeming more common in them, but I’m not so sure this feminization was the result of say, nutritional deprivation in utero or pregnancy stress. It doesn’t seem like their faces are underdeveloped. In fact pretty boys can have sharp bone structure. So it may be our genes working behind the scenes to even out the gene pool - you get a masculine older son to do the heavy labour and a pretty boy younger son who is better with people.

 

[gaze]

Travolta is not a good example of rugged. dude looks like he’s got high estrogen/prolactin hence why he went bald + had the personality type to feel the need to wear hair plugs. Also it’s a little pathetic to call a kid who had to deal with his friends getting killed by a school shooter a “soy boy”. Its fine to analyze people’s facial features but at least stick to adults

 

[TheBeard]

This is so far from the truth. Your facial shape and level of physical and cognitive masculinization/ feminization is determined almost entirely prenatally.

This has already been figured out. For example, at some point in utero trans people underwent a process of either masculinization or feminization that was incongruous with their biological sex. For males, stress levels of the mother play a big role in feminizing the baby. This could be a combination of both cognitive and physical feminization or one or the other. There was a significant increase in the number of homosexual males born during world war 2 in Germany.

Mark Zuckerberg’s facial phenotype was there at birth/ young age. To say that a sedentary life caused it is laughable. It was his biology that led him to a world of intellectual pursuits/ sedentary life instead of to the football field, lol.

People try to survive and make a niche for themselves in a competitive world in ways that suit their biology. To then say that a persons chosen lifestyle CAUSED their biological phenotype is very unsophisticated.

Agree 100%

 

[TheBeard]

Travolta is not a good example of rugged. dude looks like he’s got high estrogen/prolactin hence why he went bald + had the personality type to feel the need to wear hair plugs. Also it’s a little pathetic to call a kid who had to deal with his friends getting killed by a school shooter a “soy boy”. Its fine to analyze people’s facial features but at least stick to adults

We are having a discussion on biological traits here, that’s not the time and place for empathy.

 

[biffbelvin]

We are having a discussion on biological traits here, that’s not the time and place for empathy.

You could have picked anyone from a pool of hundreds of millions. Choosing that particular teenager is inflammatory and runs the risk of derailing your own thread.

 

[Nebula]

Its from being sedentary

There could be some truth to this. There seems to be some epigenetic adaptations from generations of athletic or activity equivalent to strength training during childhood throughout young adulthood that increase T/DHT.

Most differentiation if its going to happen is before birth, but a lot does sometimes occur during puberty and young adulthood under strong hormonal influence, but it might be several generations of adaptations before strong effects are seen. Although of course epigenetics are still not a deterministic guarantee.

 

[kyle]

There was a significant increase in the number of homosexual males born during world war 2 in Germany.

... It was his biology that led him to a world of intellectual pursuits/ sedentary life instead of to the football field, lol.

People try to survive and make a niche for themselves in a competitive world in ways that suit their biology. To then say that a persons chosen lifestyle CAUSED their biological phenotype is very unsophisticated.

This debate has been hashed out repeatedly - the nature vs. nurture. It's totally circular argument and I can see the validity of your own points but not the absolutism.

There is a simple explanation for homosexuality that is very unpopular but everyone knows is true - father deprivation. Well, if a lot of men died in the war...

There are well nourished men who still have a soyboy aura. I'll see scrawny, stressed out country boys who still look tough.

And by the way - look at some of the 'intellectuals' of the old era. You won't see many soy boys.

Check out Ernest Hemingway.

Urban life wasn't so soyboy inducing because people would walk miles and miles everyday in cities. Well our cities were destroyed and surburbia churns out soyboys because young boys aren't doing anything.

 

[kyle]

There could be some truth to this. There seems to be some epigenetic adaptations from generations of athletic or activity equivalent to strength training during childhood throughout young adulthood that increase T/DHT.

Most differentiation if its going to happen is before birth, but a lot does sometimes occur during puberty and young adulthood under strong hormonal influence, but it might be several generations of adaptations before strong effects are seen. Although of course epigenetics are still not a deterministic guarantee.

The meta belief I see around this forum is still materialism.

A lot of people reject the genetic determinism but then hold a kind of nutritional/epigenetic determinism.

Those are in effect identical ways of thinking and discounts time and will.

 

[TheBeard]

You could have picked anyone from a pool of hundreds of millions. Choosing that particular teenager is inflammatory and runs the risk of derailing your own thread.

I don’t even know who he is, I just picked from the first result page of « soy boy ».

You’re the only one derailing in your own world about nothing, get a grip

 

[TheBeard]

This debate has been hashed out repeatedly - the nature vs. nurture. It's totally circular argument and I can see the validity of your own points but not the absolutism.

There is a simple explanation for homosexuality that is very unpopular but everyone knows is true - father deprivation. Well, if a lot of men died in the war...

There are well nourished men who still have a soyboy aura. I'll see scrawny, stressed out country boys who still look tough.

And by the way - look at some of the 'intellectuals' of the old era. You won't see many soy boys.

Check out Ernest Hemingway.

Urban life wasn't so soyboy inducing because people would walk miles and miles everyday in cities. Well our cities were destroyed and surburbia churns out soyboys because young boys aren't doing anything.

That’s indeed a pattern I’ve repeatedely seen in many gays around me: divorced parents and the mother was the one in charge of them

 

[nbznj]

Can confirm, no father figure, androgynous body growing up. Was bullied for sure by all the farmers who hit puberty super early and acted tough all day. I now have a strong masculine face tho, and I’m very much into girls. Not so much the good ones... At least I’ve become aesthetic with lean mean muscles on that skinny frame. But it’s not BIG. I don’t really care anymore anyway.

Perhaps Zuckerberg and the legit low T modern young guys didn’t even grow up in a hard environment. Just tons of soft lil good boys surrounding them.