Zinc supplements and insomnia, any idea of the mechanism behind it?

[Beatrix_]

Did you take copper to fix your copper deficiency?

I took Zinc + Copper 15:1

 

[FitnessMike]

This seems to align the most with my experience. I have deficient copper and crruloplasmin. The last 2 years everyone I talked to was looking through the lens of copper is toxic in all cases, you have hidden copper toxicity, TAKE MORE ZINC. Zinc no matter what dose causes insane insomnia. Higher doses just make it worse.

I also suspected that it is because of lowering cortisol causing increased adrenaline. I think it’s a similar mechanism for magnesium and other supps that should help sleep by lowering cortisol, but cause insane insomnia in me.

Did you take copper to fix your copper deficiency?

I don’t think that’s the way either but am open to all ideas.

what tests do you base your deficiency on? Have you done hair mineral analysis as recommended here earlier?

I do remember magnesium supplements orally did give me insomnia in the past, but magnesium baths which I do most of the days are always helping my sleep out.

Another thing, while zinc causes insomnia it also makes me feel great and raises my pulse, whereas magnesium orally only insomnia.

 

[PeterSN]

zinc supplements could potentially create histamine overload due to lowering copper (DAO) for specific time window. Histamine seems to have some kind of sleep-wake cycle regulation, specifically at the H-1 receptor. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1544319115305872

I also have personal anecdotal evidence of using H1-receptor antagonist drugs like quetipin to quickly fall asleep in the presence of insomnia.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think it‘s much better to eat red meat or oysters regularly to obtain zinc than supplementing it in my opinion.

Your copper and zinc status is very good, also both in a good ratio, so I see no problem with that.

I think I ran into problems with chronic zinc supplementation. These days, I don’t supplement any minerals/metals, just taking a few missing B vitamins from single-ingredient powders.

 

[Ismail]

Seconding copper toxicity. I experienced this too for a while when I began high dose zinc. Testicles hurt a bit too, which is another common symptom of copper elimination. These days zinc is making me sleep better.

Do you remember how long your insomnia lasted whilst you were high dosing zinc?

 

[FitnessMike]

I think it‘s much better to eat red meat or oysters regularly to obtain zinc than supplementing it in my opinion.

Your copper and zinc status is very good, also both in a good ratio, so I see no problem with that.

I think I ran into problems with chronic zinc supplementation. These days, I don’t supplement any minerals/metals, just taking a few missing B vitamins from single-ingredient powders.

Oysters are on the way and I'm not planning on skipping my beef anymore, but the zinc from supps was so profound, I only hope its due to deficiency, so i can correct it in time with food.

 

[youngsinatra]

Oysters are on the way and I'm not planning on skipping my beef anymore, but the zinc from supps was so profound, I only hope its due to deficiency, so i can correct it in time with food.

And before anyone scares you off from the oysters because they have copper in them:

[Copper deficiency myelopathy probably caused by long-lasting daily excessive intake of zink] - PubMed

We report a 39-year-old woman with slowly progressive spastic gait and paresthesia in the lower extremities. Cervical spinal MRI revealed high intensity in the dorsal column from vertebrae C2 to C7. Laboratory findings showed normal vitamin B12 and low serum copper level. By lifestyle history...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The zinc:copper ratio in oysters is so high, you won’t really absorb much of that copper anyway. In this study, the lady consumed 15-20 oysters (~150mg zinc and 14mg copper!) a day and turned copper deficient, really bad.

 

[charlie]

Oysters are on the way and I'm not planning on skipping my beef anymore, but the zinc from supps was so profound, I only hope its due to deficiency, so i can correct it in time with food.

He explains in the video how to test for copper toxicity:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI2GwXRlXt8&t=1s

 

[TheSir]

Do you remember how long your insomnia lasted whilst you were high dosing zinc?

Not long, it tapered off gradually over a week or two at 60-75mg a day.

 

[Ismail]

Not long, it tapered off gradually over a week or two at 60-75mg a day.

Thank you

Assuming you initially did the high dosing zinc to reduce your copper toxicity?

Which form of zinc did you use?

 

[TheSir]

Thank you

Assuming you initially did the high dosing zinc to reduce your copper toxicity?

Which form of zinc did you use?

Bisglycinate. I'm taking it to buffer my sensitive nervous system and to reduce cellular Na/K ratio. Been maintaining this dose for the last six months. The copper elimination is just a bonus.

 

[Ismail]

cellular Na/K

Excuse my ignorance, but I would’ve assumed cellular Na/K would’ve been a good thing? Unless your ratio is totally off? If so, how did you know that it was off?

 

[TheSir]

Excuse my ignorance, but I would’ve assumed cellular Na/K would’ve been a good thing? Unless your ratio is totally off? If so, how did you know that it was off?

Good ratio is about 2.5 to 4, mine is slightly above that. When it's above 2.5 zinc is taken, and when it's below copper & manganese is taken. I test my hair every few months.

 

[Ismail]

Good ratio is about 2.5 to 4, mine is slightly above that. When it's above 2.5 zinc is taken, and when it's below copper & manganese is taken. I test my hair every few months.

Oh ok gotcha, thank you

 

[Deadpool]

what tests do you base your deficiency on? Have you done hair mineral analysis as recommended here earlier?

I do remember magnesium supplements orally did give me insomnia in the past, but magnesium baths which I do most of the days are always helping my sleep out.

Another thing, while zinc causes insomnia it also makes me feel great and raises my pulse, whereas magnesium orally only insomnia.

I did test with a Walsh practitioner. Serum zinc is low and copper is deficient and ceruloplasmin as well. Also did a hair mineral analysis test and copper looked normal on there, but they still say it could be hidden copper toxicity.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“High doses of Calcium, Zinc or Magnesium
As noted above with the Iron and Calcium combo above, Calcium will compete for absorption with other minerals. Since Calcium can affect how your body absorbs Iron, it can also affect the absorption of Zinc and Magnesium, too.”

“If you’re taking a Zinc supplement, don’t take it at the same time as Copper, Iron, or Phosphorus supplements.”

https://www.naturemade.com/blogs/health-articles/what-vitamins-shouldn-t-be-taken-together#:~:text=If%20you're%20taking%20a,reduce%20absorption%20of%20each%20other.

 

[ddjd]

Anything that lowers nitric oxide will cause insomnia

 

[Deadpool]

Anything that lowers nitric oxide will cause insomnia

Very interesting, as for example b1 which raises co2 causes insane insomnia for me as well. But zinc? Shouldnt it raise nitric oxide?

 

[FitnessMike]

"Zinc inhibits AchE" it might be connected to acetylcholine, insomnia from zinc

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Taking zinc orally, 5 or 10 mg, can replenish the body's stores in a few days, but the supplement can oxidize other nutrients in the stomach or intestine, so it isn't good to use it for a long time.” -Ray Peat e-mail exchange

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com