Scalp Massages To Stop/halt Hairloss 2020?

[Steve123]

Anybody tried the scalp massages to help with hair loss? 'Perfect hair health' by rob looks good with a bunch of case studies showing results. Can anyone attest to actually doing it and seeing results?
'Hairguard' looks okay too.

I wanna do it but im scared of the initial shedding that can occur.

 

[Matt C]

I would trust Rob at Perfect hair health over Hairguard. I've read Rob's book and many of his readers have had great results. Hairguard are always pushing products. Although to be a member of rob's website can be pricey, the book is all you really need which is cheap.

I've had a skype with rob and spoken over emails, very genuine dude. I've been doing some massages - not as dedicated as the book tells you to - and my scalp elasticity is much better and I feel like some areas are thickening but my right side of my hairline is still terrible.

The coolest thing i've experienced was pinching my scalp really hard and then one day i heard/felt a subtle pop. There was absolutely no pain wiht this pop and i started chasing the feeling and achieved it on other areas around my scalp. Spoke with rob and some guys on his forum and we've agreed that its the galea detaching its fibres. Since then i've been able to manipulate my scalp better.

 

[mrchibbs]

Anybody tried the scalp massages to help with hair loss? 'Perfect hair health' by rob looks good with a bunch of case studies showing results. Can anyone attest to actually doing it and seeing results?
'Hairguard' looks okay too.

I wanna do it but im scared of the initial shedding that can occur.

Rob is a great dude. It's a bit more difficult nowadays because his site is now subscription-based, but I guess he's transitioned into a full time hair loss researcher, so he's got to make a living. I think he's gathered enough evidence and pictures to show that massage done properly can reverse fibrosis and help regrowth (along with the many lifestyle changes like getting thyroid function up).

However, doing the massages on their own won't get you anywhere, and I feel like 99% of the people who bought his book only did the massages for a couple of months and then gave up.

There are several members who incorporated the massages on this forum successfully, and the common thread is that you have to make sure to not over stress your scalp, and also to stop the drivers of the hair loss.

The massages are not necessary to stop hair loss, in fact, they don't work for that. To stop hair loss, typically, just getting more sunshine, calcium and taking some aspirin is enough to stop the hair loss. To regrow substantially, especially if it's been many years, you need to undo the fibrosis in the scalp, and that is more involved. But the pictures are pretty obvious, it works, if you're healthy enough and you've covered the basics (vitamin D, thyroid, protein etc.)

 

[Matt C]

Rob is a great dude. It's a bit more difficult nowadays because his site is now subscription-based, but I guess he's transitioned into a full time hair loss researcher, so he's got to make a living. I think he's gathered enough evidence and pictures to show that massage done properly can reverse fibrosis and help regrowth (along with the many lifestyle changes like getting thyroid function up).

However, doing the massages on their own won't get you anywhere, and I feel like 99% of the people who bought his book only did the massages for a couple of months and then gave up.

There are several members who incorporated the massages on this forum successfully, and the common thread is that you have to make sure to not over stress your scalp, and also to stop the drivers of the hair loss.

The massages are not necessary to stop hair loss, in fact, they don't work for that. To stop hair loss, typically, just getting more sunshine, calcium and taking some aspirin is enough to stop the hair loss. To regrow substantially, especially if it's been many years, you need to undo the fibrosis in the scalp, and that is more involved. But the pictures are pretty obvious, it works, if you're healthy enough and you've covered the basics (vitamin D, thyroid, protein etc.)

Yeah man, he's definitely the dude i trust the most in regards to hair loss research by far.

I don't know hey, I've read all the case studies on his site and some say the diet wasn't that necessary for them it was entirely their commitment to the massage plan. Then you hear from others with different experiences - like Danny Roddy who improved his hair with nutrients and no stimulation. One guy on there didn't have any luck with massages until he increased his iron intake ( I wish it was that easy for me!)
Doesn't the massages aim to break up fibrosis under the scalp by increasing blood flow also?

I never go gung ho with massages for long cause my body temp average is always around 36.4 c so i feel like my body won't heal if I do them too often.

I think it's all about finding what works for you as repeated as that statement is. Now that i'm working from home i'm getting heaps of sun and my hair at least appears like its better than months ago.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yeah man, he's definitely the dude i trust the most in regards to hair loss research by far.

I don't know hey, I've read all the case studies on his site and some say the diet wasn't that necessary for them it was entirely their commitment to the massage plan. Then you hear from others with different experiences - like Danny Roddy who improved his hair with nutrients and no stimulation. One guy on there didn't have any luck with massages until he increased his iron intake ( I wish it was that easy for me!)
Doesn't the massages aim to break up fibrosis under the scalp by increasing blood flow also?

I never go gung ho with massages for long cause my body temp average is always around 36.4 c so i feel like my body won't heal if I do them too often.

I think it's all about finding what works for you as repeated as that statement is. Now that i'm working from home i'm getting heaps of sun and my hair at least appears like its better than months ago.

I don't remember reading about iron? lol. I do remember reading several stories/comments of guys who never got any results until they fixed their temperatures and/or stuff like vitamin D levels. Even Rob himself told me he didn't start to really become successful until he spent months outside with his shirt off and fixed his metabolism so his temperature went back to 37C (98.6F).

And from experience, about 3-4 years ago I did the massages for a full year without implementing the other factors, and you can guess it, it changed nothing at all, if anything it got worse. The job of the massages is to heal from the fibrosis, but the fibrosis itself is a result of constant problems. I think Danny Roddy has accumulated enough evidence to show why it's foolish to expect any kind of arresting (not even talking about reversal) of hair loss, if you don't stop the factors driving the hair loss in the first place. Vitamin D, thyroid, lowering parathyroid hormone, prolactin etc are basic things that are 100% necessary.

Stop the deleterious processes, and then focus on massaging/stretching/pinching with enough rest to stimulate your scalp tissues to reverse the fibrosis. Guys on this forum have benefited from things like taurine, vitamin E and aspirin. I think many other substances are helpful, but as you say, it's all about finding what works for you, and I think you were right to chill with the massages, if you haven't fixed the metabolic problems (or at least restored your thyroid function with thyroid supplements), I think Danny is right to warn against massaging/dermarolling. If you can't heal from the stimulation properly, you might be making things worse, and many, many people have experienced a worsening of HL with ''gung-ho'' massaging.

 

[Matt C]

I don't remember reading about iron? lol. I do remember reading several stories/comments of guys who never got any results until they fixed their temperatures and/or stuff like vitamin D levels. Even Rob himself told me he didn't start to really become successful until he spent months outside with his shirt off and fixed his metabolism so his temperature went back to 37C (98.6F).

And from experience, about 3-4 years ago I did the massages for a full year without implementing the other factors, and you can guess it, it changed nothing at all, if anything it got worse. The job of the massages is to heal from the fibrosis, but the fibrosis itself is a result of constant problems. I think Danny Roddy has accumulated enough evidence to show why it's foolish to expect any kind of arresting (not even talking about reversal) of hair loss, if you don't stop the factors driving the hair loss in the first place. Vitamin D, thyroid, lowering parathyroid hormone, prolactin etc are basic things that are 100% necessary.

Stop the deleterious processes, and then focus on massaging/stretching/pinching with enough rest to stimulate your scalp tissues to reverse the fibrosis. Guys on this forum have benefited from things like taurine, vitamin E and aspirin. I think many other substances are helpful, but as you say, it's all about finding what works for you, and I think you were right to chill with the massages, if you haven't fixed the metabolic problems (or at least restored your thyroid function with thyroid supplements), I think Danny is right to warn against massaging/dermarolling. If you can't heal from the stimulation properly, you might be making things worse, and many, many people have experienced a worsening of HL with ''gung-ho'' massaging.

Thoroughly agree. Thanks for sharing your experience too man. Makes me less anxious that i'm not massaging consistently. I'll admit, there were stretches of months were I did do the 2x a day and I didn't see results and actually felt like it was detrimental.

Yes one guy was a vegetarian and once he started eating more iron rich foods his hair made MASSIVE improvements. He's one of the case studies on the website. You hear so much about the dangers of high iron on this site that it's almost forgotten that low iron can be problematic.

My thyroid hormone production seems fine according to tests, its my reverse T3 that has come back really high, along with high cholesterol, low vit D, low iron, high cortisol (these tests I did over a year ago however) so its a clear picture that my cells aren't getting enough active t3 hormone. I tried Tiromel (T3) for months and it didn't really do anything which i was surprised about considering it seemed like the clear fix for my situation when I researched it.

I know Rob tried to get as much sun as possible but i didn't know he was much more successful once he did that, thanks for sharing that! Your posts have been real insightful mate.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thoroughly agree. Thanks for sharing your experience too man. Makes me less anxious that i'm not massaging consistently. I'll admit, there were stretches of months were I did do the 2x a day and I didn't see results and actually felt like it was detrimental.

Yes one guy was a vegetarian and once he started eating more iron rich foods his hair made MASSIVE improvements. He's one of the case studies on the website. You hear so much about the dangers of high iron on this site that it's almost forgotten that low iron can be problematic.

My thyroid hormone production seems fine according to tests, its my reverse T3 that has come back really high, along with high cholesterol, low vit D, low iron, high cortisol (these tests I did over a year ago however) so its a clear picture that my cells aren't getting enough active t3 hormone. I tried Tiromel (T3) for months and it didn't really do anything which i was surprised about considering it seemed like the clear fix for my situation when I researched it.

I know Rob tried to get as much sun as possible but i didn't know he was much more successful once he did that, thanks for sharing that! Your posts have been real insightful mate.

No problem, it's great to be able to share and learn from one another. I honestly believe sunshine, milk and aspirin are all that is needed to prevent hair loss. If you told a 20 year old guy losing hair to drink milk every night, to go out in the sun everyday and to take 100mg aspirin daily, I'm pretty sure all hair loss would be stopped. (aspirin takes care of the inflammation and stimulates metabolism, vitamin D & calcium suppress prolactin & parathyroid, and with enough sunshine, everything is better).

I know Rob recommended donating blood too as a very potent thing to do for hair. He wrote about his dad who is anemic with a full head of hair at 50. I felt great when I gave blood regularly. Maybe the vegetarian guy started eating better?

A lot of people experience that with thyroid, they don't get results. For me personally, I needed to take a lot of t3 in extremely small doses throughout the day, and the t3/t4 supplements with meals later on in the day. Honestly though, fixing your life has been known to increase temperature (i.e. doing what you want to do, instead of a boring job, leaving a toxic relationship, even getting more sun). Rob wrote to me once about that specifically, he told me that he and others experienced a bump in temperature from actively fixing problem areas in their lives. It makes sense, the more we activate the stress metabolism, the more the thyroid shuts down adaptively.

 

[Matt C]

Awesome. Do you have an opinion on coffee/caffeine? This site is very pro caffeine but then you see conflicting stuff out there especially in regards to thyroid.
Definitely feeling the effects of more sunshine. I've been doing 150mg of aspirin daily recently and i feel like that bumps my temp up better than most things.

I know milk didn't work for Rob. I'm gonna trial it again since being off milk hasn't done much i don't think. Do you have a preference in type of milk?

Unfortunately for me, donating blood multiple times didn't help my hair at all, but who knows what else I was doing that could of mitigated the donations..

Like I said in my first post, doing the pinches until I detached parts of my galea off my scalp feels like progress imo. the fact I can manipulate the scalp more after causing these fibre breaks appears like its only a good sign. Gonna keep it to pinches and some stretches once a day or every other day and see how this goes.

 

[mrchibbs]

Awesome. Do you have an opinion on coffee/caffeine? This site is very pro caffeine but then you see conflicting stuff out there especially in regards to thyroid.
Definitely feeling the effects of more sunshine. I've been doing 150mg of aspirin daily recently and i feel like that bumps my temp up better than most things.

I know milk didn't work for Rob. I'm gonna trial it again since being off milk hasn't done much i don't think. Do you have a preference in type of milk?

Unfortunately for me, donating blood multiple times didn't help my hair at all, but who knows what else I was doing that could of mitigated the donations..

Like I said in my first post, doing the pinches until I detached parts of my galea off my scalp feels like progress imo. the fact I can manipulate the scalp more after causing these fibre breaks appears like its only a good sign. Gonna keep it to pinches and some stretches once a day or every other day and see how this goes.

Coffee is great, but you need to supply sugar/food with it because it raises metabolism. There is even a study that showed how 0.2% Caffeine topical solution gives equal results to Minoxidil.

Overall, follow the Perceive, Think, Act motto that Ray talks about and you'll be fine. Milk is often a matter of intestinal bacteria. I didn't drink milk for more than 5 years between 20 and 25 because I thought it was bad, and when I started again, I had to drink very small quantities to get my gut bacteria reused to it. Start with a small drink of the best quality milk you can drink, at night. It's most beneficial before bed because it suppresses the parathyroid rising during sleep.

Blood donation is mostly good for health in general, so I would keep doing it I was you.

The fact that you can feel your galea becoming more loose is a great sign. Keep doing it, but also massage the muscles around the scalp, because the tension is there too! Don't massage it if your scalp feels sore. Let it rest completely. Just track progress in terms of flexibility, softness of the scalp etc. It's a good time to do it because summer is when hair regrows the most, so keep massaging to get the best chance of regrowth during summer.

 

[Ableton]

Blood donation is mostly good for health in general, so I would keep doing it I was you.

Blood donation made me anemic and lose hair. After taking iron pills I felt immediate improvement in well-being and hair loss. Just throwing that out there

 

[Ableton]

Blood donation made me anemic and lose hair. After taking iron pills I felt immediate improvement in well-being and hair loss. Just throwing that out there.
Obv. you already need to have low iron so that donation makes you anemic.

 

[Ableton]

Awesome. Do you have an opinion on coffee/caffeine? This site is very pro caffeine but then you see conflicting stuff out there especially in regards to thyroid.

I know milk didn't work for Rob. I'm gonna trial it again since being off milk hasn't done much i don't think. Do you have a preference in type of milk?

Like I said in my first post, doing the pinches until I detached parts of my galea off my scalp feels like progress imo. the fact I can manipulate the scalp more after causing these fibre breaks appears like its only a good sign. Gonna keep it to pinches and some stretches once a day or every other day and see how this goes.

Think coffee likely speeded up my hair loss, but I was abusing it @ like 5 cups a day. I think underlying pathologies leading to hair loss are speeded up. Now if you fix those, then drink coffee it's another thing and probably good for hair. Numerous accounts for that on here.
I drink 1 cup now in the morning. I often get diarrhea if I drink a second one during the day, on which I drink fluids (milk, oj) basically exclusively, so that's probably why.

1,5% fat milk works great for me. Get it fresh, I think thats a biggie. I wasn't doing well on non fresh milk. I'm lucky to get non homogenized, local eco milk in glass bottles. ****** heaven.
I crave nothing more than milk now.

While I did not hear the blops, I had this feeling of galea detaching from something underneath once or twice. Do you have to massage long to achieve this? How do you pinch, whats your technique.

 

[mrchibbs]

Blood donation made me anemic and lose hair. After taking iron pills I felt immediate improvement in well-being and hair loss. Just throwing that out there.
Obv. you already need to have low iron so that donation makes you anemic.

Interesting. Opposing effect on me. And in Rob's book he made a good case for it as a way to improve hair.
And his dad is anemic (can't retain iron) and has a full head of hair in his 50s while all his brothers are bald.

I could see a massive iron deficiency being probablematic if you're young and say ate no meat for years. I personally like clams best as an iron-rich food. But I tend to veer towards Ray's work, and he has said too that generally people who give blood have superior health. And I'm fairly certain iron combines with PUFAs to wreck havoc on many things like lipofuscin, and it suppresses metabolism. Sometimes it's a lack of copper that makes iron toxic though.

 

[Jack Earth]

I don't remember reading about iron? lol. I do remember reading several stories/comments of guys who never got any results until they fixed their temperatures and/or stuff like vitamin D levels. Even Rob himself told me he didn't start to really become successful until he spent months outside with his shirt off and fixed his metabolism so his temperature went back to 37C (98.6F).

And from experience, about 3-4 years ago I did the massages for a full year without implementing the other factors, and you can guess it, it changed nothing at all, if anything it got worse. The job of the massages is to heal from the fibrosis, but the fibrosis itself is a result of constant problems. I think Danny Roddy has accumulated enough evidence to show why it's foolish to expect any kind of arresting (not even talking about reversal) of hair loss, if you don't stop the factors driving the hair loss in the first place. Vitamin D, thyroid, lowering parathyroid hormone, prolactin etc are basic things that are 100% necessary.

Stop the deleterious processes, and then focus on massaging/stretching/pinching with enough rest to stimulate your scalp tissues to reverse the fibrosis. Guys on this forum have benefited from things like taurine, vitamin E and aspirin. I think many other substances are helpful, but as you say, it's all about finding what works for you, and I think you were right to chill with the massages, if you haven't fixed the metabolic problems (or at least restored your thyroid function with thyroid supplements), I think Danny is right to warn against massaging/dermarolling. If you can't heal from the stimulation properly, you might be making things worse, and many, many people have experienced a worsening of HL with ''gung-ho'' massaging.

One thing you didn't mention is that Rob also focuses on DHT blocking if MPB doesn't respond well to massages. He says that some people don't respond to any stimulation based therapies for years until DHT blocking is also incorporated

 

[mrchibbs]

One thing you didn't mention is that Rob also focuses on DHT blocking if MPB doesn't respond well to massages. He says that some people don't respond to any stimulation based therapies for years until DHT blocking is also incorporated

I think Rob does that because he's now affiliated with academic researchers, and the anti-DHT thing is basically dogma, not real science. In his research paper he makes up a convoluted argument for the role of DHT as mediator of hair loss, but also acknowledges that DHT is basically protective in every other tissues and in vitro. DHT is elevated in the scalp of balding men, but I don't think it is the culprit, because it is elevated in all inflamed tissues, and is protective in the prostate for example.

Also, he underlines how finasteride on average leads to a 10% increase in hair count, and how full androgen suppression is unable to restore full hair growth once the pathology has set in. I think the benefits of finasteride/spironolactone/cyproterone acetate come from the fact they're synthesized from progesterone, not via their suppression of 5-alpha-reductase.

Interestingly, in vitro studies suggest androgens are uncorrelated or even protective against calcification [48], implying that in vivo, androgens interact with unidentified variables to mediate calcification and fibrosis - English (2018)

More and more, the androgen hypothesis is coming apart at the seams. In the 60s, researchers showed that you could regrow some hair with topical testosterone. DHT isn't the problem at all.

 

[Steve123]

@mrchibbs @Matt C @Ableton @Jack Earth Great chat guys, thanks for 2cents!

 

[Steve123]

If you told a 20 year old guy losing hair to drink milk every night, to go out in the sun everyday and to take 100mg aspirin daily, I'm pretty sure all hair loss would be stopped. (aspirin takes care of the inflammation and stimulates metabolism, vitamin D & calcium suppress prolactin & parathyroid, and with enough sunshine, everything is better).

I will say though that this is not true, the combination of Milk, aspirin and sun will 10000000% not stop hair loss.

 

[mrchibbs]

I will say though that this is not true, the combination of Milk, aspirin and sun will 10000000% not stop hair loss.

Believe what you want, but preventing hair loss is simple. Danny Roddy has accumulated so much evidence to support this fact. Milk and Sunshine (calcium and D) suppresses the parathyroid completely which stops the hair loss. Aspirin prevents the inflammation which jumpstarts the degenerative condition of chronic hair loss.

I'm certain that a 20 year old who is just starting to lose hair could stop it completely with those 3 simple things, but to each his own.

 

[Ableton]

I will say though that this is not true, the combination of Milk, aspirin and sun will 10000000% not stop hair loss.

i think it would in some, but not all cases.
Lots of people lose hair because they are in a vit d deficiency.
Lots of people lose hair on protein deficiency.
Aspirin IDK.

I was only getting around 60g protein a day before peating and did have confirmed D deficiency at one point

 

[Steve123]

Believe what you want, but preventing hair loss is simple. Danny Roddy has accumulated so much evidence to support this fact. Milk and Sunshine (calcium and D) suppresses the parathyroid completely which stops the hair loss. Aspirin prevents the inflammation which jumpstarts the degenerative condition of chronic hair loss.

How long have you been in these forums? I don't think i've EVER seen one case of someone who has ACTUALLY cured their hair loss through the ray peat diet? Have you?.. maybe people who have improved their hair through thyroid supplement or something but that's different.

People who have any sort of result on this woe are taking thyroid supps or some sort of hormone/supplements or whatever. How can you equate that to the success of the diet then? You cant, ever.

I don't buy into Danny roddy curing his hair loss, he was probably never going to go bald really, if you see his hair, it's always looked pretty good, i've never seen a photo of his hair where it was receded at all, Maybe very mildly which from what i've seen SO MANY people have at a young age, and then end up retaining most of the hair till a late age, my father included, I've seen photos of my fathers hair when he was like 20 ish and had mild recession and he's 55 now and he still has a lot of hair.
All that happened with Danny Roddy was that he probably ruined something in his health through all the crazy diets or what ever he did and then thyroid or something just restored him to normal health, thus just improving the quality and maybe any shedding he was getting, i dont think he ever had that MPB where shape at all.