Why Can I Only Run On Catecholamines And Not On Thyroid?

[lampofred]

You have the opposite problem as me. I am parasympathetic dominant by default. I chill out, verging on apathy. What works for me, iron-clad, is more protein and fat and slightly less carb (maybe 30% of calories as carbs). The opposite, high carb (65%+ of calories), could be your fix.

How long after eating do you feel hungry again? Are you the type to forget a meal, and thrive on lighter foods? I think about food all day until I eat something ultra satiating, like steak fried in coconut oil and garlic, with whole milk (for example).

I too am parasympathetic dominant by default, any little thing that relaxes me plummets my metabolism. My basal metabolism is so low that I have to be under constant stress in order to function at all. I have actually been trying to raise adrenaline/cortisol for a while because I think having those stress hormones is better than being nonfunctional but I'm scared I'm starting to burn out so I'm trying to shift from cortisol to thyroid.

I do agree that low fat and high carb would be good for me but I try to do that already.

I used to get hungry pretty quickly but after prolonged PUFA avoidance, acclimation to coffee, and taking vitamin D, I can go almost 24 hours without getting hypoglycemic symptoms. Pretty happy about that.

 

[lampofred]

Interesting that your TSH is low but t4 and t3 are also low. Have you looked into this? Maybe pituitary issue?

I think high cortisol suppressing thyroid but low thyroid causing high cortisol. I think RP recommends vit D, t4+t3, t3 only for this, but I've tried them and still can't break out of the vicious loop.

Not that it would directly affect your main problem, but I'd bring that cholesterol up a bit if I were you.

I actually feel that it is connected to the main problem. Vit D should spare sugar allowing more cholesterol production, and it should lower cortisol leading to more thyroid activity, fixing both issues, but vit D hasn't been enough.

Thinks that lower cortisol like alcohol and oversleeping. Have you tried anything else that lower cortisol, like an adaptogen? If so, do you respond the same?

I think Vit D is one of the few healthy ways to lower cortisol, since most other things that lower cortisol end up lowering functionality, but so far taking it hasn't helped me respond to thyroid.

Edit: oops lol I lost track and accidentally responded to you twice.

Raw egg yolk maybe? Like 5 or 6 per day

I feel like that could cause phosphate overload and hypoglycemia but I guess it's something I could try.

I remember when I took methylene blue for the first time. I felt like a pressure was let out of my head. It felt great and the relaxation was such that for a few weeks I had trouble forming sentences.

Stress hormones are a compensation to keep you alive and functional. If you lower them you need to fix the underlying issues to gain full functionality.

I would suggest a temperature reset. It might teach the body to function at a normal temperature without high stress hormone levels.

I take MB, I started the T3 only temp reset but stopped responding halfway through, so I stopped. Plus it seems very "brute force" and I don't really understand the science behind it.

I think I am similar.
Once I blocked estrogen and cortisol, I was like "Hello? Hello?" Where's my good ole self who can work several jobs and train aikido six classes per week? She exists no more.
I don't want to go back though.
I do think I was always dopamine /epinephrine dominant type. I do miss the "energy".
I think the "stress" of that over-active 'productivity' simultaneous to environmental and personal stresses (nasty people) would have changed me whether or not I adopted Peat ideas. It had to give anyway.
Recently, I have added another cup of coffee or I'll pop a 100mg caffeine capsule. That has helped. Ray Peat the comedian said cocaine was safer than estrogen.
I don't want to try cocaine and I don't want the estrogen.
Coffee, taurine, thiamine all help. But I do need a 20 minute nap in the afternoon.
If nibbling T3 every hour helps, then maybe it is what you need???

I suspect that I do have low taurine but it didn't feel good when I tried supplementing it. I wonder how to increase its production naturally.

 

[lampofred]

I felt stuck in high SNS mode for my first years of attempting metabolic improvement. I also had low TSH and zero luck with T4/T3 combo. After many iterations of lifestyle changes that didn't move the dial, I tried bodywork and have had some success with that (somatic experiencing, rolfing). I now experience temp increases from twice per day T3 in a way that feels different from adrenaline rushes to me.

Also found some interesting nervous system balancing suggestions from occupational therapists in the book Too Loud Too Bright Too Fast Too Tight...things I never would've thought of like jumping on a trampoline. The general idea: improving your brain's ability to correctly interpret body sensations (from both internal/external sources) as NOT being threats will calm the nervous system.

Currently trying acupuncture but I don't think it's helping. Will check out the book.

 

[Hans]

I think Vit D is one of the few healthy ways to lower cortisol, since most other things that lower cortisol end up lowering functionality, but so far taking it hasn't helped me respond to thyroid.

How do you respond to glycine? Have you tried cordyceps or rhodiola or ginseng?

 

[lampofred]

How do you respond to glycine? Have you tried cordyceps or rhodiola or ginseng?

I see benefits in small amounts but larger amounts seem to start having negative effects. I'm trying acupuncture and I think the herbs I was given have those ingredients. I did feel a benefit for heart and brain function but not for thyroid/cortisol/metabolism.

 

[Hans]

I see benefits in small amounts but larger amounts seem to start having negative effects. I'm trying acupuncture and I think the herbs I was given have those ingredients. I did feel a benefit for heart and brain function but not for thyroid/cortisol/metabolism.

Cordyceps and rhodiola should help lower stress hormones and increase ATP. As ATP increase, glutamate will decrease.
Noradrenaline can inhibit thyroid hormone entry into a cell, so lower that and stress in general should help with thyroid hormone utilization.

 

[lampofred]

Cordyceps and rhodiola should help lower stress hormones and increase ATP. As ATP increase, glutamate will decrease.
Noradrenaline can inhibit thyroid hormone entry into a cell, so lower that and stress in general should help with thyroid hormone utilization.

Thanks. In addition to things like cordyceps and rhodiola, do you know what foods/activites could help to shift from excess uncoupled heat production to more ATP production? I think RP mentioned low PUFA, fructose, vitamin D, basically anything that lowers phosphate would help, but I'm not sure what else. CO2 probably but CO2 is too broad, it helps with basically everything...

 

[Hans]

Thanks. In addition to things like cordyceps and rhodiola, do you know what foods/activites could help to shift from excess uncoupled heat production to more ATP production? I think RP mentioned low PUFA, fructose, vitamin D, basically anything that lowers phosphate would help, but I'm not sure what else. CO2 probably but CO2 is too broad, it helps with basically everything...

Basically adrenaline and cortisol can cause excess heat production. I'm sure phosphate is also involved. Excess PTH can contribute to mood disorders such as excess wakefulness.

What symptoms do you have exactly?

 

[lampofred]

Basically adrenaline and cortisol can cause excess heat production. I'm sure phosphate is also involved. Excess PTH can contribute to mood disorders such as excess wakefulness.

What symptoms do you have exactly?

In the broadest sense I don't respond to thyroid so I'm reliant on stress hormones for energy. I want to start responding to thyroid instead of going hypo whenever I take anymore than .5 grains of T4+T3 for a few days.

 

[Hans]

In the broadest sense I don't respond to thyroid so I'm reliant on stress hormones for energy. I want to start responding to thyroid instead of going hypo whenever I take anymore than .5 grains of T4+T3 for a few days.

Yeah but what are your symptoms?

 

[Fexxx]

I know exactly how you feel. When i started with tiny amounts of T3 it made me (to) relaxed. Over months I increased the dosage. Now i take 3x20mcg (CT3M) and feel good (warm, awake and relaxed)

 

[YourUniverse]

I realize that your question is "Why?"

I wonder if the answer could be genetic. Our bodies have different sizes, our organs different shapes, it wouldnt be wild to think we are predisposed to run on different fuels.

 

[lampofred]

@lampofred
When you have time, please have a look on Dr Fuad Lechìn's works. Check his website, his pedigree. Try to put your hands on his book: Neurocircuitry and Neuroautonomic Disorders: Reviews and Therapeutic Strategies. You can easily download it online.
The guy, like RP, lives on another scientific planet. But his knowledge on ANS is unsurpassed. It's technical but worth every effort.

Just finished the book. Much of the super technical stuff went over my head but good read. Thanks for posting. Very interesting approach of using ratios between neurotransmitters as a way to diagnose health issues. Great knowledge for the future but as for this particular issue I don't think there was any magic bullet...(as I expected but still unfortunate).

I think my issue is just excess aromatase. And I don't think there's any way to truly lower aromatase in a broad way aside from PUFA depletion or the Bohr effect, moving to a high altitude or adapting to sleep deprivation. I think things like eating more anti-aromtase foods like cruciferous vegetables or taking anti-aromtase supplements would have only subtle benefits in the grand scheme of things.

 

[lampofred]

Yeah but what are your symptoms?

Typical hypo symptoms, quick to fatigue, lack of deep sleep, poor concentration, etc., plus if I want to do anything I have to rely on stress-driven energy from something like coffee, and if I do anything that lowers cortisol (such as just a bit of alcohol), I turn into a potato. I think someone who is running on thyroid as opposed to stress would have stable, relaxed energy which isn't so fragile.

 

[Hans]

Typical hypo symptoms, quick to fatigue, lack of deep sleep, poor concentration, etc., plus if I want to do anything I have to rely on stress-driven energy from something like coffee, and if I do anything that lowers cortisol (such as just a bit of alcohol), I turn into a potato. I think someone who is running on thyroid as opposed to stress would have stable, relaxed energy which isn't so fragile.

Could be parasympathetic nervous system dominance, excess GABA or just serotonin inhibiting neural dopamine and noradrenaline release. Do you experience mood disoders such as panic, anxiety or depression?

 

[lampofred]

Could be parasympathetic nervous system dominance, excess GABA or just serotonin inhibiting neural dopamine and noradrenaline release. Do you experience mood disoders such as panic, anxiety or depression?

Not panic, anxiety, or depression but I think I might have schizoid/autistic tendencies, I live in my head far more than the average person does. I'm sure high serotonin is involved but I think lowering 5ht is as complicated and broad an endeavor as lowering aromatase. Unfortunately the only way forward I see right now is moving to a high altitude.

 

[mangoes]

@Wilfrid @lampofred
sorry I must be dumb but I can’t find that book online just to buy a copy for like 200. Do either of you have a link?

 

[lampofred]

@Wilfrid @lampofred
sorry I must be dumb but I can’t find that book online just to buy a copy for like 200. Do either of you have a link?

gen.lib.rus.ec

 

[Lejeboca]

The t4 in combination t4+t3 doesn't convert to t3 and actually drops my temps, and I only ever feel thyroid activity from nibbling t3 but I quickly stop responding even to that, plus it is not sustainable to nibble t3 every hour for the rest of my life. After I tried t3 I truly felt that I have had zero natural thyroid/progesterone since my early teens.

Just listened to Georgi's conversation with Danny Roddy about NO. Georgi has referred to Ray as suggesting to someone that if they do not respond to thyroid and cannot raise their temps this way, then they might want to work on lowering their nitric oxide: MB+red light. Maybe, add copper to your diet.

I think my issue is just excess aromatase. And I don't think there's any way to truly lower aromatase in a broad way aside from PUFA depletion or the Bohr effect, moving to a high altitude or adapting to sleep deprivation. I think things like eating more anti-aromtase foods like cruciferous vegetables or taking anti-aromtase supplements would have only subtle benefits in the grand scheme of things.

Judging by your lethargic symptoms symptoms, it does not look that you have excess aromatase, which leads to excess estrogen.
Excess estrogen feels like jitters, almost like coffee, but with less joy and expanse, more like "verbal shower" .

I live in my head far more than the average person does

Ethanol extract of rosemary: 3 drops in the morning as needed helped me to combat high morning cortisol and circular thoughts.

 

[redsun]

Not panic, anxiety, or depression but I think I might have schizoid/autistic tendencies, I live in my head far more than the average person does. I'm sure high serotonin is involved but I think lowering 5ht is as complicated and broad an endeavor as lowering aromatase. Unfortunately the only way forward I see right now is moving to a high altitude.

Lack of panic and anxiety probably means noradrenaline is low and therefore as Hans was suggesting I think your PNS overpowers the SNS when you aren't on any stimulants. This can be caused by the stimulants such as caffeine. The more stimulants you take which stimulate the SNS, the more PNS strengthens to compensate and your own sympathetic nervous system becomes dependent on stimulants.

I agree that coffee/caffeine can be good for the liver, but you mention that you "can drink pretty good amounts of coffee with no agitation". This is indicating to me that you are now resistant to caffeine's effects at the doses you take it. Which is exactly what all stimulants do in the body. Eventually they don't work as well because your PNS strengthens to match the stimulation so when caffeine wears off your energy literally just dies because your SNS doesnt work without caffeine.

Just so you don't get confused, you need the sympathetic for energy. You kill it you have no energy, thyroid is not related here. Thyroid sensitizes adrenal hormones so you need less but they are needed for energy. Eventually you lose effect from T3 because it also stimulates and your body tries to compensate like with caffeine.

All fatigue is related to a weak sympathetic nervous system.

So you can rely on caffeine for the boost which is fine, or you can wean off and then eventually your SNS will start to work again as you withdraw. Or you can do neither and just wean off the caffeine until you have only maybe a cup or two worth of caffeine a day. I don't know how much caffeine you intake daily.