Do I Need Fat?

[Morning Star]

As often as I read Ray extoling the virtues of Saturated fats, I've also see him advise us to strictly limit intake of any and all fats. Knowing that the body has exogenous pathaways to synthesize needed fat and interested in the vitality enhancing properties of the mead acid sequence I'm considering eliminating dietery fat. What Are your guy's thoughts on this. Is this wisereckless, or is it complex and dependant upon circumstances.
I'm coming form 3 years of strict Jack Kruse inspired paleo, can of oysters every day and tons of DHA+EPA from, Herring salmon, mackeral, any oily fish most day of the week. I was a staunch foe of carbohydrates and dowsed any and everthing in plentiful fats. Granted I avoided all seed oils, But fatty pork and nuts were staples along with the seafood.

 

[Such_Saturation]

If you go really low there will be cravings, just like for carbohydrates.

 

[tara]

Welcome Morning Star,

or is it complex and dependant upon circumstances.

I'm picking this. :)

You may be able to go really low in fat. Some people benefit from this.

I don't know that it is practically possible to eat food that meets all your nutritional needs and not get at least a little fat.

Since you probably have some PUFA stored in your tissues, there may be benefit from eating a little saturated fat regularly to help dilute and displace this as it comes out of tissues and into circulation. I don't think this requires large quantities - eg a tsp of coconut oil with meals might be plenty.

A little fat with meals can help with making them easier to digest.

It is possible that the transition from HFLC to LFHC could be a bit bumpy. Some people seem to come out of HFLC with their sugar metabolism somewhat deranged. I'm not confident that I know what is best in this situation for everyone. It may be that allowing a gradual transition will be easier, but some people seem to be able to improve glucose oxidation significantly by getting fat intake very low, and relying on carbs. Some seem to do better with more sugary foods, some with more starchy ones. There is a chance you might hit some hyperglycemia esp. in the beginning - how well it will resolve while continuing is not something I can predict for an individual.

Several of the b-vits are needed for good glucose metabolism, a well as good mineral supply.

I'd recommend reading Peat's articles on sugar if you haven't yet. eg:
Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.
Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

One of the points he makes is that transient hyperglycemia is not adequate justification for heavy diabetic treatments.

It can be hard for some people to eat enough calories without fat. Undereating for prolonged periods can contribute to suppressing metabolism and limiting maintenance, repair and development of structure.

I have my doubts about the wisdom and usefulness of brutally overriding one's appetites with restrictive diets. Our appetite is an evolutionary feature honed to help us meet our needs, esp. wrt sugars, protein, and som eminerals and vitamins. I don't think our intellect and currently available information can be relied on to always do better. My hunch would be to see how far you can go in the direction of lowering fat without overriding what your body tells you that it wants, and while meeting all your other nutritional needs. Watch how your body responds, and adjust accordingingly. If you get cravings for fat, include some more.

 

[Richiebogie]

If you want an extreme diet, Andrew Perlot is a fit strict long term raw vegan who eats mainly fresh fruit (including cucumber and tomato) plus lettuce, carrot and some pumpkin etc.

He also recommends a bit of fat else his libido suffers.

He takes a bit of avocado or raw tree nuts but I'm sure Peat would prefer coconut. I'm not sure if Andrew Perlot has heard of Ray Peat so I might ask him to consider trialling coconut in place of avocado and raw nuts!

(Andrew Perlot eats some dried fruit when travelling).

I think Peat prefers lots of low fat milk to lettuce which would also provide some fat.

I am experimenting with various things in a rather ad hoc way so a bit harder to use as a case study than someone like Andrew Perlot!

 

[whit]

Welcome morningstar,
All good advise. There I is much to be considered. Good news is you've survived and the wonderful world of Peating awaits.
I was on a similar track as you. You might consider going slow at first. Find some fruits that agree with you. I found carrot salad cheese and kombuca or vinegar dressing to be helpful for my transition. Coconut oil and milk are still my steady staple.
Hope this helps,
Whit

 

[Violence]

I'm coming form 3 years of strict Jack Kruse inspired paleo, can of oysters every day and tons of DHA+EPA from, Herring salmon, mackeral, any oily fish most day of the week. I was a staunch foe of carbohydrates and dowsed any and everthing in plentiful fats. Granted I avoided all seed oils, But fatty pork and nuts were staples along with the seafood.[/QU

Jack kruse....right. That guy is talks like a cult leader from some simpsons episode. Most of what he says sounds like some parody of something else. He's so over the top and talking so much nonsense, i wonder what state of mind one has to be in to take him seriously. It's beyond me. I guess we are all very, very different.

 

[whit]

As often as I read Ray extoling the virtues of Saturated fats, I've also see him advise us to strictly limit intake of any and all fats. Knowing that the body has exogenous pathaways to synthesize needed fat and interested in the vitality enhancing properties of the mead acid sequence I'm considering eliminating dietery fat. What Are your guy's thoughts on this. Is this wisereckless, or is it complex and dependant upon circumstances.
I'm coming form 3 years of strict Jack Kruse inspired paleo, can of oysters every day and tons of DHA+EPA from, Herring salmon, mackeral, any oily fish most day of the week. I was a staunch foe of carbohydrates and dowsed any and everthing in plentiful fats. Granted I avoided all seed oils, But fatty pork and nuts were staples along with the seafood.

Isn't Jack Kruze the brain surgeon who does the ice baths? Whats that like?

 

[mmb82]

I don't think there is any way to get less than roughly 15 - 20 grams of fat in your diet (depending on calorie intake) because of the trace amounts of fat in other foods. If even possible to keep fat intake that low, your food will be unpalatable after a couple of weeks and you will likely develop cravings. Being that you just came off of a super strict diet, why swing to another extreme and restrict fat intake altogether?

On that note, my opinion is that you should focus on not adding extra fat to meals, but also not avoiding fat completely. For example, drink fat free milk, but put a tsp of coconut oil in your milky coffee or avoid putting cheese on your food, but don't fear cooking meats and seafood in butter. You can avoid eggs if you really want to, but don't force yourself to eat overly lean meat or none at all due to the fat content.

By the way, I agree with tara that if you want to keep fat intake low, the "best" fat to add to meals is coconut oil. It is highly saturated, is rich in MCTs that help to inhibit the liver's formation of fat, and has other pro-thyroid effects. (link to Ray's Coconut Oil article should be in the text). I also agree with tara about fat being beneficial for digestion. Peat has mentioned in a previous interview (with Josh Rubin, I think) that eating a meal with all three macronutrients is "best" for your digestion. Fat will help your body absorb certain vitamins and minerals in other foods.

Finally, I hate to do the "Danny Roddy" thing and give you advice saying "the best thing to do is experiment and see what works best for you", but that is probably the best thing to do...experiment. My opinion of what you should do may sound great, but work terribly in practice. Some people don't do well with very low fat while others thrive on it. Since you are coming off of a higher fat diet, the first few weeks of lowering fat and increasing carbs may be weird enough for your body. Things may change over time, so as you try things out, pay close attention to your body. Quality of sleep, pulse, temperature, bowel movements, and libido are some things you can take note of and compare as you transition your diet.

Best of luck to you!

 

[DaveFoster]

There are advantages to a fat-free diet.

I eat about 2-4 grams of fat per day.

Disadvantages of a fat-free diet include loss of libido and markers of inflammation. Mead acid is anti inflammatory so there's that as well.

Please share your experience on Jack Kruse's protocol. He's very interesting in his theories.

 

[Stryker]

less than 5 grams a day gave me abit of anxiety like feelings and loss of libido/erectile function..

but i think in general low fat is the way to go , somewhere between 15 and 30 grams a day is the sweet spot.

endless energy , never sore or stiff from work great moods are some of things i experienced from reducing fat intake.

for a while i experimented with increasing fat to over 100 grams a day all of it being coconut and milk fat but i didnt gain anything positive from it just made me feel like ***t haha

good luck

 

[superhuman]

@Stryker love it. What about protein intake? have you experienced with different amount and what has worked the best for you?

 

[thegiantess]

There are advantages to a fat-free diet.

I eat about 2-4 grams of fat per day.

Disadvantages of a fat-free diet include loss of libido and markers of inflammation. Mead acid is anti inflammatory so there's that as well.

Please share your experience on Jack Kruse's protocol. He's very interesting in his theories.

How on earth do you keep fat that low?

 

[Stryker]

@Stryker love it. What about protein intake? have you experienced with different amount and what has worked the best for you?

i think i gauge how much protein i really need by feeling of fullness in muscle (like how pumped up they feel in general) and positive mood , im a very active person bricklayer for a job and workout and go for walks i think 150g a day is definately enough which works out to about a gram per pound for me

 

[bobbybobbob]

I don't think anyone's ever laid out a strong case for going low fat. Low carb is dumb, but if there are good reasons to not get a substantial fraction of calories from milk fat or coconut oil I've not seen them argued well.

Just go by taste. I tried going low fat and had great difficulty feeling sated after meals. I'd wind up snacking, which is an annoying distraction. I returned to putting quite a lot of butter on potatoes and vegetables and it is obviously better. With plenty of fat I also find it far easier to stick to three squares and a snack, which makes portion control easier.

 

[Zachs]

I don't think anyone's ever laid out a strong case for going low fat. Low carb is dumb, but if there are good reasons to not get a substantial fraction of calories from milk fat or coconut oil I've not seen them argued well.

Just go by taste. I tried going low fat and had great difficulty feeling sated after meals. I'd wind up snacking, which is an annoying distraction. I returned to putting quite a lot of butter on potatoes and vegetables and it is obviously better. With plenty of fat I also find it far easier to stick to three squares and a snack, which makes portion control easier.

Ridding tissues of pufa is the main issue.

Also some studies show that all saturated fats can be inflammatory to the cardiovascular system (a cause of cvd), so a lot of fat, even saturated, is not optimal for cardiovascular health.


Personally I don't believe fat is needed in the diet. Bacteria in the colon can synthesize quite a bit of saturated fat, the body can also produce certain fats and cholesterol. Plants have pro vitamin forms of FSV's.

That said, it's impossible to not get at least 3-5g of fat in your diet even from non fat foods. Trace amounts add up.

 

[DaveFoster]

How on earth do you keep fat that low?

Skim milk, orange juice, and sugar.

 

[thegiantess]

Skim milk, orange juice, and sugar.

Is that all you eat... Errrr, drink? Really? I'm impressed, but I'm not sure why.

 

[DaveFoster]

Is that all you eat... Errrr, drink? Really? I'm impressed, but I'm not sure why.

That's it. Sometimes I'll have some Gatorade if I need some extra fluids.

 

[whit]

Skim milk, orange juice, and sugar.

Skim milk=cow water
where are the fat soluble vitamins coming from?
Aren't most skim milks made from powdered milk?

 

[DaveFoster]

Skim milk=cow water
where are the fat soluble vitamins coming from?
Aren't most skim milks made from powdered milk?

What's a fat-soluble vitamin?

I supplement A, D, E, and K.