Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[narouz]

Is there an optimal Peat-derived diet?

My guess is there is one or many for each person.

Not pinning yourself down there I see, johns
Riddle me this then.
Would you hazard to pick the better answer of the two below, true or false?

1. A good Peat-derived diet would be milk and fruit.
2. A good Peat-derived diet would be peanut butter sandwiches and diet coke.

 

[narouz]

Yes, however when a logical chain of reasoning is conducted over and over again to show that it is becoming less and less productive to debate in this particular (circular) direction...

Such-
Trouble for me is,
there has not been a
"logical chain of reasoning...conducted over and over again..."

Rather, there have been
innumerable obsequious, cultishly insular, patently illogical efforts to avoid or deflect
answering a couple of honest, understandable, and basic questions:
1. Is there a Peat diet?
2. What is that diet?

And it is that avoidance and deflection that causes the circularity you speak of.

I would like to take a break from that particular discussion, however I think there is already enough material to draw some conclusions. Narouz, I wouldn't have expected you to be so unmoved by visionofstrength's effort, I admit.

I was moved!
I think it is good.
I simply don't think it represents accurately
what Peat would recommend to most as a starting point.

About the breaks, Such...
I am sorry, but the breaks are only 15 minutes every 3 hours.
Hang in there!

 

[johns74]

Poison obviously isn't part of any good diet.

It's not a diet when it's a complex algorithm that gives you one diet after you put in your goal (what you want to cure or improve) and diseases (such as leaky gut).

Another aspect is that the output of the algorithm would be many diets. For example, this is 100% optimum. This is 97,5%. If you can't find that food use this instead and it's 94,3% optimum. If it were another person, the change of food could've been less damaging.

And it's very hard to do, I don't think anyone here will be able to do it.

 

[narouz]

Poison obviously isn't part of any good diet.

It's not a diet when it's a complex algorithm that gives you one diet after you put in your goal (what you want to cure or improve) and diseases (such as leaky gut).

Another aspect is that the output of the algorithm would be many diets. For example, this is 100% optimum. This is 97,5%. If you can't find that food use this instead and it's 94,3% optimum. If it were another person, the change of food could've been less damaging.

And it's very hard to do, I don't think anyone here will be able to do it.

johns-
say what!?

 

[pboy]

Is there an optimal Peat-derived diet?

1. A good Peat-derived diet would be milk and fruit.
2. A good Peat-derived diet would be peanut butter sandwiches and diet coke.

2!

but you gotta also have beans with that

I guess if you had to say, it would be milk orange juice weekly liver, weekly shellfish, coffee, sugar, gelatin, raw carrot or bamboo shoots, and an optional egg or 2 a day

but then cheese, coconut oil, salt, various supplements, cream, some other fruits, greens broth, even occasional small amount beef or lamb, are all like...you shouldn't need them, or they might not be available, but are good in moderation or in certain situations. Then you have even another category below that with like...dunno, chocolate, coke, greek yogurt...we've been through this before! I guess you could make a long list of completely unacceptable, then more acceptable, then certainly acceptable

I haven't read that Olympic weight lifting post after a few pages it got out of control and I couldn't keep up, but I did glance at the RDA (rays) list and its kind of just that guys compilation of certain things Peat might've alluded to or said to specific people that called in....its not really at all what he would think would be ideal or he would do himself. Theres a problem with someone like Peat being so public and general, because like every master knows, from the zen masters to yogis to just a good parent, you have to say different things to different people in different situations, in specific ways...to be effective. The same advice for one person, or the same tone, might be unadvisable to a different person. Ideally though, he thinks you shouldn't need any supplements, and actually salt either. He said in an interview with strong enough thyroid you don't have to worry about adding salt at all to your food...yet people here take it to mean that he says add a ton of salt, the more the better, ect. Only people that are leaking it for various reasons would have to add some. For someone like me, the craving is 0, and any bit I add is just a burden. Same with beta carotene...'with vigorous thyroid you can take care of a lot of carotene', so I might be able to get away with some cooked carrots or juice or palm oil on occasion, but someone else might not be able to. Its like life man, every situation is specific, though perhaps the ideal for perfect health, as people progress, might start converging...for a given specific food availability palate

 

[narouz]

Is there an optimal Peat-derived diet?

1. A good Peat-derived diet would be milk and fruit.
2. A good Peat-derived diet would be peanut butter sandwiches and diet coke.

2!

but you gotta also have beans with that

I guess if you had to say, it would be milk orange juice weekly liver, weekly shellfish, coffee, sugar, gelatin, raw carrot or bamboo shoots, and an optional egg or 2 a day

but then cheese, coconut oil, salt, various supplements, cream, some other fruits, greens broth, even occasional small amount beef or lamb, are all like...you shouldn't need them, or they might not be available, but are good in moderation or in certain situations. Then you have even another category below that with like...dunno, chocolate, coke, greek yogurt...we've been through this before! I guess you could make a long list of completely unacceptable, then more acceptable, then certainly acceptable

I haven't read that Olympic weight lifting post after a few pages it got out of control and I couldn't keep up, but I did glance at the RDA (rays) list and its kind of just that guys compilation of certain things Peat might've alluded to or said to specific people that called in....its not really at all what he would think would be ideal or he would do himself. Theres a problem with someone like Peat being so public and general, because like every master knows, from the zen masters to yogis to just a good parent, you have to say different things to different people in different situations, in specific ways...to be effective. The same advice for one person, or the same tone, might be unadvisable to a different person. Ideally though, he thinks you shouldn't need any supplements, and actually salt either. He said in an interview with strong enough thyroid you don't have to worry about adding salt at all to your food...yet people here take it to mean that he says add a ton of salt, the more the better, ect. Only people that are leaking it for various reasons would have to add some. For someone like me, the craving is 0, and any bit I add is just a burden. Same with beta carotene...'with vigorous thyroid you can take care of a lot of carotene', so I might be able to get away with some cooked carrots or juice or palm oil on occasion, but someone else might not be able to. Its like life man, every situation is specific, though perhaps the ideal for perfect health, as people progress, might start converging...for a given specific food availability palate

Oh that was funny.
And true.


That salt stuff: I hadn't heard that. Very interesting.

 

[johns74]

Funny thing, the better my health got, the more salt I consumed.

 

[pboy]

all that means is that you needed it, in reality we only need like 500-900mg if everything else is ideal, tho naturally just by sodium in milk and other food youll probably get more than that

 

[pboy]

listen to this interview at 55:15, for about a minute or two

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIoHw7Jkaes

 

[visionofstrength]

listen to this interview at 55:15, for about a minute or two

He says that's for people who have good metabolic rate. Who here has a good metabolic rate? Anybody? Show of hands?

If you have a good metabolism Peat thinks you should be able to eat at least 3,000 calories a day or more without gaining weight, and produce at least 3 liters of urine less than the number of liters you consume (at average temperature and humidity).*

pboy, I love you dearly, and you are a wonderful soul. We're lucky to have you here. But haven't you described yourself as eating 2,000 calories a day or less? being extremely thin (6 feet, 130 pounds?), and unable to drink much without feeling bloated and having excessive urination?

By Peat's indicators, those are clear signs of hypothyroidism.

*A more accurate test, with fewer variables, would be to measure your exhaled CO2 at rest to see if it's 5-6%.

 

[tara]

Wading in ...

I think there may be an infinite number of possible Peat-derived or Peat-inspired protocols, but not THE Peat Protocol, except perhaps for a very general one. I don't see any harm in describing many such protocols that people have found useful, as long as they are acknowledged as specific instances devised by individuals with some conntext, and not inaccurately described as Peat's Protocol.

Eg there might be:
'VoS's Peat-inspired protocol for lean mass gain'/'VoSDA protocol'
'thumbelina's 2015 experimental Peat-derived protocol for improving insulin resistance',
'rumplestiltskin's succesful 2012 protocol while resolving Y stage cancer of the Z'
'Danny Roddy's 'Hair Like a Fox' protocol.
'nemo's example protocol for hypothyroid recovery'
'tara's experimental Peat-inspired protocol for ending migraine', versions 1 - 27 and counting, and I guess
X's Peat-inspired diet for the tropics
Y's Peat-inspired diet for northern European winter
'Peat's personal habitual diet 2014', as posted here last year. Possibly with US and Mexican variants.

There would of course be some common features between many of them, as pboy referred to above, but they won't and shouldn't all be the same.

I also think more summaries of some of Peat's key ideas about particular principles and about particular key foods could well be helpful. I know I found Danny Roddy's writing and Josh Rubin's youtube videos helpful for starting to get a handle on this information.
As always, I think it is important to distinguish what Peat has actually said from any additional conclusions we may draw.
One reason I put dates in, is because we change what we do as we learn, and so does Peat, and also as johns said, what is optimal for a particular person often changes over time.

 

[visionofstrength]

Peat said that traditionally limed corn
was "almost like a niacinamide supplement."

Yes, I think niacin is in corn, too, but it seems
he doesn't actually eat limed corn unless he is in mexico? Or am I wrong?

It's really hard to find good GMO-free corn, so corn can't be on (at least my) list of food/supplements I would consider taking in any quantity regularly. But I haven't asked, since for me it's too obvious to bother him with.

[Edit: new2012 attributes a quote to him that "I think it's important to avoid GMO foods..."
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=623&p=4252]

You can get...what's it called?...masa harina, gmo-free, pretty easily I would think.
If you live in USA, Whole Foods carries a brand of taco shells made with limed corn.
Of course this opens to question the efficacy of eating masa harina products...starch, ya know...

n, I've not seen a non-GMO taco shell made with limed corn and low PUFAs.

This one at Whole Foods is organic (non-GMO) but not limed corn and has 6.5 grams unsaturated fats per 2 shells (26 grams).
http://www.fooducate.com/app#page=produ ... 31380C180E

In those 26 grams there may be .5 mg of niacin. That's 6.5 mg of unsaturated fats to gain .5 mg of niacin?

Do you remember where Peat said, traditionally limed corn
was "almost like a niacinamide supplement."

That phrase does not come up at all in a google search.

 

[visionofstrength]

tara's experimental Peat-inspired protocol for ending migraine', versions 1 - 27 and counting, and I guess

Can you tell me a little about your experimental protocol for ending migraines and how it differs from the proposed RDAs?

How many of the proposed RDAs are the same as your protocol?

 

[visionofstrength]

You can get...what's it called?...masa harina, gmo-free, pretty easily I would think.

I see this:

I own a health food store and research all products I carry to assure that they don’t contain GMOs. The Bob’s Red Mill has become employee-owned, and the company has assured me that they don’t use GMO ingredients, including the corn in their Masa Harina. In fact their Masa Harina is the only GMO-free brand I can find unless I want to purchase fifty kilos of the stuff.

source: comments of http://nourishedkitchen.com/gmo-free-food/

But again, .05 mg niacin per 26 grams.

 

[sm1693]

I think I will side with Narouz and VoS here, there probably is a 80-90% optimum human diet (as in we could write 80 or 90 percent of it in stone for most all human beings). At least this is what my intuition tells me is correct.

If you look at Mittir's personal diet from a few months back, you will see it looks very similar to VoS' recommendation for the "perfect" diet. My own diet is very similar to both of these and I would gauge my current health as being better than it has ever been.

The distinction (imo) is that we 3 are possibly ALREADY near the end of the path towards optimum health whereas some other people are somewhere along the path dealing with health issues. Perhaps the people at the beginning or middle of the path need a slow, churning conversion into the optimum diet.

It has been quite difficult for me to continually change my diet every week over the course of a year. For instance, 8-9 months ago, I could not ingest carbonates without it destroying stomach acid and causing pain. Now I take in many a mg of them in the normal course of a day. I think there are many examples of foods and supplements that can go from untolerable --> tolerable.

It's hard enough for someone to try something new like this dietary style, and THEN they have to continually re-assess where they are, re-study the essays, re-compare themselves to their peer RPers, and decide on a new course of action... continually, for a year or more.

I think you have to be an EXTREME self starter to do and complete the process described above. Not many of these people exist.

I think the likeliest explanation for someone that says that they do best on a ton of starches (starches are a random example), is that they have become deeply entrenched in their position. They have set starch products they buy in a set order at the grocery store, they know how to prepare starchy food dishes. They have told their friends how great they are doing on their new starch friendly version of the "ray peat diet."

I have seen far too many people completely unable to enact ANY meaningful change in their own lives to believe these outliers that diverge from what appears (logically, to me) to be the optimum RP inspired diet. I hate to appear so cynical sounding, but we have to base opinions off of the behaviors we've seen repeated so often in our lives.

And, since this is one of the only dietary styles with actual numerical metrics (t3, co2, etc) behind it, I think that we could actually PROVE what is the optimum RP inspired diet, someday soon...

 

[Philomath]

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone on this forum has attained health like Dr. Peat by just changing their diet alone..

Phi-
I don't know why you want to give up on this general approach so quickly!
I believe if you talked to Peat personally
that is exactly what he would advise--
to start with the food-based dietary recommendations
and eschew the supplements.
Then some patience,
red light,
bag breathing,
etc....

I haven't given up, quite the contrary. I've seen some decent improvements since starting 2 years ago. But nothing like Blossoms or VisionOS. I really just feel like I'm missing something. That's why I'm interested in VisionOS's lists.
My quote there is serious - has anyone here in the forum improved their health, to Peat levels, just with food alone?

I'm sorry, Phil.
I got it into my head that you had just recently started "Peating,"
probably from your initial post...

"I've been on the forum for several months now and I've heard various terms for the Dr. Peat way of eating (peating, peat diet etc.) Has the group ever considered a standard name for this protocol?"

No sweat Narouz. I was "Peating" before I discovered this site. I believe I am relatively new, all things considered.

I took a day off from this thread and after coming back, and reading some more, a light bulb came on:

I can understand the logic behind NOT making a protocol; it's complex and individual, but I can definitely see a need for one too. Most of us are happy to be here helping each-other, and we likely want to help people outside the forum as well. Therefore I propose we find ways to make this information more accessible, and easier to put in action.

First, a proper name for this "method of improving our health" would go a long way towards making it easier to find. It way by pure happenstance that I stumbled on Dr. Peat's work in the comment section of a Paleo site! Someone here, Such_Saturation? pointed out there are about eight or more different ways people refer to this method of eating, in this forum alone. If we truly want to help other people discover Ray Peat so they can learn to become healthy, we need to stop referring to it as Peating, Peatish, etc, and come up with an accurate, concise, understandable name.

Second would be a guideline. The term protocol may or may not work by definition, but it has it's merits. It could be called a method, a program or a plan but that's not what we should focus on. We should focus on creating a way for people to start Peating, without harming themselves or quitting for lack of results

Since there is a great deal of variability involved, maybe we should provide a Peat method that takes peoples starting points into consideration. My starting point would be considerably different than a teenager with ADHD, or a person with Parkinson's. If a someone can't handle dairy, they certainly won't use a protocol that recommends two liters of milk a day, or they may try and possibly hurt themselves.

Could we try to take Charlie's work with the General Dietary Guidelines, Dan's work on Toxinless, VOS's work on the protocol and combine it with the research Haidut and others have provided, to create a guideline that helps people begin Peating from a more individualistic starting point?

One good way to do this would be to create a thread having people detail their own journey from start, to good health... in just a couple of paragraphs. From those, we could get a better gauge on what the common foods and supplements are, and where they started from / what they overcame.

I envision a graph or chart or something visual that can outline a methodology that begins from various points - if you have better ideas for presentation, now's the time!

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[pboy]

na VoS, I am 5 11 130 pounds but 2300 calories is a bad day for me, closer to 2500 is probably ideal. I only get water retention or that spacey head when I drink like a cup of extra water, unless I ate a starch meal then I require about a cup of water, but its because my diet is already almost all liquid. Im fairly certain I have a strong metabolism, ive been sleeping without a heater and its like 35 degrees here and im fine, I go out with just 2 shirts on and normal jeans. And I don't use any salt, I haven't for at least 3-4 months now, im actually progressing. And if you saw me youd say I was skinny but not like in a weird way, I look more like I weigh 140-150. I never work out or excersize but im kind of just an energetic person in all I do, and can do a few pullups so im fine with that. If I got a physical job id probably have to up calories and I might gain muscle but as for now im strong enough for whatever I have to do in my life that 1 person can do

I actually haven't weighed myself in 6 months so I don't know what I am now, but the thing too is...I used to use a lot of salt when I first got into Peat after a vegan diet for a few years, and it helped me tremendously. Its something I gradually got off, and the amount of milk I consume still gives me like 1gram of salt a day. But I don't add any sodium chloride at all. Supplements can help no doubt but ideally we should achieve our health without them, or very little. Plenty of calories are no doubt important for this

btw I appreciate the love, wakes me up in a positive way

 

[cantstoppeating]

VoS the main reason your silly "The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat" thread got remained to "VoS uncoupling thread" is because you attributed Peat for discovering something he didn't for the purpose for which he wouldn't recommend.

And here you are doing the same thing by recording a list of substances that Peat recommended to individual people, within their specific contexts, as "recommended allowances" everyone of us should be using.

Why don't you ask yourself, like you apparently do, "What would Peat do?".

No, we will not call it "Ray's daily allowances" (RDA) but instead, "vos' misguided substances that he thinks you should blindly take" (VMSTHTYSBT).

 

[narouz]

I've not seen a non-GMO taco shell made with limed corn and low PUFAs.

This one at Whole Foods is organic (non-GMO) but not limed corn and has 6.5 grams unsaturated fats per 2 shells (26 grams).
http://www.fooducate.com/app#page=produ ... 31380C180E

In those 26 grams there may be .5 mg of niacin. That's 6.5 mg of unsaturated fats to gain .5 mg of niacin?

Do you remember where Peat said, traditionally limed corn
was "almost like a niacinamide supplement."

That phrase does not come up at all in a google search.

VoS-
The brand I get at Whole Foods is not the Whole Foods brand.
Seems like it is called "Casa Fiesta"
They are fried in coconut oil.
Actually, I'm not sure it is GMO-free corn...which I would much prefer.

 

[narouz]

I think I will side with Narouz and VoS here, there probably is a 80-90% optimum human diet (as in we could write 80 or 90 percent of it in stone for most all human beings). At least this is what my intuition tells me is correct.

sm1693-
Thanks for your thoughts.
I would note that the "An Optimal Peat-Derived Diet" I envision
and
VoS's "Peat Protocol" (or whatever he names it)
are very, very different.
First, VoS uses the word "protocol," which has denotations and connotations
that extend well beyond the word "diet."
And Peat himself seems to mock the word "protocol,"
for reasons which perhaps are not altogether reasonable--
so: given that I tend to think the choice of the word "protocol" is not the best.
Second, VoS's "protocol" is very much weighted towards supplements, not foods.
Moreover, the sourcing for nature and dosing of those various supplements
would seem to come from suggestions Peat does not necessarily make generally.
The context of those suggestions is not clear.
That is in contrast to the dietary summary I have in mind,
which relies upon well-known Peat sources
in which Peat is making general recommendations,
and consistently makes those recommendations more than one time--
so that we're not working from an isolated source or context.

In general, Peat is not a big pusher of supplements.
He generally recommends that people try to get their nutrients from food sources.

You will notice I have emphasized the word "general."
Because I envision a general Peat-derived summary,
there will necessarily be a lot of wiggle room, ranges, adjustability
within the general guidelines
for individuals to find what works best for them.
(Not an infinite range, though.
If there were an infinite range,
then we would be looking at Peat diets of chicken fat fried peanut butter sandwiches & diet Coke )

If you look at Mittir's personal diet from a few months back, you will see it looks very similar to VoS' recommendation for the "perfect" diet.

Hmmm...
I'm gonna have say I doubt this.
Mittir seems to me to scrupulously avoid most supplements.
True, he did refer to a few he took.
But seems to me Mittir tried to get most of his nutrients from foods,
and didn't do much mega-dosing of supplements.
I think he did do a rather unusual kind of Vitamin D supplement,
where he took a gigantic dose which was good for a whole month;
his rationale was that he could get that high-dose form of Vit D
in a very pure supplement,
and Mittir is very wary of contaminants in supplements, the few he takes, as I recall....