PUFAs Better Than Saturated Fats?

[lampofred]

@lampofred , I have, but honestly, I can't understand RP's articles. A couple paragraphs in, my eyes start to roll to the back of my head. I need "Ray Peat for Dummies."

"A diet high in saturated fat likely would impair insulin sensitivity (Vessby, 2001) and have an adverse effect on lipid and lipoprotein metabolism with concurrent risk of vascular endangerment (Danke, 2001) (Hu, 2001)"

The 3rd study seems pretty misleading. It is saying in the abstract that saturated fat increases the risk of heart disease without mentioning that all that the researchers found is that it raises cholesterol relative to PUFA. Dr. Peat explains why PUFA lowers cholesterol, and it is not a good thing. It damages the liver and destroys the ability to produce cholesterol in the first place (as opposed to thyroid, which reduces cholesterol in a safe way by increasing its conversion into hormones).

The 2nd study is just saying what the 3rd study says.

The 1st study is not comparing SFA to PUFA, it's comparing it to MUFA which is safer than PUFA, and they say the change in insulin sensitivity was only "borderline" significant. But even if SFA does slightly lower insulin sensitivity relative to MUFA, that's not nearly enough to say it causes diabetes and to recommend PUFA instead. Dr. Peat explains how it is actually PUFA that causes diabetes by killing the insulin-producing beta cells in the pancreas. I think PUFA does lower blood sugar at first, but that is because it increases fat oxidation & not because it is improving glucose oxidation, but people look at the lowered blood sugar and think it is beneficial (similar to how they look at the lowered cholesterol and think it is beneficial). The reason it is lowering cholesterol/blood sugar is that it is damaging you, not healing you, and the analogy I like to think of is that dead people can't get high cholesterol/high blood sugar but obviously their heart/ability to oxidize glucose is not in good condition.

The fundamental problem with PUFA is that it is not meant for high heat, high oxygen environments. It quickly goes rancid in our bodies and damages everything, especially the nervous, immune, & reproductive systems.

That is my understanding of it. RP articles pretty often go over my head too but imo he explains things very well in his interviews.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

@Rafael Lao Wai , this is interesting: "saturated fat doesn't overload the cells with energy, but PUFA does." Could you please say more about that?

This is something I first heard from @tyw, and it's mentioned in this thread: PUFAs Cause Obesity And Diabetes. Coconut Oil & Fructose Are Protective

I believe this has something to do with what Ray said about PUFAs with regards to stress response. PUFAs can cause and keep the stress response going in a self-repeating cycle, and stress can make you go through a lot of calories because of adrenaline and cortisol, while keeping t3 low, but saturated fats don't cause inflammation and, if there is a stress response, they will end it, so they help keep things at a calm, steady pace, while PUFAs make the system go haywire.

 

[lampofred]

This is something I first heard from @tyw, and it's mentioned in this thread: PUFAs Cause Obesity And Diabetes. Coconut Oil & Fructose Are Protective

I believe this has something to do with what Ray said about PUFAs with regards to stress response. PUFAs can cause and keep the stress response going in a self-repeating cycle, and stress can make you go through a lot of calories because of adrenaline and cortisol, while keeping t3 low, but saturated fats don't cause inflammation and, if there is a stress response, they will end it, so they help keep things at a calm, steady pace, while PUFAs make the system go haywire.

I would think the excess electrons are because PUFA is preventing oxygen from being used to accept the electrons and not because PUFA is more nourishing than SFA.

I think a good reflection of energy stores is the glutamate to GABA ratio, and PUFA increase glutamate, whereas SFA increase GABA. Dr. Peat said excitotoxicity = lack of energy.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

This is something I first heard from @tyw, and it's mentioned in this thread: PUFAs Cause Obesity And Diabetes. Coconut Oil & Fructose Are Protective

I believe this has something to do with what Ray said about PUFAs with regards to stress response. PUFAs can cause and keep the stress response going in a self-repeating cycle, and stress can make you go through a lot of calories because of adrenaline and cortisol, while keeping t3 low, but saturated fats don't cause inflammation and, if there is a stress response, they will end it, so they help keep things at a calm, steady pace, while PUFAs make the system go haywire.

But consider it from the viewpoint of the stressed, adrenaline-dependent, high PUFA person. If PUFA keeps the cellular energy high and fuels the stress response, that would explain a lot (it's like a bad cycle that keeps spinning and "powering" the person that they depend on/are accustomed to). If one eliminated PUFA from that state and quelled the adrenaline, the underlying, thyroid-driven energy (or one's actual metabolism) could be super bad and bring a person to an even more weakened/sick state.

I thought I had superb natural energy when I was running stressed/anxious/caffeine-fueled and in "wannabe super mode" -- take it away and I crashed hard.

It's like the concept of weaning off of something or a drug addict trying to quit and relapses in to a worse condition than they were previously in. Being stressed and "running on adrenaline" is how many people operate and have done so for some time (plus caffeine-dependent in some cases too). Maybe like @TNT said: we need "Ray Peat For Dummies" in a sense (I like that -- could simplify most of the "but" questions most of us would have, although I don't consider myself a dummy personally).

Could we be going at it wrong by suggesting people just drop the PUFA and try to switch off "adrenaline mode" and having them crash/fall possibly dangerously hard? It could be like pulling the walking stick/crutches away from someone who has bad legs. Maybe a better "transition" should be the ideal from PUFA to no PUFA and etc.

I mean looking at this from a bioenergetic angle, it might make sense that, say, some old person who is really weak in many key areas might rely on adrenaline+stress to do anything, including getting out of bed in the morning (and you don't even need to be old exactly either) might die if you tried to get them off these things since they have no other sufficient energy supply. It's like a really, really bad energy system adaptation -- that's how I see it.

As for the subject, I won't call saturated fats good without any possibility of bad outcomes being possible. I also won't say the exact opposite of PUFAs, but generally PUFA should be low and SFA should be reasonably higher. The reason that article like many others come to these type of conclusions is that they're often not looking at the bigger picture or the minute details very well, among other flaws/inconsideration. It's easy to just grab any study and find almost anything you want to assert/believe, but it takes more than that to get to the bottom of things.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I would think the excess electrons are because PUFA is preventing oxygen from being used to accept the electrons and not because PUFA is more nourishing than SFA.

I think a good reflection of energy stores is the glutamate to GABA ratio, and PUFA increase glutamate, whereas SFA increase GABA. Dr. Peat said excitotoxicity = lack of energy.

Yeah, I don't think PUFA is more nourishing than SFAs in any way.

SFAs activate the PDH enzyme, so you'll be burning more carbs and less fat after eating a lot of those fats than after eating a bunch of PUFA. PUFA will decrease glucose oxidation by a lot, so to make up for the lowered carb fuel, the cells will have to oxidize way more fat, a lot of which may be PUFA, and the CO2 levels will decrease. The perceived lack of ATP will drive more and more fatty acids into the mitochondria, which may cause it to back up. The electrons from those fatty acids may not even go though the electron transport chain and can react with iron, contributing to oxidative stress. As I see it, that means that the cell will be allowing lots of fat to enter its mitochondria, but the electrons will be improperly used or not even accessed at all. I think the confusion stems from me using energy, which can mean ATP, but a more precise term would have been energetic substrates, that is, substances that can be a source of electrons. PUFA lowers cellular ATP, while increasing oxidative damage, so I agree with Peat that lack of (usable) energy causes excitotoxicity.

Also, it makes sense: GABA calms you down while glutamate makes you wired. Reminds of what I used to feel after eating a lot of fries at McDonalds as a child: a very manic-type energy and inability to sleep.

 

[TNT]

I appreciate all the great info y'all are sharing! Question -- a couple of you have mentioned glucose oxidation. Is that a good thing or bad thing?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

But consider it from the viewpoint of the stressed, adrenaline-dependent, high PUFA person. If PUFA keeps the cellular energy high and fuels the stress response, that would explain a lot (it's like a bad cycle that keeps spinning and "powering" the person that they depend on/are accustomed to). If one eliminated PUFA from that state and quelled the adrenaline, the underlying, thyroid-driven energy (or one's actual metabolism) could be super bad and bring a person to an even more weakened/sick state.

I thought I had superb natural energy when I was running stressed/anxious/caffeine-fueled and in "wannabe super mode" -- take it away and I crashed hard.

It's like the concept of weaning off of something or a drug addict trying to quit and relapses in to a worse condition than they were previously in. Being stressed and "running on adrenaline" is how many people operate and have done so for some time (plus caffeine-dependent in some cases too). Maybe like @TNT said: we need "Ray Peat For Dummies" in a sense (I like that -- could simplify most of the "but" questions most of us would have, although I don't consider myself a dummy personally).

Could we be going at it wrong by suggesting people just drop the PUFA and try to switch off "adrenaline mode" and having them crash/fall possibly dangerously hard? It could be like pulling the walking stick/crutches away from someone who has bad legs. Maybe a better "transition" should be the ideal from PUFA to no PUFA and etc.

I mean looking at this from a bioenergetic angle, it might make sense that, say, some old person who is really weak in many key areas might rely on adrenaline+stress to do anything, including getting out of bed in the morning (and you don't even need to be old exactly either) might die if you tried to get them off these things since they have no other sufficient energy supply. It's like a really, really bad energy system adaptation -- that's how I see it.

As for the subject, I won't call saturated fats good without any possibility of bad outcomes being possible. I also won't say the exact opposite of PUFAs, but generally PUFA should be low and SFA should be reasonably higher. The reason that article like many others come to these type of conclusions is that they're often not looking at the bigger picture or the minute details very well, among other flaws/inconsideration. It's easy to just grab any study and find almost anything you want to assert/believe, but it takes more than that to get to the bottom of things.

I think that's a valid viewpoint. That's why so many people feel terrible after taking cyproheptadine. If you take away the stress hormones without bumping up things such as thyroid hormone, androgens, progesterone etc., then the person may be stuck in a stituation where their stress hormones aren't high enough to favor fat burning, but their capability to burn carbs isn't ideal, perhaps due to nutritional deficiencies, so they end with lower energy than before.

Perhaps keeping some stressors, such as a bad diet or some stressful exercise, and slowly adding things such as t3, caffeine in low doses, gelatin, fruit juices, some source of safe fats( butter, tallow, coconut oil, etc.) on top of your regular lifestyle, and when you feel that your youthful hormones are higher, then you can make the jump to a slightly healthier diet, and so on, until you can implement fully the more central characteristics of the "Peat diet": low PUFA, low intake of irritating fibers, more sugar than starch, no wheat, short exercises instead or long ones etc. By doing that, you could potentially avoid the limbo between the stress-producing, standard american diet and a healthy, stress- reducing diet. And I agree, for old people, making sure that the transition is smooth is likely even more important, since, without adrenaline, their hearts may not beat fast enough, for example.

If someone who is used to running on stress hormones adopts a healthy diet, they probably won't be able to handle the same circumstances that they once could. Sleeping just 5 or 6 hours won't cut it when your thyroid is healthy. Not eating enough also won't happen without bad consequences anymore, a healthy person needs enough calories everyday to maintain the euphoric, happy state. Many people in the modern world don't care about their health. If they can choose between either being healthy but having to pay attention to their lifestyle or being unhealthy but being able to make their bodies sacrifice energy reserves at will, many will choose the latter, because they have been trained to think that resting and eating right is "boring" and, implicitly, the way society works makes people think that caring about themselves isn't as important as studying or working.

Yes, reading studies can shed some light on quite a few things, but many things need to be sorted out through experimentation. It's also important to decide whether or not the study is flawed or made to fool people, there are so many of those.

Using stress hormones to live normally is really bad, but the alternative could be even worse. But the stress system of the human body is actually great in the short term. A short burst of very intense energy can help you escape a potential life-or-death situation, and it won't do too much damage metabolically as long as your overall environment isn't designed to make you sick, since the stress would have come and gone very quickly.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I appreciate all the great info y'all are sharing! Question -- a couple of you have mentioned glucose oxidation. Is that a good thing or bad thing?

No problem!

Glucose oxidation is a good thing. Peat says that CO2 generation is a very important part of health, and, when glucose is burned all the way, it produces more CO2 than fat, and uses less oxygen for that.

The Respiratoty Quotient is the ratio of CO2( produced by cells) to Oxygen( consumed). So the higher the ratio, the better, since that means more CO2. The Respiratory Quotient is much higher after consuming carbohydrate than after consuming fat. ( 0,7 after fat and 1.0 after carbs).

 

[tara]

also they’re missing the fact that saturated fat prevents ketosis because it promotes glucose metabolism, which is a good thing.

I'm not sure they missed it, just don't want it.
It is kind of funny though, isn't it? In order to improve glucose levels, let's do ketosis. In order to get into ketosis as quick as possible, let's stop burning glucose.

I have, but honestly, I can't understand RP's articles. A couple paragraphs in, my eyes start to roll to the back of my head. I need "Ray Peat for Dummies."

I found it improved with perseverence.

Could we be going at it wrong by suggesting people just drop the PUFA and try to switch off "adrenaline mode" and having them crash/fall possibly dangerously hard? It could be like pulling the walking stick/crutches away from someone who has bad legs. Maybe a better "transition" should be the ideal from PUFA to no PUFA and etc.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't think it makes the same kind of sense with PUFA. That's because
1.) The more you take in, the more you prolong the harm, and
2.) Someone who has been eating a lot of PUFA will likely have quite a bit of it in their system, and that will be released and continue to have systemic effects until it is gone - process that can probably take years, depending on how high the stores were to begin with. There have been estimates of 4 years. I think the bigger problem is that even when you stop eating PUFA, a stress event can suddenly liberate significant amounts that can cause trouble again. The withdrawal will not be abrupt even if you want it to be.
3.) I'm not convinced that it helps supply all that much useful energy even in the short term. I would expect lots of other things to have a stronger effect - eg just a little
coffee.

Question -- a couple of you have mentioned glucose oxidation. Is that a good thing or bad thing?

Generally good. It pretty efficiently uses carbohydrates for energy with relatively little/benign waste. It uses oxygen and creates carbon dioxide (CO2) at a good rate. A good flow of CO2 out of cells helps keep lots of things working.

Using stress hormones to live normally is really bad, but the alternative could be even worse. But the stress system of the human body is actually great in the short term. A short burst of very intense energy can help you escape a potential life-or-death situation, and it won't do too much damage metabolically as long as your overall environment isn't designed to make you sick, since the stress would have come and gone very quickly.

+1

 

[Cirion]

If your diet is correct the symptoms of PUFA detox are minimal. And by that I mean a diet friendly for your digestive system, ample calories, and any strategies that avoid fatty acid oxidation as much as possible (ie, stress). If the PUFA aren't burned, they can't hurt you. Better to purge them via other means such as inactivation via the liver.

Basically, if in the process of recovery you feel extremely bad, then something is being done incorrectly.

 

[redsun]

If your diet is correct the symptoms of PUFA detox are minimal. And by that I mean a diet friendly for your digestive system, ample calories, and any strategies that avoid fatty acid oxidation as much as possible (ie, stress). If the PUFA aren't burned, they can't hurt you. Better to purge them via other means such as inactivation via the liver.

Basically, if in the process of recovery you feel extremely bad, then something is being done incorrectly.

You posted zachs thread a bit a go from another forum and this was not his experience on pufa depletion. Yeh you are not supposed to feel like you are dying, but you aren't going to feel too great if you purge PUFA the right way, which in my opinion, is the pufa depletion via super low fat diet. The sooner it is gone the better. You can't make the argument that the super low fat diet is damaging because of all the PUFA is getting released. If that was the case, after losing the 45lbs, he should have been having serious metabolic issues caused by the severe purging of PUFA but according to him, and I quote: "So quick back story, i lost about 45lbs in 4 months doing a zero fat diet. i basically cleared pufa from my tissues and almost overnight raised metabolism." Doesn't mention a slowdown at all, only a higher metabolism.

This is by no means pleasant either but it works and it works good. Zach did this strictly for months until he dropped tons of fat and likewise depleted his PUFA stores and his metabolism just turned up just like that. Ends up saying he eats PUFA from natural foods and is doing great following an ancestral type way of eating aka eating according to where he is from which makes sense.

"When i went zero fat i was eating a ton of rice, wheat, fat free milk, egg whites, some beans, fruit, veg. Its not a very fun diet to be sure but it gets the job done for losing fat, ridding the body of pufa, and tbe higher fiber pushes toxins through the gut fast. Calories are a must though, eating at least 2500 a day."

And after depleting PUFA and body fat, his diet is based on lots of animal products, no surprise from me:

"The diet is based on animal products. I eat a lot of pork or all kinds, beef, lamb, goat, eggs, fish, and full fat dairy (goat milk, cheese and cream). Pork is my go to meat, i find it extremely stimulating for me. "

I think the damage from depleting PUFA quickly via VLF diet is way overestimated and likely the quicker the PUFA is out the better. He's a great case of someone biting the bullet for a short length of time with very low fat eating then reaping the long term benefits.

What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

 

[gaze]

You posted zachs thread a bit a go from another forum and this was not his experience on pufa depletion. Yeh you are not supposed to feel like you are dying, but you aren't going to feel too great if you purge PUFA the right way, which in my opinion, is the pufa depletion via super low fat diet. The sooner it is gone the better. You can't make the argument that the super low fat diet is damaging because of all the PUFA is getting released. If that was the case, after losing the 45lbs, he should have been having serious metabolic issues caused by the severe purging of PUFA but according to him, and I quote: "So quick back story, i lost about 45lbs in 4 months doing a zero fat diet. i basically cleared pufa from my tissues and almost overnight raised metabolism." Doesn't mention a slowdown at all, only a higher metabolism.

This is by no means pleasant either but it works and it works good. Zach did this strictly for months until he dropped tons of fat and likewise depleted his PUFA stores and his metabolism just turned up just like that. Ends up saying he eats PUFA from natural foods and is doing great following an ancestral type way of eating aka eating according to where he is from which makes sense.

"When i went zero fat i was eating a ton of rice, wheat, fat free milk, egg whites, some beans, fruit, veg. Its not a very fun diet to be sure but it gets the job done for losing fat, ridding the body of pufa, and tbe higher fiber pushes toxins through the gut fast. Calories are a must though, eating at least 2500 a day."

And after depleting PUFA and body fat, his diet is based on lots of animal products, no surprise from me:

"The diet is based on animal products. I eat a lot of pork or all kinds, beef, lamb, goat, eggs, fish, and full fat dairy (goat milk, cheese and cream). Pork is my go to meat, i find it extremely stimulating for me. "

I think the damage from depleting PUFA quickly via VLF diet is way overestimated and likely the quicker the PUFA is out the better. He's a great case of someone biting the bullet for a short length of time with very low fat eating then reaping the long term benefits.

What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

The problem is however is that your assuming Zachs is 100% cured and healthy because of that pufa detox, when in reality we really have no clue what he actually feels like cause people always leave stuff out on the internet, + if he does feel good and ends up not feeling good soon and stops eating an ancestral diet chances are he isn’t going to “admit defeat”. You say long term benefits but your doing yourself a disservice if you 100% believe he’s healthy for life now.(although he may be, but your making a bold assumption)

 

[TNT]

@Rafael Lao Wai , between your summarizing "the more central characteristics of the "Peat diet": low PUFA, low intake of irritating fibers, more sugar than starch, no wheat, short exercises instead or long ones etc." and your explanation of glucose oxidation, I'm really impressed with your understanding of RP and ability to convey his messages in easy-to-understand ways. May I ask where are you getting your info? I've read a bunch of his blogs, watched several videos, and hung out in Peat groups, but I still feel relatively clueless, so if there's one place you think I could get a pretty solid grip on Peat principles, I'd love to know.

 

[redsun]

The problem is however is that your assuming Zachs is 100% cured and healthy because of that pufa detox, when in reality we really have no clue what he actually feels like cause people always leave stuff out on the internet, + if he does feel good and ends up not feeling good soon and stops eating an ancestral diet chances are he isn’t going to “admit defeat”. You say long term benefits but your doing yourself a disservice if you 100% believe he’s healthy for life now.(although he may be, but your making a bold assumption)

He could be totally BSing, or partially BSing everything and we would never know. But what we do know is that dropping large amounts of body fat will significantly lower estrogen because of reduced aromatase, and likewise there is an increase in androgens the more the body fat drops. Its proven that losing body fat greatly improves insulin sensitivity. Lower body fat also means lower circulating FFAs as well which on it's own does a lot. As for PUFA, I dont think we are going to argue that it is detrimental, but I am of the mind that it is clearly better to lose it faster rather then in years the slow way.

I don't think he is cured for life, whatever that means. But he had a dramatic improvement of health. Of course if you dont believe it that's fine. But if you believe his words or not a temporary, very low fat diet is probably the healthiest way to cut body fat and the high carbohydrates and plenty of protein have a protective effect so body fat and pufa get slowly(relatively) chipped away in a few months while probably sparing his body from the PUFA somewhat. Again I dont really think the the short term damage caused by PUFA is even close to the damage that some here who still carry 20-30lbs extra cause by the increased aromatase activity which sticks with them for months or even years for some people.

 

[Cirion]

Uh, not even sure how Zachs story got in here? Yeah I posted that awhile back on my log, but I'm not using it as an argument here. I'm basing my own experiences here -- Whenever I try to "accelerate" the healing process (cut calories, do more extreme diets) it always backfires, I feel worse etc. But when I take it slower, all is mostly well. That's what I was trying to say.

But since Zachs story is now the topic of conversation, I wouldn't recommend following his exact approach (He used all starch and no sugar, and he ate way lower calories than I would recommend), not that it wouldn't necessarily work, it just sounds painful lol.

And yeah, very low fat has been my strategy for quite some time (although I am playing with *small* amounts lately since it seems somewhat beneficial to have around 40 gram a day of fat). The main difference between me and zachs is I eat higher carb, higher calorie than he does. I have proven to myself that eating too low calorie not only makes me feel like trash, it also actually halts my weight loss anyway. When I slip up, err greatly in my diet, eat way too little calories, that's when I feel like I have been smashed flat from a trash compactor (not only feel like trash but feel like compacted trash) and want to die lol. I wouldn't recommend that approach to anyone except MAYBE someone doesn't have to hold down a job, but even then, I'd be cautious recommending the "painful" approach.

I believe that Zachs is correct that low fat indeed boosts the metabolic rate and it is not necessarily painful either, in fact, low fat BOOSTS my own metabolic rate and body temperatures, so I've verified his experiences. Where low fat makes you feel like trash, is when you go too low in calories (Which is very easy to do on low fat by accident.)

-- sorry for thread hijacking btw.

 

[Wagner83]

Just as a reminder, later on on the other forums Zachs mentioned he stopped the low fat vegetarian or vegan diet. He claimed in the end it ruined his digestion, he could not stop losing weight including muscles. At the time he posted he said he thrived on a high animal products and I think high fat diet.

 

[Capt Nirvana]

@xetawaves , it would be helpful if you would comment on the specifics of it rather than just saying it's wrong.

It's easy to research Yellow Fat Disease. Cumulative Lipofuscinosis is the fly in mainstream science's soup.

 

[Cirion]

Just as a reminder, later on on the other forums Zachs mentioned he stopped the low fat vegetarian or vegan diet. He claimed in the end it ruined his digestion, he could not stop losing weight including muscles. At the time he posted he said he thrived on a high animal products and I think high fat diet.

Yes, I think higher fat diet is more optimal when you are leaner, and he found that out.

Until I lean out myself, its just speculation, but I am fairly certain SFA's have a distinct androgenic effect when you're lean vs. when you're not. For me, SFA's don't have much or even any benefit for my metabolism, I'm just too full of fats/FFA's, and stuck in fatty acid oxidation, for them to do any thing for me. But pufa depleted? Different story.

The studies I have seen that show SFA/fats to have strong androgenic effects, were usually done on young athletic lean men. I don't know of any studies (though I am sure they're out there somewhere?) that have done similar studies on obese/sedentary people.

 

[RWilly]

I think this is because of PUFA's effect on the micro biome. Endotoxins get absorbed into the bloodstream via chylomicrons during saturated fat absorption when there is a lot of gram negative bacteria in the gut. I have the feeling that the anti-inflammatory effects of PUFA are related to it's volatility in the gut against pathogenic microbes.

 

[TNT]

@RWilly , not sure I understand. How do PUFAs affect the microbiome? And how is that different than saturated fats?