“Dopamine fasting/detox” from a bioenergetic pov

[Immanency]

@EustaceBagge
Andrew jordan taterson say"The goal in life in not happyness,it is achievements"

Random say:"what the point of achieving something if it does not provide happyness for your self and/or other?"

Andrew jordan taterson error 404

 

[Sapien]

The problem with this way of thinking about dopamine is that it is all intended to boost productivity. The people that take these methods serious are people that are not content with their lives and want to move on.

The paradoxical part is that to get where you want to be you have to rid yourself of pleasure and work hard, but in the end you want to reach your goals for happiness.

So it is nothing else than delayed gratification where you invest in the future

I agree that this “work hard play later” mentality is depressing and probably not sustainable either

But honestly, sacrificing short term happiness for long term benefit is a good thing in many scenarios. If a dopamine fast was/is the optimal way to achieve this it could be beneficial in the long run.

However, I am not sure even that a dopamine fast is optimal for a “max productivity” stage in life. I think correcting things in diet supplements etc would be far more beneficial for one’s ability to perform effectively than depriving themselves of life’s simple pleasures.

PERHAPS a dopamine detox would be beneficial for productivity (though there are other, more painless ways of going about raising dopamergic activity, reducing distractions, improving productivity).

However, this lifestyle/ intervention is not only being marketed toward that crowd , it is being used as a treatment for depression /addiction. My main issue with the theory is that aspect of it all.

 

[EustaceBagge]

Your right but dont forget the most important part of it all, it originates in america. Everything that originates there has a lot of money involved and most likely a cult following. My observations about americans and fad diets, fad lifestyles etc etc.

If you think your undisciplined I think its a great way to improve discipline, otherwise just leave it be.

 

[Sapien]

If you think your undisciplined I think its a great way to improve discipline

To me true discipline is being able to occasionally partake in something you enjoy without spiraling down into addiction, not the Alcoholics Anonymous esqu “I am an incurable addict who can’t control themself” attitude.

 

[EustaceBagge]

To me true discipline is being able to occasionally partake in something you enjoy without spiraling down into addiction, not the Alcoholics Anonymous esqu “I am an incurable addict who can’t control themself” attitude.

Then we get to the point of legalizing drugs and stuff like that, and I dont agree. I dont see things as individual cases but more as a whole, and in general some things are better avoided discipline or not.

And the point of dopamine fasting is to increase discipline thus productivity, even though you may say such a person lacks the discipline to enjoy himself without reverting to addiction, if he can fully abstain from his vices then can you call him undisciplined? That also requires a lot of willpower.

So whatever works for you as an individual, and people know themselves best. Most important of all, be instinctive and dont lie to yourself. A lot of people do that without knowing.

 

[Sapien]

So whatever works for you as an individual, and people know themselves best. Most important of all, be instinctive and dont lie to yourself. A lot of people do that without knowing.

good perspective. Thank you

 

[Santosh]

The problem with this way of thinking about dopamine is that it is all intended to boost productivity. The people that take these methods serious are people that are not content with their lives and want to move on.

The paradoxical part is that to get where you want to be you have to rid yourself of pleasure and work hard, but in the end you want to reach your goals for happiness.

So it is nothing else than delayed gratification where you invest in the future. Either that or you basically want to become a productivity bot.

Nothing wrong with all of this as its a matter of personal choice, but the more you invest in the system the less your going to go against it. In that sense what has been posted in this thread is true, it is a way of being compliant. That is what makes it so dangerous, the moment you stop caring about your pleasures your willing to do stupid ***t just to feel like you've achieved something. Imagine living in a pod while only eating bugs but still be called a good citizen. Doesn't this dopamine fasting make you the ideal candidate for such a lifestyle? Very productive.

I have you ever been on a paradisiac beach with no caffeine, hot girls, cars and bikes to drive, unlimited food and unlimited movies ?

Well I have, and it sucks.

Without caffeine and dopamine, your brain doesn't enjoy what it's given, even if you are in paradise.

Dopamine isn't only to achieve, it's also to enjoy whatever you have achieved.

Life without dopamine is bland and passes through you.

 

[-Luke-]

It's been a while since I've dealt with this issue. But what's the problem here? There are at least two theories.

Theory I: If we have too much of what is called "supernormal stimuli", dopamine receptors in the brain "shrink" as a sort of self-protection.
Theory II: People don't produce enough dopamine during mundane tasks and are therefore not motivated enough to do anything else than staring at their phones, tv and porn websites etc.

So dopamine could be normal in one case (and receptors are the problem) or dopamine itself is the problem. Or a combination of both. Or something else. If theory I is true, sure, a "dopamine detox" could help to let the brain "rebalance" itself. But even then the question is whether the consequences of a detox would be anything lasting. And as far as I know, that theory is pretty controversial. I remember one study on porn addicts that didn't find any problems with dopamine receptors, I'll try to find it. If theory II is true, then I don't see how "less dopamine" could be the solution to "not enough dopamine". Plus it raises the question whether the low dopamine is cause or effect of the problem in sluggish and unmotivated people. If it's the cause, the "just do a dopamine detox, bro!" wouldn't make much sense.

I think the focus on dopamine and especially the focus on dopamine as a villain is quite misleading. Having said that, I don't see any value in obsessive social media and smartphone use, internet porn, watching tv for 10 hours a day etc. and I think the idea of "supernormal stimulus" is at least somewhat correct. But what I don't like is that a lot of those people lump everything together. "You look at your smartphone for 12 hours a day? Just get up at 4 AM, take a cold shower, fast for at least 16 hours a day, take these 4 supplements from my supplement shop, and the problem will subside."

 

[Sapien]

I think the focus on dopamine and especially the focus on dopamine as a villain is quite misleading. Having said that, I don't see any value in obsessive social media and smartphone use, internet porn, watching tv for 10 hours a day etc. and I think the idea of "supernormal stimulus" is at least somewhat correct

Yeah I agree 100%, I should have explained that better in my OP.

my thoughts are tho that engaging in those activity are a symptom of being in a low dopanergic state. People do things that help them escape stress, and instant gratification is a way to escape the stress of boredom brought about by low dopamine. Contrary to the mainstream view of addiction where the substance/ activity is the cause of your problems.

If one were to “dopamine fast”, I think there’s a real risk of falling right back into these behaviors. The better solution imo would be correcting the root cause of the problem (dopamine disfunction, problems w brain energy etc.) w diet/supplements, not just relying on willpower

 

[Sapien]

my thoughts are tho that engaging in those activity are a symptom of being in a low dopanergic state. People do things that help them escape stress, and instant gratification is a way to escape the stress of boredom brought about by low dopamine. Contrary to the mainstream view of addiction where the substance/ activity is the cause of your problems.

The better solution imo would be correcting the root cause of the problem (dopamine disfunction, problems w brain energy etc.) w diet/supplements, not just relying on willpower

“As someone who has struggled with addiction to both drugs (meth, opiates, cannibas etc) and alcohol, I completely agree with Peat's hypothesis. Once I sorted the underlying issues, and created a better, more stable lifestyle, my apparent addiction to drugs and alcohol ceased. I have been told many times by former counselors/psychs, that it's "unbelievable" I can drink alcohol socially without issues and also take pain meds with codeine or something similar and not relapse. It's honestly like it never happened. And going even further, some of the lingering issues I've had (emotional/moods) have managed to dissipate since I started taking thyroid and "Peating". Very hard to explain to people though”

From the thread “peats views on alcoholism/addiction”

So basically I am approaching all of this with the notion that there is no “addiction”

 

[Sapien]

have you ever been on a paradisiac beach with no caffeine, hot girls, cars and bikes to drive, unlimited food and unlimited movies ?

Well I have, and it sucks.

Funny anecdote, but I see what you’re saying and I agree.

I know plenty of people who’s lives seem great on paper but I can tell they are unhappy, probabaly due to dysfunctions with neurotransmitter (dopamine seratonin gaba) and steroid (dhea preg progrest test etc) balance

 

[Sapien]

If one were to “dopamine fast”, I think there’s a real risk of falling right back into these behaviors

Like @LadyRae said

Sounds like another path to binge/restriction

 

[SamYo123]

@AllHailHaidut hello,

It is.

It is.

voluntarism is propagated harshly on social media, as if the main reason why people don't feel like they would like is their lack of will, and as if will in itself will bring people what they want, it's is a fraud, people just need to do less of the draining things, and be aware ande experience the restorative things like sun exposure, being with enjoyable people, eating optimal foods

there are influencers on youtube like David Goggins who shouts at the camera "IF YOU ARE BIG IN POOR HEALTH AND YOU DON'T FEEL WELL IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE A LAZY PIECE OF ***t" it's quite popular.

they managed to make people believe that something good for the person can be unpleasant to do, whereas in reality a good part of unpleasant things that are propagated as beneficial are bad for the person;
in some rarer cases doing these unpleasant things can be beneficial in the long run.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl6TZn6gDSf/

 

[Blossom]

Is this what they’re teaching in medical school?

“Imagining little gremlins”?

Wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

 

[-Luke-]

Yeah I agree 100%, I should have explained that better in my OP.

my thoughts are tho that engaging in those activity are a symptom of being in a low dopanergic state. People do things that help them escape stress, and instant gratification is a way to escape the stress of boredom brought about by low dopamine. Contrary to the mainstream view of addiction where the substance/ activity is the cause of your problems.

If one were to “dopamine fast”, I think there’s a real risk of falling right back into these behaviors. The better solution imo would be correcting the root cause of the problem (dopamine disfunction, problems w brain energy etc.) w diet/supplements, not just relying on willpower

That is pretty much what I think. In my view addiction is neither a disease nor a pure choice, but rather some form of self medication. I don't know if a low dopamine state is the cause or one of the causes, but it might be.