Just How Damaging Is Too Much Muscle Meat?

[mujuro]

Good thing about pure EAA powder is the bioavailability, and not having excess protein trickle into the intestines and feed nitrogen-utilizing bacteria. I would estimate that close to 100% is absorbed (edit - “fully absorbed within the first foot of the intestine” is a phrase I seem to remember) vs the meager 30% from meat products, but I have no data on that.

 

[JustAGuy]

Good thing about pure EAA powder is the bioavailability, and not having excess protein trickle into the intestines and feed nitrogen-utilizing bacteria. I would estimate that close to 100% is absorbed, vs the meager 30% from meat products, but I have no data on that.

It’s for sure very good. I get no symptoms at all from EAA intake while something like an egg or glass of milk gives me problems already.

 

[Runenight201]

Wings are the worst part, as far as PUFA is concerned.

Maybe try some thighs/drumsticks instead?

The wings have a far too high skin to meat ratio, and I found myself having to pick off the skin by the end of my meal just to get to the meat, as the skin was starting to make me feel nauseous, most likely due to the fat content of it, and I’m sure the fact that it’s PUFA doesn’t help at all either.

Chewing on all the little cartilegenous parts of the wing was crunchy fun. But nonetheless I felt the most satisfaction from eating the actual meat itself.

I think I will try drum sticks next and stick with those. I’ve had thighs before and it’s far too fatty for me. I like my legs meaty.

 

[mujuro]

It’s for sure very good. I get no symptoms at all from EAA intake while something like an egg or glass of milk gives me problems already.

Eggs never agree with me. I assume the high tryptophan content is why. The proteins require 180’C cooking temperature to render them non-allergenic in people with actual egg allergies. I’ve always felt that when eating eggs, and unless you’re roasting them in the oven to achieve 180’C, you’re going to be ingesting a lot of protein content that is allergenic or difficult to digest.

 

[fradon]

In other words, has anyone had much experience with alleviation of symptoms by removing muscle meats from the diet? Has anyone done personal experimentation along these lines?

ihave been eating less muslce meat and feeling better. less muscle tension. switched to eggs and tuna fish along with beans and nuts. when i do ieat muscle meat its a small portion

 

[Cirion]

Tryptophan is actually necessary to convert to niacin which then activates kynurenine pathway. Therefore, far from being the "bad guy", in fact we NEED tryptophan. The catch is you must intake a lot of sugar in particular with the tryptophan, or the niacin conversion fails to work right. I just tested this today with an example tip from Nate's book and it does indeed work. I had a warm glass of milk with a whopping 1/2 cup of sugar and 1 tbsp of gelatin Normally a glass of milk puts me out but instead my temp and HR jumped up a lot right after this.

I now realize why RP loves milk so much. The man's a genius once you understand the biological processes.

It’s not all about the metabolism, I think it’s the combination of low chronic stress (good diet being #1 factor imo) and high metabolism while inducing occasional bursts of stress to make the body more robust (exercise, a 1 day fast, cold shower) through adapting to this.

In the past I have bulked up on 5000 kcal diet with tons of protein shakes and oat powder chugging it down all day. Massive endotoxin from this, the stress from the endotoxins actually exceeded the benefits from the raised metabolism. I feel better starving myself on 1400 kcal barely eating than I do when I did that.

Edit: by the way try betaine hcl supplement, it actually reduces my endotoxin response to protein quite a lot. I also supplement EAA’s so I need to eat way less protein foods.
EAA’s kill any protein food cravings I have by the way, If I feel like having meat but have a spoon of EAA the craving is gone.

I am also going to try a 3-day fast tomorrow. I know they used this in the 1900s for sick people who found food was “poisoning “ them.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Metabolism is indeed everything. If you felt bad and got massive endotoxin, that's not a high metabolism. High calories =/= high metabolism. Plenty of obese people eat lots of food yet have a low metabolism, it is infact why they're obese, because they chose poorly for their foods.

Oat powder is awful, I am not surprised this caused metabolic distress. Especially if it was raw and uncooked.

A 3-day fast at best may kill off some endotoxin, but it is going to cause additional problems of its own due to the stress of restricting food intake and if the situations that caused the endotoxin in the first place are not rectified they'll just come back in full force.

 

[lollipop]

Many see this as heresy, but switching whole meat to ground meat can be very beneficial, the composition is much more balanced when you eat the "leftovers"

I think there is some truth to this, I have even found a bit of gelatin in the juices. I cook it without any additional fat, just salt in my pan. I do not notice it when cooking, but the next day when, I take it out to make something, I notice a bit of gelatin.

 

[lollipop]

I agree on the composition. You just have to be careful about the "leftovers" freshness.

Also some truth to this. At Whole Foods I see them take from the meat cuts in the counter in front of me and grind it, again, right in front of me when they run out. Super fresh. I agree though with prepackaged ground meat. Only in an emergency will I make this choice, ie, Whole Foods is closed and I walk over to the Tom Thumb next to me and pick up a prepackaged grass fed lean ground. Never as fresh as Whole Foods.

 

[lollipop]

Milk has has higher % tryptophan than muscle meat. I do not understand this forum's aversion to muscle meats, especially good ground beef.

I personally have no aversion and this is my preferred meat source other than occasional fresh ground lamb and/or bison. Bison needs to be good though.

 

[Ulysses]

Over the summer I would drink a pint of OJ immediately upon waking, then follow it up with a 12 oz. ribeye for breakfast, with two fried eggs, toast, and coffee with cream and sugar. Never felt better in my life. I actually looked forward to waking up every day, which is extremely unusual for me.

Unfortunately, I’m back to dorm food until the end of term, but otherwise I would have kept doing this. I fully intend to start up again once I’m home.

 

[Lynne]

When I’m most free from inflammation my eyes aren’t depressed, and my hair is straight instead of wavy

I notice a similar thing with my hair. After a few months of a more thyroid supporting diet my hair hangs in smoother, flatter, more cohesive waves, rather than being more messy/random waves with a tendency towards 'bushyness'. The fatty residue on my scalp (and comb) has gone too.

 

[Runenight201]

Chicken drum sticks may be my favorite type of meat, and I don’t see myself eating any other type of meat for the near future.

I really, really enjoy the dark meat of chicken. The oxygen carrying protein hemoglobin is what’s responsible for dark meat having the darker color. Dark meat also has a different nutrient profile than white meat, being much higher in zinc, but lower in selenium and niacin.

However, dark meat has higher PUFA, about 1.5g more in a 140g serving, and this probably contributes to the nice smooth rip off the bone and a less tough texture.

The mental clarity and satiation I have after a chicken drum stick, rice and fruit juice meal is very calming, and after consumption of the food my stomach actually feels content, as opposed to many other foods that always leave me wanting. I don’t feel heavy or tired, which is a huge benefit on something I’ve always struggled with after eating.

Interesting enough, this is what all the rural campesinos in Colombia eat, chicken stick/thigh, usually in a soup called zancocho, which is made from the boiled chicken and cilantro/salt added in, rice, fried plantains, and soda/fruit juice to drink. I may incorporate steamed plantains and then I have a much healthier alternative to the fried in PUFA oil staple. I may try frying in coconut oil but I’ve never been a huge fan of the coconut taste. The rural campesinos usually don’t suffer from problems such as fatigue or laziness, and I would imagine eating this way is probably what provides nice clean energy.

Including some fruits, digestible veggies, and eggs/dairy makes this a very complete diet, and I will continue eating in this direction for the near future, with less emphasis on dairy/eggs, and more on the chicken drum stick, however, as always, I will let my energy, mood, and cravings guide me.

 

[somuch4food]

The catch is you must intake a lot of sugar in particular with the tryptophan, or the niacin conversion fails to work right. I just tested this today with an example tip from Nate's book and it does indeed work. I had a warm glass of milk with a whopping 1/2 cup of sugar

That might explain why 1 cup of milk with maple syrup and a dash of salt seems to be a good pre workout drink for me. I think I will be buying his book since it's now available as an ebook.

 

[Cirion]

That might explain why 1 cup of milk with maple syrup and a dash of salt seems to be a good pre workout drink for me. I think I will be buying his book since it's now available as an ebook.

Yes, I do recommend his book if you're serious about getting a handle on your health. A lot of light bulbs have gone off for me since I started reading it. I don't get any royalties so I'm not trying to force a sale, but I genuinely have gotten some valuable knowledge since I began reading it!

 

[Velve921]

Eating meat 100% disturbed my sleep. Especially if eaten for dinner. I use to be a huge meat eater during my paleo days. To have the most optimal sleep, only eating Gelatin, hard cheese, milk, and eggs keeps me sleeping the best by comparison to including meat on a daily basis.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Edit: by the way try betaine hcl supplement, it actually reduces my endotoxin response to protein quite a lot. I also supplement EAA’s so I need to eat way less protein foods.

as I was reading this thread I had in mind LIVER SLASH STOMACH SLASH ACID ringing in my head. Glad you beat me to it

Funny that you guys noticed the hair thing. I'm the same. My hair is trashed whenever I drink alcohol, or eat junky, or I use methylated steroids. The former I don't do anymore. The latter I limit to one week at a time... The junk food it depends. Chicken wings is my thing too.

Meat is okay with enough betaine HCL+Pepsin. I think we don't all have the strong stomachs and livers required to digest large amounts of animals. Ergo, supplement and support.

As of total content, a 3 to 1 carbs to protein ratio seems to consistently deliver. I've pushed to a 70-15-15% diet but 60-20-20 outperforms it.

 

[Motif]

as I was reading this thread I had in mind LIVER SLASH STOMACH SLASH ACID ringing in my head. Glad you beat me to it

Funny that you guys noticed the hair thing. I'm the same. My hair is trashed whenever I drink alcohol, or eat junky, or I use methylated steroids. The former I don't do anymore. The latter I limit to one week at a time... The junk food it depends. Chicken wings is my thing too.

Meat is okay with enough betaine HCL+Pepsin. I think we don't all have the strong stomachs and livers required to digest large amounts of animals. Ergo, supplement and support.

As of total content, a 3 to 1 carbs to protein ratio seems to consistently deliver. I've pushed to a 70-15-15% diet but 60-20-20 outperforms it.

Isn't betaine hcl dangerous? How much do you use of it? I heard some people take up to 6 or more capsules to one meal.
I'm concerned that it could hurt the stomach.


But I need to support my digestion too.
Ox bile for fat and maybe encymes

 

[lvysaur]

ihave been eating less muslce meat and feeling better. less muscle tension. switched to eggs and tuna fish along with beans and nuts.

Tuna is muscle meat though. In fact, it's closer to meat/poultry than whitefish are, at least going by texture (not sure about AA profile)

 

[DaveFoster]

Excessive red meat consumption has been associated with an increased prevalence of both cancer and heart disease, particularly in those with poor blood sugar regulation (diabetes); however, smaller amounts of red meat have very little association with either, and white meat consumption appears alongside favorable health outcomes.

"Dietary habits play a substantial role for increasing or reducing cancer risk. We performed a critical review of scientific literature, to describe the findings of meta-analyses that explored the association between meat consumption and cancer risk. Overall, 42 eligible meta-analyses were included in this review, in which meat consumption was assumed from sheer statistics. Convincing association was found between larger intake of red meat and cancer, especially with colorectal, lung, esophageal and gastric malignancies. Increased consumption of processed meat was also found to be associated with colorectal, esophageal, gastric and bladder cancers. Enhanced intake of white meat or poultry was found to be negatively associated with some types of cancers. Larger beef consumption was significantly associated with cancer, whereas the risk was not increased consuming high amounts of pork. Our analysis suggest increased risk of cancer in subjects consuming large amounts of red and processed meat, but not in those with high intake of white meat or poultry."

"Growing evidence suggests that effects of red meat consumption on coronary heart disease (CHD) and type 2 diabetes could vary depending on processing. We reviewed the evidence for effects of unprocessed (fresh/frozen) red and processed (using sodium/other preservatives) meat consumption on CHD and diabetes. In meta-analyses of prospective cohorts, higher risk of CHD is seen with processed meat consumption (RR per 50 g: 1.42, 95 %CI = 1.07–1.89), but a smaller increase or no risk is seen with unprocessed meat consumption. Differences in sodium content (~400 % higher in processed meat) appear to account for about two-thirds of this risk difference. In similar analyses, both unprocessed red and processed meat consumption are associated with incident diabetes, with higher risk per g of processed (RR per 50 g: 1.51, 95 %CI = 1.25–1.83) versus unprocessed (RR per 100 g: 1.19, 95 % CI = 1.04–1.37) meats. Contents of heme iron and dietary cholesterol may partly account for these associations. The overall findings suggest that neither unprocessed red nor processed meat consumption is beneficial for cardiometabolic health, and that clinical and public health guidance should especially prioritize reducing processed meat consumption."

"Red meat has been associated for a long time to an increased the risk of CVDs. However, recent findings demonstrated that despite the presence of heme iron and carnitine, red meat does not significantly increase cardiovascular risk when it is [consumed] in recommended doses. Visible fat and preservatives are the major issues in the link between red meat and increased cardiovascular risk, thus leading to a significant causal role for preserved red meats, especially if they are consumed daily. Despite some other links have been advocated, there is still debate regarding their role."

"Red meat intake was not associated with CHD (n=4 studies, RR per 100g serving/day=1.00, 95%CI=0.81–1.23,p-for-heterogeneity=0.36) or diabetes (n=5, RR=1.16, 95%CI=0.92–1.46,p=0.25). Conversely, processed meat intake was associated with 42% higher risk of CHD (n=5, RR per 50g serving/day=1.42, 95%CI=1.07–1.89,p=0.04) and 19% higher risk of diabetes (n=7, RR=1.19, 95%CI=1.11–1.27,p<0.001). Associations were intermediate for total meat intake. Red and processed meat consumption were not associated with stroke, but only 3 studies evaluated these relationships."

"Mean meat intake in quartiles ranged from 9.9 to 97.7 g/day. After adjusting for confounders, HRs of CHD in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quartiles for meat intake compared with the 1st quartile were 2.84 (95% confidence interval 1.29-6.24, p = 0.01), 3.02 (1.36-6.70, p < 0.01), and 2.99 (1.35-6.65, p = 0.01), respectively. In two groups according to meat intake, patients [with type 2 diabetes] consuming ≥ 20 g/day of meat had a 2.94-fold higher risk of CHD than those consuming < 20 g/day (p < 0.01). There was no significant association of stroke with meat intake."

References

Bronzato S, Durante A. A Contemporary Review of the Relationship between Red Meat Consumption and Cardiovascular Risk. Int J Prev Med
[Internet]. 2017 Jun 1 [cited 2018 Nov 12];8. Available from: A Contemporary Review of the Relationship between Red Meat Consumption and Cardiovascular Risk

Horikawa C, Kamada C, Tanaka S, Tanaka S, Araki A, Ito H, et al. Meat intake and incidence of cardiovascular disease in Japanese patients with type 2 diabetes: analysis of the Japan Diabetes Complications Study (JDCS). Eur J Nutr. 2017 Dec 8;

Lippi G, Mattiuzzi C, Cervellin G. Meat consumption and cancer risk: a critical review of published meta-analyses. Crit Rev Oncol Hematol. 2016 Jan;97:1–14.

Micha R, Michas G, Mozaffarian D. Unprocessed Red and Processed Meats and Risk of Coronary Artery Disease and Type 2 Diabetes – An Updated Review of the Evidence. Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2012 Dec;14(6):515–24.

Micha R, Wallace SK, Mozaffarian D. Red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes: A systematic review and meta-analysis. Circulation. 2010 Jun 1;121(21):2271–83.​

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Isn't betaine hcl dangerous? How much do you use of it? I heard some people take up to 6 or more capsules to one meal.
I'm concerned that it could hurt the stomach.


But I need to support my digestion too.
Ox bile for fat and maybe encymes

About 2 per meal high in protein (as in, dinner). Sometimes 3. I don’t really like the process of dosing up until it burns, I don’t see the point. Besides having to buy into again sooner rather than later