Dhea And Cortisol Thoughts

[zane93]

Just got my DHEA and Cortisol saliva labs in wanted to get the communities thoughts. I have issues waking up around 3 or 4 in the am for no reason could it be my DHEA moving way up at 12 am(that is the only one out of "range")? I believe that the cortisol looks good. fyi... I am a 36 yr old male with no thyroid and no weight issues.

Adrenal Stress Profile
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHEA-S Panel (Saliva)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHEA-S 8AM
8.30
nmol/L
1.60 ---
18.50
DHEA-S 8PM
3.39
nmol/L
1.00 ---
10.50
DHEA-S 12AM
12.18
nmol/L
0.80 ---
8.30
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cortisol Panel (Saliva)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cortisol 8AM (LC/MS/MS)
15.00
nmol/L
5.50 ---
24.80
Cortisol 12PM
7.67
nmol/L
3.80 ---
13.20
Cortisol 4PM
3.35
nmol/L
2.20 ---
9.40
Cortisol 8PM
2.40
nmol/L
1.60 ---
4.40
Cortisol 12AM
1.87
nmol/L
0.80 ---
3.30
Cortisol 4AM
8.15
nmol/L
1.10 ---
9.40

 

[zane93]

I found this talking about high DHEA at night and that directly relates to low melatonin. This would explain the sleep issues. I can not find much info about my particular results.

Melatonin - the sleep hormone - DoctorMyhill

"There is a close relationship between melatonin and DHEA. If one is abnormal the other is also likely to be! With stress, and the commonest stress is nutritional such as low blood sugar, DHEA levels run high, so melatonin may be low and this further impairs sleep.

Now, if I see an Adrenocortex Stress Profile (salivary) with high levels of DHEA at night, I prescribe a melatonin supplement.

There is also an interesting relationship between brain neurotransmitters, DHEA and melatonin. The raw material is an amino acid tryptophan which is converted in the body to 5 hydroxytryptophan from which serotonin (the "happy" neurotransmitter which Prozac works on) and then melatonin.

Tryptophan -> 5 hydroxy tryptophan -> serotonin -> melatonin"

 

[DaveFoster]

List your diet.

 

[zane93]

List your diet.

I'm starting to wonder if I have an estrogen problem...

I eat 99% organic, 80% of all vegetables are seasonal from a local farm, all my beef is local grass fed, no gluten, and fish maybe once every 3 months. I do not do or feel well with milk it causes too much mucus in me.

Breakfast:
Buckwheat, 2 duck or 4-6 quail eggs, a protein shake every other day or so, and occasional fresh 8oz carrot juice once or twice a week, coffee with coconut Honey cinnamon, 4% cottage cheese, about 8 oz of pure grape juice, and potato cooked in coconut oil
Lunch:
Medium salad(non iceberg), maybe a peanut butter protein bar and or coconut energy bar, maybe some beef bone broth soup or some kind of beef 2-4 times a week, coffee with coconut Honey cinnamon, low-fat cottage cheese with probiotics.
Dinner:
I tend to eat light most of the week usual all vegetarian seasonal meal with a potato on occasion. For my heavier dinners it is usually includes a tomato sauce or some kind of carb. and a homemade pizza once a week.

I snack during the day some fruit, juice, cottage cheese, maybe a protein bar. On weekends I tend to eat more beef.

I honestly find it hard to eat this much food most of the time but I just shove it down anyways.

 

[tara]

for no reason

Lol.

I honestly find it hard to eat this much food most of the time but I just shove it down anyways.

Have you tallied up how much carbs, protein, etc on average? Cronometer or other tools can help.

One way to get woken up in the night is to have adrenaline rise to maintain blood sugars if glycogen storage is low. Does a tiny sweet snack when you wake up settle you back to sleep again?

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm starting to wonder if I have an estrogen problem...

I eat 99% organic, 80% of all vegetables are seasonal from a local farm, all my beef is local grass fed, no gluten, and fish maybe once every 3 months. I do not do or feel well with milk it causes too much mucus in me.

Breakfast:
Buckwheat, 2 duck or 4-6 quail eggs, a protein shake every other day or so, and occasional fresh 8oz carrot juice once or twice a week, coffee with coconut Honey cinnamon, 4% cottage cheese, about 8 oz of pure grape juice, and potato cooked in coconut oil
Lunch:
Medium salad(non iceberg), maybe a peanut butter protein bar and or coconut energy bar, maybe some beef bone broth soup or some kind of beef 2-4 times a week, coffee with coconut Honey cinnamon, low-fat cottage cheese with probiotics.
Dinner:
I tend to eat light most of the week usual all vegetarian seasonal meal with a potato on occasion. For my heavier dinners it is usually includes a tomato sauce or some kind of carb. and a homemade pizza once a week.

I snack during the day some fruit, juice, cottage cheese, maybe a protein bar. On weekends I tend to eat more beef.

I honestly find it hard to eat this much food most of the time but I just shove it down anyways.

You do. Your diet is horrendous. Everything in bold needs to go.

 

[zane93]

Lol.

Have you tallied up how much carbs, protein, etc on average? Cronometer or other tools can help.

One way to get woken up in the night is to have adrenaline rise to maintain blood sugars if glycogen storage is low. Does a tiny sweet snack when you wake up settle you back to sleep again?

I just started using Cronometer but it can be a pain because almost every meal I eat is made from scratch. I dont think it is very accurate for me but here is what it gave me for one day.
Cals 1879 kcal
Protein 56 g
Carbs 130 g
Fat 93.8 g
I think they should be higher except maybe the fat.

I will try something sweet tonight when I wake up.

 

[tara]

I think they should be higher except maybe the fat.

I agree - eg treble carbs and double protein. If what you are already eating seems like a lot to you, then I guess you have been undereating for quite a while. This could be a key cause for various energy-deficiency issues, including hormone disruption.
My pick would be this is probably the first thing to tackle before getting into anything more technical like micromanaging hormones. Doesn't matter how finely tuned your engines - if they are short of fuel and building materials, they won't produce enough energy or be able to maintain and repair the system properly. I don't know if it is best to increase immediately or more gradually.
I would still guess it is useful to keep PUFA consumption as low as you practically can, but eating is more important than eating 'perfect' food all the time.
Here are more thoughts on the subject.
Recovery from undereating - Youreatopia | Ray Peat Forum

You do. Your diet is horrendous. Everything in bold needs to go.

Zane, I wouldn't recommend removing any of these foods (except possibly the peanut butter) until you have something better to replace them with.

 

[zane93]

@tara I agree with you and @DavidFoster I need to change my diet. I have been gradually changing my diet believe it or not. Being new to Peat and am still processing things (so much info). I usually never just jump into diet changes until I have done some prep work so I don’t fall on my face and just go back to what I was doing. I will remove the peanut butter I really don’t enjoy it much anyway. Your suggested thread is excellent thanks.

 

[tara]

I have been gradually changing my diet believe it or not. Being new to Peat and am still processing things (some much info). I usually never just jump into diet changes until I have done some prep work so I don’t fall on my face and just go back to what I was doing.

It seems quite reasonable to me to change your diet gradually - hopefully you can notice more easily which changes serve you well. I was enjoying buckwheat or qinoa pancakes with jam or fruit salad for breakfast some days when I started out here, and I don't think they were the worst foods, but I eventually lost interest in them when I added more foods.
I would not try to force your body with hormone supps at least until you have got nutrition (incl. calories) up into the normal range for a while, though.

 

[zane93]

I was enjoying buckwheat or qinoa pancakes with jam or fruit salad for breakfast some days when I started out here, and I don't think they were the worst foods, but I eventually lost interest in them when I added more foods.

I honestly though buckwheat was / is great because of its ability lower estrogen. I enjoy it with honey and fruit but it does fill you up and does not deliver many cals.

 

[tara]

I honestly though buckwheat was / is great because of its ability lower estrogen. I enjoy it with honey and fruit but it does fill you up and does not deliver many cals.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it. Just add lots of honey and fruit etc. Delicious with a little cream, too. And have another meal a couple of hours later. :)

 

[Giraffe]

occasional fresh 8oz carrot juice once or twice a week

I would replace the carrot juice with grated carrot, eaten between meals, so the fiber does [edit to add: not] interfere with nutrient absorption. The grated carrot has antibacterial effect, helps to keep endotoxin low and helps the liver with detoxification. When you juice the carrot, you destroy the fiber, plus absorb a lot of the carotene, which can be anti-thyroid (if you don't convert it to vitamin A, happens in people with sluggish liver and hypothyroid folk).

Carrot Salad, Bamboo Shoots, Mushrooms | Ray Peat Forum

 

[zane93]

I would replace the carrot juice with grated carrot, eaten between meals, so the fiber does interfere with nutrient absorption. The grated carrot has antibacterial effect, helps to keep endotoxin low and helps the liver with detoxification. When you juice the carrot, you destroy the fiber, plus absorb a lot of the carotene, which can be anti-thyroid (if you don't convert it to vitamin A, happens in people with sluggish liver and hypothyroid folk).

Carrot Salad, Bamboo Shoots, Mushrooms | Ray Peat Forum

Good info about carrot juice being anti-thyroid thanks! I do have a sluggish liver and do coffee enemas on occasion any issues with that?

 

[thegiantess]

I was assuming @DaveFoster was being hyperbolic by telling you to basically stop eating everything you listed. I don't see a problem with most of it, eggs, cottage cheese, coffee, etc. Carrot juice is an odd choice, but if you like whatever. I would prob just eat the carrot. And buckwheat isn't perfect but if you like it and it doesn't give you issues I don't see the problem. I often eat buckwheat pancakes but I soak the buckwheat in buttermilk overnight to make it more digestible. The problem I see is really you eat high fat and low ish carb. Keep your foods, reduce the fat, add carbs in the form of fruit and see if that makes any noticeable difference.

 

[Giraffe]

do coffee enemas on occasion any issues with that?

Very old treatment for cancer. I assume that they are helpful. :)

 

[DaveFoster]

@thegiantess It's the quantity of eggs. Ray wouldn't recommend 4-6/day.

 

[zane93]

@thegiantess It's the quantity of eggs. Ray wouldn't recommend 4-6/day.

I have an allergy to chicken eggs so I eat duck, quail, or other if available. 4-6 quail eggs are about 1.5 to 2 chicken eggs. Quail eggs are very health but have a little more cholesterol than others. I don’t always eat eggs in the morning about 4-5 times a week at most.

I increased my fat intake so I could try to put a little weight back on and don’t plan on leaving this high for very long.

 

[zane93]

Very old treatment for cancer. I assume that they are helpful. :)

Yes, I do enjoy the benefits but not the process

 

[tara]

I increased my fat intake so I could try to put a little weight back on and don’t plan on leaving this high for very long.

It looks like you need the calories. My pick would be don't lower the fat unless/until you can reliably get plenty of calories from carbs you can enjoy.